Kayfun LITE - Part 2

[KTMRider]

Living in the woods myself, I can relate. I haven't been through the Toronto vicinity in 20 years. Went straight north from Toronto on a fishing trip once. Perhaps five hours north of Toronto along the Quebec border. Nice drive. And it was 100+ degrees on the drive back. The Canadians thought the world was coming to an end.

I rode my motorcycle up to Labrador City (15hrs north of Quebec City) back in '09 when most of the roads weren't paved. Fun trip.

Just outside Quebec City, the speed limit signs just have numbers. 90. So we went 85mph. Apparently, those silly canucks use kph

This was the main highway most of the way up to Lab City.

City limits (almost).

 

[ricks]

Might as well talk to the wall. He can get one for $20.00 to $40.00. That sounds like the $40.00 clone is way over priced. Wait to he sees his 1000 pieces and wonders why something is missing. Time he gets the machine oil off the K5 will be out.

What's your problem Ping? You think your better than some here?

 

[Bronze]

 

[crss]

Well... I do not comment on the oem/clone debate. I do understand the $$ point for both. As long as your not smoking a cig, good for you. This is not a thread that attacks members for there own choices. vape on & happy 2015.

 

[Dusty_D]

Hey.. I should have been saying that.

Ok, I'll say this instead.

 

[HBcorpse]

Now now...nobody was attacking anyone...yet! [emoji14]
We were just debating and discussing the pros and cons of the...well, Pros and Cons! Love how that works!

 

[VapingTurtle]

Head. Wall. Bang.

I remember back when this thread had mucho content, not contentious head banging. You should have just slept in that airport, corpse.

 

[ricks]

Now now...nobody was attacking anyone...yet! [emoji14]
We were just debating and discussing the pros and cons of the...well, Pros and Cons! Love how that works!

It kind of looked like you all were attacking me... You know who you all are.

 

[HBcorpse]

I remember back when this thread had mucho content, not contentious head banging. You should have just slept in that airport, corpse.

Well? Contribute something! Please! Nobody is stopping you. The floor is wide open! You haven't, thus far, done anything but make a couple of contentious remarks yourself.

It kind of looked like you all were attacking me... You know who you all are.

Ok look, nothing personal was said about anyone, including YOU ricks. The only thing that was "attacked" was the idea of clones, and the age old authentic/clone subject.
If you feel like you were "attacked", that is nobody's fault but your own. You chose to interpret simple words on a screen as an attack.
I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and never assume that someone is on the attack. We are all individuals who have opinions, skill sets, experiences, and knowledge. I am most certainly not taking anyone's side, as I consistently make points from both view points.
The long post I made a few dozen posts back, regarding clones and authentic devices CLEARLY STATED that I was not intending to start an argument...and it contained points from both sides of the coin.
We all need to remember that a LOT of what we say here, gets lost in translation, because this is a text based conversation. You can't hope to guess someone's tone just from the words they typed on a screen...no matter what you think.
Some make comments that appear intentionally inflammatory, and some always appear to play the victim. Such is the life of an online forum.
All said with a smile on my face, and love in my heart for all my fellow vapers. No cheesiness intended!

 

[Dusty_D]

Excellent!! Glad that the air has been cleared. Moving right along!!

What's the latest Kayfun killer out there? Subtank 22mm? Lemo drop?

 

[MattB101]

You seem to be very knowledgeable of the atomizer market.

I don't know if he is knowledgeable about the atty market but, he does sound knowledgeable about business. There are two ways to get maximum return on investment, front load pricing for maximum return early and return of investment over time. The problem with the over time model in the atty business is you have at most a month or two to make your money before either the cloners get close on quality and start really taking a bite out of sales or, until the next new thing comes out and folks move on. I can understand the high prices of new atty and mods but, I don't have to like it.

Sent with no malice and not a whole lot of forethought from my new Galaxy Tab 4. Thanks Santa!

