Let's Talk Nic Salts!

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bombastinator

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I'm no expert. What are you talking about, specifically? Is there an article you can share with us? Are there varieties of nic salt liquids you would recommend?

Speaking of the topic of this thread, I'm enjoying Solace Banana Dragonberry (45 mg) in my nautilus AIO and Pacha Mama Sorbet (50 mg) in my Renova Zero this evening. Both are fruity, creamy, and delicious and I fully expect them to kill my coils.
The whole problem revolves around how little data there actually is.

Basically JUUL invented nic salt a few years ago. Nicotine is alkali. It’s a base. If you mix almost any acid and almost any base there is a reaction and you get a salt. There are thousands of different salts only one of them (NaCl) is table salt. Table salt is is sodium and chlorine. A very strong acid and a very strong base come together (the sodium protonated the chlorine) to make a very stable compound. Weaker acids and bases make much less stable compounds. Nicotine is a very weak base.
This is a very similar process to how some designer drugs are made. Alter the chemical composition and it’s a different chemical with different properties. The issue is designer drugs often have slightly or vastly different behaviors from their original chemicals. Examples are numerous.
JUUL was forced to admit in court that their particular “nic salt” was actually nicotine benzoate. Nicotine reacted with benzoic acid. There are numerous other acids also being used to make “nic salt” though and to my knowledge none, including nicotine benzoate, have had any sort of safety testing.
This doesn’t mean they’re necessisarly dangerous. It just means we don’t know. There is some minimal evidence that indicates (not proves just indicates) that many of the protonated nicotines may (not are just May) be much more addictive than unprotonated nicotine. This was in the form of a chart of blood levels over time for the various chemicals. The protonated nicotines all got into the blood much faster and metabolized much faster as well.
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Rossum

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You used this argument once before. It didn’t work then either.
Just because you personally don't accept it doesn't make it invalid. ;)

By that logic The willow tree invented aspirin. Except it didn’t really. The amount of salycilic acid in willow bark is small and combined with other compounds. Some aspirin like effects can be gotten from chewing huge amounts of willow bark, but they don’t compare to that of a single aspirin. It’s a whole different level of effect.
Yes, the willow tree did invent it. Medicines made from willow were used by Hippocrates himself, several centuries BCE, and willow bark extract has been widely used for several hundred years.

The fact that a single aspirin tablet is more effective than chewing "huge amounts of willow bark" doesn't really translate to our situation, since it's trivial to get very effective doses of nicotine (almost exclusively in the form of various salts) by smoking, chewing, or otherwise consuming tobacco.
 

Rossum

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JUUL was forced to admit in court that their particular “nic salt” was actually nicotine benzoate. Nicotine reacted with benzoic acid.
I rather doubt that they were "forced to admit" this in court, since it was right there in black and white in their patent (which was published before Juul was even on the market) as well as in the FAQ on their website, in the summer of 2015, shortly after they entered the market, and well before hating on them became a thing.
 

bombastinator

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Just because you personally don't accept it doesn't make it invalid. ;)
that’s a stick that points both ways
Yes, the willow tree did invent it. Medicines made from willow were used by Hippocrates himself, several centuries BCE, and willow bark extract has been widely used for several hundred years.
you’re making my point for me here. Greater concentration greater effect. Besides, the first one that worked really well was aspirin. Aspirin didn’t just work better than willow bark extract it worked a LOT better.
The fact that a single aspirin tablet is more effective than chewing "huge amounts of willow bark" doesn't really translate to our situation, since it's trivial to get very effective doses of nicotine (almost exclusively in the form of various salts) by smoking, chewing, or otherwise consuming tobacco.
But they’re not pure, and they’re not single compounds, Same as with willow bark.

Aspirin actually has problems. It thins blood (sometimes quite useful) and it tends to chew up your stomach. They came out with a version of aspirin called bufferin which had less issues because it was buffered with a different compound.
 
