Is this intimidation or a good thing? I can't decide........

[markmcs]

personally, i'm not so sure i really wanna know what's in my vape. not that it would matter, as i spent over a third of my life knowingly and willingly inhaling known carcinogens and toxic chemicals wrapped in paper without protest...what's the difference except vaping smells and tastes better?

My thoughts exactly RedDeath; I don't get the sudden concern 20-40 year smokers have about one specific chemical when they never gave another thought to 4,000+ they'd been inhaling for decades.

Careful, guys!!!! I talked like that on a diacetyl thread a while back and I was attacked from all directions, LOL!! I got some members so angry, I was afraid to leave my house!!!! LOL!!...just a heads up from a veteran of the "what's the big deal?" wars!!!

 

[RippleInStillWater]

Listen all -- I was asking a couple questions about a post from a nameless vendor. That it is one who seems hellbent on flooding the forum with threads and wanted to hijack PIF, encouraging a post in Deals & Steals that wasn't a deal at all, is immaterial to me; this place has an obvious persecution complex, so what? I just didn't like the way that op was written, like a few of his statements he backtracked/clarified, but any encouragement of the FDA, etc. will kill this place and make our hobby even more expensive. I also think slamming the mom&pop competition is bad form, I know a lot of people would love to be at the forefront of this industry but IMO don't step on others' backs on the way up -- but I'm a sharing hippie, not a businessman. And I like MN, she's a little kooky but intelligent (People say the same about me!!!); this move actually surprised me.

I normally just observe, I hate fanboy attacks.........

 

[tiburonfirst]

just a few observations:

1. testing is a step in the right direction
2. i would welcome basic regulations for this industry
3. to be a tester you need not be a vaper but properly educated and trained

i will leave it at that atm with just one observation: recently a vendor apologized for an improper mixture, namely 90%pg/10%vg instead of the reverse, or vice versa. human error, mistakes happen - probably more often than we hear about - and not only in this one incident and location but, unfortunately, in this industry mistakes can have very serious consequences.

 

[keyzygirl]

I think its great that you guys are having an intelligent conversation about this.Its nice to see everyone comunicating and getting it out there.Lets just remember this is a social group and not the outside so keep the attitude out of it.PIF members have an understanding that this is a safe place to come and talk.No attacking or hateful comments and all is well.Thanks guys!!

 

[sbphotog]

maybe this is a dumb question but, if there is diacetyl (sp?) in food flavorings, and we can smell food that uses flavorings, then arent we inhaling diacetyl everytime we smell food or drinks??????

Actually there are reports of people getting lung obstructions from inhaling the steam from freshly popped microwave butter popcorn. they call it "popcorn lung"

 

[Poeia]

Assuming the FDA eventually backs down and agrees to oversee vaping rather than try to wipe it out, all of the liquid vendors we deal with now (except, maybe, DeKang) will be the equivalent of Mom & Pop stores. The big guys will be Philip Morris, Brown & Williamson, RJ Reynolds, etc. They've got access to nicotine. You know they're set to enter this market.

But that's fine. A lot of people will be happy buying standardized, off-the-rack liquid available at your corner store (also good for people who have an "OMG. I ran out of liquid" emergency.) But there's a reason Mom & Pop pizzerias thrive despite the existence of Pizza Hut and Domino's -- and lots of us will continue to want more than a "Coke or Pepsi" option. There will be room for both types of operations.

 

[Satharra]

Interesting post and it actually caught my attention. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with what David is doing in regards to testing. From what I read of the thread, he's having a third, independent party do it (Univ of Arizona chemists). Certainly you could suspect motives since he's having all flavorings tested but I believe folks are making a lot of assumptions about how he'll use that information.

Does anyone remember the infamous FDA letters sent out to various ecig vendors? One letter, in particular, that was sent to Johnson Creek was fairly insightful on the FDA's future plans. Basically, the FDA told Johnson Creek that lab tests were needed on their juice to ensure quality. It seems to me that this is a proactive move in light of the FDA letters.

 

[tiburonfirst]

Assuming the FDA eventually backs down and agrees to oversee vaping rather than try to wipe it out, all of the liquid vendors we deal with now (except, maybe, DeKang) will be the equivalent of Mom & Pop stores. The big guys will be Philip Morris, Brown & Williamson, RJ Reynolds, etc. They've got access to nicotine. You know they're set to enter this market.