 

[Bronze]

I don't know if he is knowledgeable about the atty market but, he does sound knowledgeable about business. There are two ways to get maximum return on investment, front load pricing for maximum return early and return of investment over time. The problem with the over time model in the atty business is you have at most a month or two to make your money before either the cloners get close on quality and start really taking a bite out of sales or, until the next new thing comes out and folks move on. I can understand the high prices of new atty and mods but, I don't have to like it.

Sent with no malice and not a whole lot of forethought from my new Galaxy Tab 4. Thanks Santa!

With the K4 I believe they had clones showing up two weeks later.

I started a business too. A metal fabrication joint. Wrote the biz plan, got partners, a line of credit, bought the building and equipment, hired the employees, bought insurance, blah, blah, blah. Started it up and got out of it. There is a lot of investment and a lot of risk for entrepreneurs and it seems these days they are made out to be villains.

 

[UncleChuck]

How do you know that? Do you know what they invested? Do you know how much they sell? Do you know what an appropriate level of "reward" is for them? Just askin'.

That cuts both ways as well, unless they are releasing figures on how much investment they have in a certain product both sides of the argument are just guessing as to how much profit they are making. Neither side can accurately say if the product is "fairly" priced or not.

Personally I have a lot of respect for Svoemesto, and have purchased several authentic KFL+ at full price to support them as a company. Their products are very original, it's painfully obvious that a lot of time, effort, and engineering have gone into them. I also have tons of Kayfun clones because I can't afford a $5000 atty collection, but I've supported the company as much as I'm able to.

But not all companies are like SM, and I don't think it's fair to give companies credit for massive investment when the end product really doesn't show it. The Aethertech Orchid is a perfect example, they slapped a modified fogger deck in a kayfun body and called it good. Early ones lacked a fill hole. Up until recently they used 1-piece chimneys that disallow any fine tuning of wick placement. That's not good engineering, and that doesn't demonstrate any significant time and effort placed into product testing and revising. People were willing to pay $180 for something so rough around the edges (figuratively, not literally) when they would attack clones (or low-end original products) for having issues even less significant. Compare the KF4 to the Orchid and tell me the Orchid isn't a basic piece of equipment, selling at the same price as the highly engineered KF4.

Another example is the onslaught of cookie-cutter 3-post RDAs being pumped out not too long ago and selling for near $100. If it takes a company any significant amount of effort/money/time to produce a simple 3-post RDA then they are doing something wrong. KFLs sell around the same price and are made with the same level of quality and far more engineering.

I don't think we should be avoiding this discussion, but we should be avoiding the snark and vitriol. You have the extremist anti-clone people who make it seem like building an atty is tantamount to building a Saturn-V rocket, and you have clone supporters who seem to think it takes twenty minutes to design and produce a working atty. Both are extreme, and incorrect, and we are allowing those types to steer the discussion into unproductive territory.

 

[Bronze]

That cuts both ways as well, unless they are releasing figures on how much investment they have in a certain product both sides of the argument are just guessing as to how much profit they are making. Neither side can accurately say if the product is "fairly" priced or not.

Personally I have a lot of respect for Svoemesto, and have purchased several authentic KFL+ at full price to support them as a company. Their products are very original, it's painfully obvious that a lot of time, effort, and engineering have gone into them. I also have tons of Kayfun clones because I can't afford a $5000 atty collection, but I've supported the company as much as I'm able to.

But not all companies are like SM, and I don't think it's fair to give companies credit for massive investment when the end product really doesn't show it. The Aethertech Orchid is a perfect example, they slapped a modified fogger deck in a kayfun body and called it good. Early ones lacked a fill hole. Up until recently they used 1-piece chimneys that disallow any fine tuning of wick placement. That's not good engineering, and that doesn't demonstrate any significant time and effort placed into product testing and revising. People were willing to pay $180 for something so rough around the edges (figuratively, not literally) when they would attack clones (or low-end original products) for having issues even less significant. Compare the KF4 to the Orchid and tell me the Orchid isn't a basic piece of equipment, selling at the same price as the highly engineered KF4.

