Fsusa to start spectro-analysis of e-juice?

[Scottitude]

Ah the wonders of search - here is a relevant post - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...int-detected-testing-atomizers-batteries.html

Good find and props to that OP. I couldn't help but notice though that several specific questions about the actual testing process were asked and either answered very vaguely or ignored altogether yet nobody got outraged and demanded full disclosure, just a lot of back-slapping and praise for alleged testing for which there was no actual proof.

Not saying the OP didn't test he components mentioned or that he doesn't deserve praise for doing so at his own expense, just that everyone has apparently given him the benefit of the doubt and taken his word without any actual proof.

On another note, the data, if true, is almost a year old and just because there was no lead found then doesn't mean there is no lead in any of these components now.

I just believe what's good for the goose should be good for the gander, and we should either question everything equally or accept everything at face-value. Picking and choosing which alleged "facts" we will believe without question or accept without explanation makes our motives questionable, at best.

 

[warbdan]

Really? Scott, there isn't any need in instigating arguments here. We all just want to exchange ideas, bring about some positive change to our industry, and get this behind us.

 

[Scottitude]

I don't understand how pointing out inconsistencies in people's thought processes can be construed as instigating. By that logic, everyone on either side of any discussion is an instigator.

 

[SimpleSins]

Actually, Scott, that would be great if you wanted to start a thread based on the dangers of the equipment that all the vendors are selling without testing. This one happens to be about one vendor's stated goal of testing all the flavorings in use in the vaping world as we know it, but it would be great to have someone addressing your concerns, too. My familiarity is more with the chemicals involved with the juice, but I would wager there are a lot of people familiar with the hardware end of it that could commisserate and work with you to find safer alternatives to the lead you believe is in them. It's not quite as clear-cut as the diacetyl we know is in some juice (are there any documented instances of lead being found in the equipment?), but the potential is there and it would be quite good if you worked on making it safer from that end.

 

[warbdan]

.... yet nobody got outraged and demanded full disclosure, just a lot of back-slapping and praise for alleged testing for which there was no actual proof.

Not saying the OP didn't test he components mentioned or that he doesn't deserve praise for doing so at his own expense, just that everyone has apparently given him the benefit of the doubt and taken his word without any actual proof.



I just believe what's good for the goose should be good for the gander, and we should either question everything equally or accept everything at face-value. Picking and choosing which alleged "facts" we will believe without question or accept without explanation makes our motives questionable, at best.

Sounds like pointing your finger at people you've been having a discussion with. Just sayin....

 

[Ma'am]

Actually, Scott, that would be great if you wanted to start a thread based on the dangers of the equipment that all the vendors are selling without testing. This one happens to be about one vendor's stated goal of testing all the flavorings in use in the vaping world as we know it, but it would be great to have someone addressing your concerns, too. My familiarity is more with the chemicals involved with the juice, but I would wager there are a lot of people familiar with the hardware end of it that could commisserate and work with you to find safer alternatives to the lead you believe is in them. It's not quite as clear-cut as the diacetyl we know is in some juice (are there any documented instances of lead being found in the equipment?), but the potential is there and it would be quite good if you worked on making it safer from that end.

That is a good idea! I would really like to know more about what is heating up with my liquids. Could lead be in some of the more recent products? What is in the filler of cartos? China is the second largest producer of asbestos, could that find it's way into the carto filler?

Lead and asbestos are known health dangers, and not used in the US anymore but both are still used in China and that is where we get the "working" end of our ecigs.

 

[rogerdugans]

Here's what I don't understand:
A fairly new industry that as yet has little or no regulation in the United States and will eventually BE regulated, most likely by the FDA is filled with companies and customers that have very little idea of just what effect the products will have long term-
most companies and customers appear to want to wait until the US government tells them what to do and forces compliance.

One company is starting a program to figure some of this out in order to help influence the regulation process- other industries have successfully done the same thing in the past. It won't keep the US government OUT but can help influence what controls and standards are eventually put in place.

This is a new industry, folks and it is possible that they don't know exactly what tests and procedures will be most effective.
They may want to wait and see what works best before stating what their methodology is.

The simple fact that this is the only company that has made any attempt to do anything of this sort makes ME feel that they have earned some slack here, instead of getting slammed for doing it wrong.

They are the only ones doing ANYTHING, after all.

 

[warbdan]

I agree Roger, that's why I'm waiting to see what happens. The "air" of non-belief and skepticism you see here is coming from the fact that this very same vendor told a member here that it wasn't in their e-liquids when asked about. It later came out that they use FA flavors and FA does in fact contain diacetyl. They then said it wasn't anything to be concerned about and played it down, eventually closing the thread. Now, they are going to test all the flavorings from all the flavoring companies, which is good, but some remain confused by this sudden change in attitude. Nobody is trying to lynch FSUSA, they just feel like they're being fed a BS sandwich again. I can see where these members are coming from, but I also hope this testing turns out to be a very positive thing and not just a marketing ploy. They've already been cranking out order after order of 120ml bottles since they announced this. So, I guess if that's what it was, it's working.

 

[SimpleSins]

Roger, if you've read the thread, you would understand the concerns, especially as they exist in this particular case. Across the board, ANY vendor performing invalid, inadequate, or faux testing would do more to help the FDA in its goals, no matter the warm fuzzy it might give those who are more comfortable with the appearance that actuality. And so the integrity of the vendor does matter, which is part of what discussion is taking place, in addition to what testing would be sufficient to satisfy the things that safety conscious consumers, and the FDA, are going to want to know.