But that's fine. A lot of people will be happy buying standardized, off-the-rack liquid available at your corner store (also good for people who have an "OMG. I ran out of liquid" emergency.) But there's a reason Mom & Pop pizzerias thrive despite the existence of Pizza Hut and Domino's -- and lots of us will continue to want more than a "Coke or Pepsi" option. There will be room for both types of operations.

the only problem i see here, poeia, mom and pop pizzerias cannot harm you to the extent a wrongly mixed e-juice can
and those pizzerias are inspected by the health department

 

[Sdh]

I think testing is great. Third party is acceptable of course. However, I have been anaylzing the threads. I am neutral believe it or not. I am only wondering why the vendor closed the thread related to diactyl? Why can't vendor disclose the known levels now?That thread was a big red flag for me...maybe I am wrong....I suppose if vendor could come out and tell folks the levels now(what fluids by flavorart this entity uses)...I would be impressed. I am not trying to be negative or anything. Honesty is the best policy.

 

[librarising]

Actually there are reports of people getting lung obstructions from inhaling the steam from freshly popped microwave butter popcorn. they call it "popcorn lung"

Thank you. I was going to post about that. Diactyl used as a food additive for ingesting is a far cry from when it gets into your lungs, and people have died from inhaling diactyl. Now I don't know about the other additives in the flavors and what happens when they are inhaled (not ingested), but I do know that if anyone continues to use diactyl as an ingredient in their ejuice, knowing its affects, is reckless.

 

[316lvm]

Having tracked down and read "every" post connected with this issue, here's my

The testing of flavors/juices is inevitable. It was bound to happen sooner or later. Regardless of how one feels towards FSUSA/David, I would much rather have someone in the community testing than the FDA. It is known that FDA testing has chemical manufacturers in their pockets, and testing has been "screwed" to show favorable outcomes in reference to the manufacturers. Take a look at what some other countries deem unsafe vs. the FDA. A good starting place would be Canada.

I see this as the community self-regulating itself than government regulating.

I also see this as a step towards standardization of e-liquid ingredients. It doesn't mean the end of Mom/Pop suppliers. To me it means that we, as consumers, can have the information needed to make appropriate choices when it comes to vaping. I, for one, would rather know what I'm vaping than not. This would also eliminate XYZ supplier from saying that they can't tell you what is in the juice because it's "the secret ingredient".

Before we all jump the gun on this, I say give it some time and see what the results are.
Again, I would much rather have someone in the community doing this than the FDA.

JMHO

 

[WhatAClumsyGirl]

I pretty much agree with 316 here. First off, Yes I buy liquids from FSUSA and a few other vendors. Maybe i'm one of those fangirls that people talk about, I dunno...but I think alot of people misread David's initial post . I misread it myself and wasnt sure until I checked all the postings. I think it's a step in the right direction, and as Angus said...it's a test of all the flavorings used..and I personally would like to know the results.

As for Mistress Nomad...well, she is a sweetheart, very intelligent girl...I don't know her qualifications but it also said she would be a consultant...I dont take this to mean she is being assigned as a chemist...she's going to be consulting with the lab on the results. And this girl is definately smart enough to figure out things that would fly completely over my head.

I would like to know what lab is being used, because as we all know from the various notorious criminal trials, different labs can come up with totally different findings. Different experts can manipulate the findings to suit their own needs.

So yes, I do have concerns about this...but I also am open to see what happens with it before I shoot someone down for trying to do something positive.

Just my thoughts

 

[bonniegirl]

My 2 cents
I have done clinical trials for drug R&D. For purposes of brevity, I will use Taxol, a chemo drug as a for instance. The drug was on the shelf at NCI as it was unstable in saline and thought to be unusable. The active ingredient came from a Yew tree in the rainforest. It was tested on mice and shrank tumors well. We tested it on humans. The study was paid for by Bristol Myers Squibb, who bought the drug from the NCI. They mixed the drug in another medium and we charted progress of patients. The study was paid for by the company that wanted to market it. Whomever does the study must put their professional name on that study and it must be peer reviewed to be accepted by the FDA.
That being said...It matters not who pays or who publishes as there are enough gate keepers to maintain a studies integrity. The owner of the product rolls the dice when asking for studies to be done. The results will be public. The owner of said product when asking for review can not "hold back" on the outcome or the conclusions done by the study.
I do agree with the concept of the usefulness of the study if the contents are not tested at vaporization levels, but none of us have seen or been privy to the studies parameters and the process that will be used. The study/testing has been very vague at best. It is true that we know very little of what effects these flavor components have on our lung tissue but....(and I am treading lightly in an effort to not beat the proverbial dead horse) I ask this question to all new converts.....
If you were not using your electronic cigarette would you smoke?