Another example is the onslaught of cookie-cutter 3-post RDAs being pumped out not too long ago and selling for near $100. If it takes a company any significant amount of effort/money/time to produce a simple 3-post RDA then they are doing something wrong. KFLs sell around the same price and are made with the same level of quality and far more engineering.

I don't think we should be avoiding this discussion, but we should be avoiding the snark and vitriol. You have the extremist anti-clone people who make it seem like building an atty is tantamount to building a Saturn-V rocket, and you have clone supporters who seem to think it takes twenty minutes to design and produce a working atty. Both are extreme, and incorrect, and we are allowing those types to steer the discussion into unproductive territory.

One thing that can be said about SM and the Kayfun in particular (and is inarguable) is they shook up the vape world like so few have. And it doesn't take any effort to see it. Just look around at all the attys out there that copied their design in whole, in part, or in concept. Nearly every RTA released today has at least some elements of the Kayfun designed into it. We are seeing clearomizers with Kayfun elements. Those top coil thingies are dinosaurs now. Cartos are dinosaurs. Even drippers stole from the Kayfun design with the direct-to-coil airflow designs. Someone would be hard pressed to find anything that revolutionized vaping more than Kayfuns. That alone warrants a very lucrative paycheck for those responsible.

 

[qorax]

Excellent!! Glad that the air has been cleared. Moving right along!!

What's the latest Kayfun killer out there? Subtank 22mm? Lemo drop?

None can be a Kayfun killer b'coz all others are just an extension / diversification of it. Like i said many moons ago ~ "Kayfun is no more an atty - it is a type of an atty now"!

 

[qorax]

One thing that can be said about SM and the Kayfun in particular (and is inarguable) is they shook up the vape world like so few have. And it doesn't take any effort to see it. Just look around at all the attys out there that copied their design in whole, in part, or in concept. Nearly every RTA released today has at least some elements of the Kayfun designed into it. We are seeing clearomizers with Kayfun elements. Those top coil thingies are dinosaurs now. Cartos are dinosaurs. Even drippers stole from the Kayfun design with the direct-to-coil airflow designs. Someone would be hard pressed to find anything that revolutionized vaping more than Kayfuns. That alone warrants a very lucrative paycheck for those responsible.

O' one hundred % true. Gennys were the first big change during the Carto / Clearo scene. And K'fun was the next. Viralling an era of S-RTAs, which became just RTAs since the evolution of cotton as the wick of choice. Except for the Carto-RBAs (viz. Killer705, Diver v2 and Sophia) nothing else 'game-changing' has been introduced thereafter, has it?

 

[Dusty_D]

I remember reading a post by Imeo of GG fame a number of years ago, that a certain atty that he designed took approximately 4.5hrs of machine time from start to finish. I don't think it had 1/2 as many parts as what we are seeing from Svoemesto. Just sharing..

 

[Bronze]

I remember reading a post by Imeo of GG fame a number of years ago, that a certain atty that he designed took approximately 4.5hrs of machine time from start to finish. I don't think it had 1/2 as many parts as what we are seeing from Svoemesto. Just sharing..

And a machine shop will charge $50 - $100 per hour.

That said, there is not that much machining time in a Kayfun provided they thought the process through (e.g., using tube stock instead of solid bar stock where applicable, minimizing machine time by using common bar sizes close to finished dimensions, etc..).

 

[Bronze]

......nothing else 'game-changing' has been introduced thereafter, has it?

Not even the K4.

 

[Dusty_D]

And a machine shop will charge $50 - $100 per hour.

That said, there is not that much machining time in a Kayfun provided they thought the process through (e.g., using tube stock instead of solid bar stock where applicable, minimizing machine time by using common bar sizes close to finished dimensions, etc..).

Well, it was Greece so, I'm sure it was cheaper..