 

[kpax]

There is one company that has done testing on it's eliquids. Does lab analysis and everything is batch numbered for quality control. Excerpt from site:
Intellicigs® Research and Development team is resident in a state of the art Biotechnology Facility in the heart of Manchester’s bio-community; our laboratory is fully accredited and specifically designed for bioscience developments.

Thanks Zen for explaining what a COA is. I found that this was done for Ecopure (see link)

About us

I am bringing this up as it seems that this UK company is ahead of the game where testing is concerned and some of the US suppliers could learn from them.

I am a little concerned though as the Ecopure flavors are extremely lmited. No coffee, candy, fruits, etc... Mild, regular, Rich tobacco and menthol is all they offer. That is it. I have tried it and while quite good it is also very light on flavor.

It may just be a result of batch numbering everything. It would be a lot more complicated the more flavors offered. (That's another thing that is kind of concerning to me; most of the small suppliers hand mix everything leaving a lot of room for human mistakes) BUT maybe Intellicig knows something we don't as a result of their lab tests and that is why they offer so few flavors. They could be playing it safe or are purposefully avoiding most flavorings. I don't know.

 

[SimpleSins]

Kpax, I think there is a lot of truth as to the safety concerns limiting the juices EcoPure uses. In general, EU vendors take a more proactive approach to consumer safety. Their vendor organization is called ECITA and does have standards that need to be approved- they provide something of a Good Housekeeping seal of approval.

 

[smonomo]

Kpax, thanks for the info, I'm becoming more and more inclined to just grow some mint in the garden and be done with it all.

A little diacetyl and a few other chemicals here and there.....but all day every day?

 

[JonnyVapΣ]

Glad this thread has been reopened. The wrong thing to do in any general discussion based on a concern is to shut people up. There are whole countries that follow that kind of thinking and I'm pretty sure most of us here are against that.

I don't care how people respond or what their response is in this particular thread (for those that "know" me...ya...I know what you're thinking...LOL). In this case I'm reading and waiting to see how everything pans out.

I'm glad this discussion and others like it are taking place here. I want to see this entire industry beat up until it hurts. The key word here (and I have to explain myself here because far too many people skim posts without reading and comprehension) is "hurts". Only good can come out of severe scrutinizing. Those who survive are the ones who have been, are willing to and are striving towards doing things right...whoever that may be.

Af far as "threads like this turning potential e-cig customers away"...not going to happen. There are just under 50,000 ECF members here currently and maybe a few thousand guests stumble across the forum daily. There are an estimated 20,000 to 30,000 newcomers to electronic cigarettes WEEKLY (cited in a USA-Today article here; FDA warns electronic cigarette companies about health claims - USATODAY.com ). This industry won't be sunk on forum discussion. There is a particular arrogance among "E-Cigarette" users but I won't get into that beyond stating that it's not all about 'you'.

To further bring about a point of necessary discussion (not just this thread); could you imagine if nobody reported on Toyota's accelerator issue? If the victims or news agencies were forced to keep their mouths shut about it? Toyota would have recalled nothing, quietly made some changes to new product and gone about business as usual. Toyota won't make that mistake again. Good for us. All of us. Whether you own one or not.

Please, good, bad, ugly...everyone on both sides and the middle...keep up the great work!

 

[shanagan]

This is kind of long and covers a few subjects, I apologize in advance.

I can only speak for myself, but my suspicion is that many people might be where I'm at - I don't quite support-support FSUSA because of the concerns raised above, among others. I believe they have actually had a huge negative impact in the diacetyl discussion. We've seen members given false information, members concerns completely blown off, and threads shut down both in the vendor's forum - I guess it's his playground, and not part of ECF, so that's his prerogative - and here, after the personal attacks started. (And though I've seen some very vocal members state over and again that "we" have been doing the attacking, I haven't seen that at all, nor do I believe I've been part of it, though I've certainly been on the receiving end. Unlike many, I have never reported those attacks - I believe that as adults, there's room for discussion and even heated debate. I have, though, "ignored" a couple of members after their attacks tempted me to reply back in kind. It works quite well.)

Do I believe they care about the potential risk of vaping diacetyl or acetyl propionyl? No, I really don't. (As someone said, when a person shows you who they are, believe them - and it's been shown where FSUSA stands.) Their recent announcement reinforces my opinion that they will keep using diacetyl and ignore the already available data on the safety of inhaling diacetyl or acetyl propionyl. I also believe they will do what they've done so far - make a mockery of those of us who do believe that data raises serious concerns.

BUT, I support them in theory. Because I support vendor self-regulation.

Do I believe they will be the ones to change this industry for the better in the US? No, I don't. (Just my opinion. To me, they're furthering what does bother me about "the industry" right now, the wild-west mentality where anyone can be anything they want to be - they just have to say it to make it so.)

I do believe that our voices were heard. And by heard, I mean felt in the pocketbook. So that's encouraging, and should serve as a head's-up to other vendors. This isn't a game, and those vendors who are willing to treat their cash cow like an industry, rather than just a hit & run bit of good luck, can make real, effective headway towards creating a true reduced-harm alternative to tobacco.

 

[AngusATAT]

The thread was reopened under the condition that the conversation was kept civil. Since that isn't the case, it is being closed again.