The answer is a resounding Yes. We all know what that will do to our lungs. I am in the camp of" harm reduction" rather than the camp of this is a "safer alternative." 4000+ chemicals VS 4-6 chemicals= harm reduction IMO, there are no definitive studies to show that vaping is a safer alternative to smoking. There is a study showing that only about half of the nicotine vaped is found in the blood stream of a vaper while 100% of the nicotine smoked or in nicotine transdermal patches is found. There are prominent public health physicians that will publicly testify that vaping is a less harm product than combustion. These physicians are doing so in the appeals phase of the FDA v NJoy/SE case in the form of an ad hoc group in an amicus curiae.

I have read everything scientific regarding e-cigs and was involved in the first phase of the FDA v NJoy/SE case and IMO(please no red state vs blue state mentality) Any study done will inevitably lead the FDA into an inquest into the products as it sends a message that we (Vapers) are questioning our own stuff and there must be a problem. IMO, and I stress, IMO only, this will lead to opening pandoras box. The only good study would be a double blind study of vaping plain pg and nic as one arm of the study, vaping PG, nic and flavors as second arm and then doing pulmonary function studies, arterial blood gases and a complete blood work-up prior during and every month for several years. We currently do not have any anecdotal evidence of long term effects though we do have vapers that have vaped for upwards of 4 years that have no ill effects and feel better.
In summary and using my own logic
If I was not vaping, I would smoke
smoking is a known carcinogen and lung tissue killer
I have been vaping for over 2 years and my pulmonary function is now normal (it took 18 months of vaping for that to happen)
My blood chemistry is normal...I no longer have a carbon monoxide load
My blood count is now normal, my red blood cells are normal in size and my hemoglobin carrying capacity is normal (this also took 18 months to return to normal state)
I am (on paper according to markers used by life insurance adjusters) a non-smoker and I chain vape at much lower nic levels than when I started vaping(24mg down to 6-12)
That is study enough for me.
If FSUSA wants to pay for studies, power to them. It is their money and their product. I do believe if e-cigs are given the FDA classification they hope for there will be regulations and taxation...both of which are inevitable. In addition, these studies being done will not be acceptable to the FDA IMO.

 

[Poeia]

the only problem i see here, poeia, mom and pop pizzerias cannot harm you to the extent a wrongly mixed e-juice can
and those pizzerias are inspected by the health department

Inspections would be fine with me. I hate that the nutritional supplement industry has no supervision. If it enters my body via my mouth, I want a government watchdog checking it out.

Government oversight doesn't keep small companies from starting. And it doesn't prevent some of them growing into big companies. The existence of Birdseye hasn't kept small companies that make frozen vegetarian dishes from thriving. My supermarket now has half a freezer devoted to Amy's foods.

 

[Sparrots]

Wow, a lot of good thinking going on here. I too, am among those who prefer a private lab vs the fda sponsored labs. Of course if the lab they choose meets FDA guidelines, I have no problem with that.

 

[Enid]

I really think the nutritional supplement industry has many similarities to the ecig industry.

The FDA wanted the supplement industry shut down and was legally going about doing that, but the consumers of those products were whipped into a frenzy by magazine articles and a huge lobbying group. Fear was played on and the lobbying groups got DSHEA, which gave them everything that they wanted. DSHEA made everything treated as food, which doesn't have to be pre-tested to be available to the public. The FDA can only step in when a herb, vitamin or even hormone has been proven to cause harm and since the FDA really doesn't investigate those things very much, it's free market gone wild.

The retailers of ecig products only dream of legally having it so good. All they need to do, to follow the nutritional industries lead, is to get a larger market share of the smokers and then lobby like hell.