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gpjoe

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The kind of discussion you’d prefer not to have is often one that needs to be had when dealing with protonated nic though. The issue is “salt” is a marketing misnomer. There are many kinds of protonated nic, and unlike with unprotonated nic, no one apparently knows what any of them do long term because the company that invented them is either not releasing or, more disturbingly, deliberately avoided doing any research on the subject.

wikipedia said:
A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful actors...

I don't know...looking at your quote with the pertinent info highlighted by me, and the first sentence from the wiki page you linked to, it certainly feels like your statement precisely fits the definition by implying a "sinister" motive for a cover-up of reality. I would also like to point out that you admittedly have no factual basis for your conclusion.
 

gpjoe

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Besides, there are many pro-vape doctors and scientists that have made vaping truth the core of their practice. I would think (though I could be wrong) if there was a serious threat to vapers due to nic salts they would be working diligently to investigate and inform.
 

bombastinator

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I don't know...looking at your quote with the pertinent info highlighted by me, and the first sentence from the wiki page you linked to, it certainly feels like your statement precisely fits the definition by implying a "sinister" motive for a cover-up of reality. I would also like to point out that you admittedly have no factual basis for your conclusion.
The underlining implies that not doing any safety research at all is a reasonable and innocent behavior. It’s not. The people who made it are chemists. They know how this stuff works.
 
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MetalSteve

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Too bad this didn't stay on topic.

I've had great experience with Nasty Salt Cush Man from Nasty Juice. I use 3.5% with an Exceed Edge, or a Infinix - for now, looking at a MTL RTA real soon, or maybe the Smoant Pasito, we'll see.

Yeah...

Have you tried the other Nasty Juice flavors too?
 
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I have, the Grape one, forget the name, and the blue one - I think its a raspberry. All three I've tried are delicious, not too overwhelming and seem to work well with coils. A lot of the other liquids I've tried will really wreck a coil in a matter of days. Too much sweetener maybe, I don't pretend to know.
 
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gpjoe

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OK, sorry, back on topic.

Personally, I use mainly Mr Salt, and always have some of their Vanilla Custard and Strawberry Custard on hand. I DIY a lot of my juice and have another custard recipe that I like a lot. I also vaped through a bottle of their Gramz flavor (graham cracker) and it was good, but I've had enough for now.

Another that I recently tried is Chubby Bubble Purp (grape) and love it.

I will say this: I have tried many and had more misses than hits, but I'm using the highest nic level I can find for my pod mods - usually 40mg and higher, so the nic content may be tainting the flavor a bit.

I didn't like the Vaptasia Lemon Killer Kustard - it was a bit too tart/sharp for my taste, though I do like their strawberry version.
 
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MetalSteve

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A lot of the other liquids I've tried will really wreck a coil in a matter of days. Too much sweetener maybe, I don't pretend to know.

I've decided that if "coil killer" liquids are working for me, it's worth the cost of a pod or coil each week. But I'd also like to try some liquids with less sweetener.
 
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I've decided that if "coil killer" liquids are working for me, it's worth the cost of a pod or coil each week. But I'd also like to try some liquids with less sweetener.

For sure, I've found a couple that will wreck a coil in 2-3 days, that hurts the wallet a bit much for me. But if I can get them to last a week I'm pretty happy.

Looking into the Ammit or Berserker to start trying my hand at RTA's, looking forward to it. Any recommendations personally?
 
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MetalSteve

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Looking into the Ammit or Berserker to start trying my hand at RTA's, looking forward to it. Any recommendations personally?

I haven't tried them myself. The best I have right now is the Nautilus 2. @stols001 and @P3ch3's recommendations on the previous page definitely have me thinking about the Ammit for when I want to try building and the vape budget allows.
 
I haven't tried them myself. The best I have right now is the Nautilus 2. @stols001 and @P3ch3's recommendations on the previous page definitely have me thinking about the Ammit for when I want to try building and the vape budget allows.

The EHPRO Tru looks real good too. I might give that a shot.
 
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