I'm torn on the whole issue of FDA regulation. I would like to know what's in my e liquid. I would like to know that the companies that I do business with have liability insurance, have clean and safe areas for their workers, provide me with a product that I research the individual ingredients, if I wish. That said, if the industry can't find the money to do some real studies, then they aren't going to be able to lobby to keep ecigs and liquids as available as they are today.

((if you really look at the time period that the nutritional industry changed into a big business enterprise, it was DSHEA. that's when big business invested and bought out most of the mom and pop businesses. DSHEA kept the products legal but changed the industry overnite.))

Inspections would be fine with me. I hate that the nutritional supplement industry has no supervision. If it enters my body via my mouth, I want a government watchdog checking it out.

Government oversight doesn't keep small companies from starting. And it doesn't prevent some of them growing into big companies. The existence of Birdseye hasn't kept small companies that make frozen vegetarian dishes from thriving. My supermarket now has half a freezer devoted to Amy's foods.

 

[RippleInStillWater]

This is why I titled the thread the way I did -- this is all confusing at best and I like to consider myself semi-educated. I just don't want my ability to DIY screwed up by someone else's agenda; if its just marketing 'Tested 100% Safe' with no effect on me, that's ok with me. However, I don't think driving Nik and others we know around here out of business with over-the-top safety requirements is cool if that would be the end result.

I agree with you Clumsy, MN is a smart cookie, not sure what she's doing there for them but I'm sure its what she knows.

 

[sgtdisturbed47]

I see nothing wrong with this. It would be nice to know of all the ingredients that are in everyones juices.

The liquid we vape is a consumed product, so we have thew right to know what is in the juice. This is no different from knowing the ingredients of the food we eat.

If this leads to some of the competition being weeded out, then so be it. I'd rather know what's in the juice. There's plenty of new vendors popping up every day, so the ones we lose will be replaced anyway by new companies. Business is a dog-eat-dog world.

I am a believer in reducing the harm done to us by switching to vaping vs continuing to smoke, but on the other hand I am more for having vaping as safe as possible. I'd rather have it completely safe. If we are vaping nasty chemicals of any kind, we might as well just be smoking cigarettes. If safety is a point being pushed by the vaping community, might as well make it completely safe or as safe as it can get. Testing the liquids can reveal chemicals that might be harmful.

 

[spaky]

Assuming the FDA eventually backs down and agrees to oversee vaping rather than try to wipe it out, all of the liquid vendors we deal with now (except, maybe, DeKang) will be the equivalent of Mom & Pop stores.

Well Johnson Creek is a decent size and even has a pharma grade mixing lab with 3 airlocks.

 

[skydragon]

I hate to be the don't trust a businessman type but seriously, man is killing man out here, and all for a profit. We've seen vendors come and go in this vaping world of ours. And what trust can we really put into these strangers? In my opinion, if I can't see it happening, I don't believe it.(I'm a true show me state girl lol)

What say he does actually tell the populace that he did find this chemical? Would we know the difference if he took it out or left it there for profit reasons? I mean in 10+ years when the loyal customers of FSUSA turn up with lung damage I'm sure they can go knocking at his door then. But what accreditation do we have for these people or in fact any of them that would make this situation better?

I agree with Cyia that man is killing man all in the name of profit. I know we don't want to think of any of our vendors that way but I am willing to bet there are some that in reality could not care less about what e-liquid could be (possibly is) doing to us. We don't know which ones they are though.

As far as the second phrase I bolded, this is something that has bothered me for quite some time being the pessimist that I am. Hypothetically, let's say that we have some unethical vendors who are aware that what we are vaping is just as dangerous if not more so than smoking. They have the perfect defense! We were smokers! Any damage was done by smoking. The perfect opportunity to have no liability.

Let me preface my next statement by saying that I have no idea if what we are vaping is harmful or not. If so, I don't know to what extent. None of us do. But for those that want to once again say we were willing to smoke 4000 chemicals so why are we worried about anything now, let me say this. It can take only one chemical to kill us. That one chemical may kill us a lot quicker. So the "more harm in 4000 chemicals compared to vaping" argument, holds no water at all since we don't know what the actual consequences of vaping is. We are all just hoping. And in reality, we could all be horribly wrong. Just saying. Obviously, I am willing to give it a try with the same hope we all have that it is much safer. Yet, we still can't make that assumption and take it for truth.