nicotine salts have been used for years in pharmaceutical products including nicotine gum, sprays etc. Surely they have been deemed 'safe' for their purpose by the appropriate regulating body. Just Google nicotine ditartrate and you will get a few hits. Nobody wants to research anymore. Why not find out the facts.
Some may not be safe for vaping, but is everything we vape now safe? Is everyone using TC and unflavored juices?
Nicotine salts have been used for years in pharmaceutical products including nicotine gum, sprays etc. Surely they have been deemed 'safe' for their purpose by the appropriate regulating body. Just Google nicotine ditartrate and you will get a few hits. Nobody wants to research anymore. Why not find out the facts.
Some may not be safe for vaping, but is everything we vape now safe? Is everyone using TC and unflavored juices?
Just did as you suggested, and I’m getting nothing except a bunch of warnings. “Emits NOx when heated” was one of them.
There seems to be one pilot study where it was used as an enema for ulcerative colitis and didn’t work well. There is another study where it was use on rats. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d246/479d3d1dfe7209a5b03f545579a9510d6845.pdf
It’s a bit beyond me, but as far as I can tell, the primary interest was determining effects on the urinary tract. The results were not super.
I am finding no evidence of your claims of use in the products you describe. All of the things you describe use unprotonated nic.
IF this is true it would drastically change my opinion on the subject but so far as I can tell from here it just isn’t.
Yeah... insulting my education doesn’t actually change anything. “Must have” is not “has”. I’m actually seeing a distinct and definite lack of “has”
You’re making a tremendous number of assumptions.
I notice you’re not actually doing anything yourself here. Find a “has” and I’ll take your point. I’m not finding one.
Googling “Ncotine bitartrate dihydrate” I also get the Wikipedia for nicorette. Not sure if google is just separating out the word nicotine though.
The issue I keep running into is they keep switching immediately to describing “nicotine” rather than the chemical described. The history also goes immediately into patches which are based on skin absorption and by definition cannot use a salt. Something is off here.
Look at what's in in nicotine gum: Nicotine Polacrilex
That's nicotine bound to an ion-exchange resin such as polymethacrilic acid.
What's another term for a base (like nicotine) bound to an acid?
Right, that's commonly referred to as a "Salt".
Yet somehow, this is approved for over-the-counter sale and use by people as young as 12 in most of the civilized world.
Look at what's in in nicotine gum: Nicotine Polacrilex
That's nicotine bound to an ion-exchange resin such as polymethacrilic acid.
What's another term for a base (like nicotine) bound to an acid?
Right, that's commonly referred to as a "Salt".
Yet somehow, this is approved for over-the-counter sale and use by people as young as 12 in most of the civilized world.
As it happened I just looked that one up as it was part of the earlier point. There’s a fairly large body of data on it as it was developed in the early seventies. Anything before Regan seems to have more data available. Nicorette - Wikipedia
Not sure it works that way.
Is your logic “nicorette could be considered a “salt” and these other things are also salts so they must all be the same?
This logic using other forms:
“A Bugatti veyron can accelerate faster than a jet. A Bugatti veyron is a car. A Toyota Prius is a car. Therefore a Toyota Prius is faster than a jet”
Grinding up a piece of nicorette and trying to vape it strikes me as a bad idea personally.
Nicotine tartrate and tartrate dihydride both seem to have big heat issues which is why they are sprays rather than juices.
Never argue with a forum warrior. He's devoid of humor and disguises his layman's understanding in voluminous walls of text. And he always gets the final word.
So some of these 'salts' have pharmaceutical applications and we can perhaps assume they have been tested. My understanding though is they are all different made for different purposes. I do know some have been developed specifically for vaping. Have they been tested?
So some of these 'salts' have pharmaceutical applications and we can perhaps assume they have been tested. My understanding though is they are all different made for different purposes. I do know some have been developed specifically for vaping. Have they been tested?
The ingredients are nicotine and one of a variety of organic acids that are generally recognized as safe. No long term studies have been completed since it's a new technology, hence the pages of debate. No short term studies have shown any danger.
Never argue with a forum warrior. He's devoid of humor and disguises his layman's understanding in voluminous walls of text. And he always gets the final word.
The ingredients are nicotine and one of a variety of organic acids that are generally recognized as safe. No long term studies have been completed since it's a new technology, hence the pages of debate. No short term studies have shown any danger.
And if they were separate compounds you would have a point. The problem is they’re not. This has been gone over before. Also the subject of the discussion is tartrate. Also GRAS, also sold as a way to make nic salts, also apparently has some issues when combined with nicotine.
Alternative interpretation: You have cried wolf so loudly and so often that you have lost your credibility.
Certainly, when chemicals react they exhibit different properties than they do alone. For example, poisonous chlorine and explosive sodium combine bond to form innocuous table salt. So who's to say what nicotine benzoate or any other nic salt is like? We can make an informed supposition that since benzoic acid is GRAS and used as a food preservative, it can bond to a wide variety of substances without forming anything harmful. But then it can be pointed out that what's good for the stomach is not necessarily good for the lungs—case in point, diacetyl. But then there was the same debate about propylene glycol and glycerol and that turned out to be nothing. In the absence of a long term study all we can do is flap our gums.
You: "It hasn't been ruled safe, therefore it could still be bad, and therefore it's my duty to derail every thread by speaking about it ad nauseam, even if it drives away those who could benefit."
Me: "You're a FUD spreader. The entirety of vaping was founded on experimenting with things that were not ruled to be safe. There's no reason to expect nic salts would be bad, and in practice they seem to work just fine, and they certainly help people quit smoking, so give 'em a pass and be vigilant."
Alternative interpretation: You have cried wolf so loudly and so often that you have lost your credibility.
Certainly, when chemicals react they exhibit different properties than they do alone. For example, poisonous chlorine and explosive sodium combine bond to form innocuous table salt. So who's to say what nicotine benzoate or any other nic salt is like? We can make an informed supposition that since benzoic acid is GRAS and used as a food preservative, it can bond to a wide variety of substances without forming anything harmful. But then it can be pointed out that what's good for the stomach is not necessarily good for the lungs—case in point, diacetyl. But then there was the same debate about propylene glycol and glycerol and that turned out to be nothing. In the absence of a long term study all we can do is flap our gums.
You: "It hasn't been ruled safe, therefore it could still be bad, and therefore it's my duty to derail every thread by speaking about it ad nauseam, even if it drives away those who could benefit."
as you suggest salts ad nauseum to people who have no reasonable special need for them? Why is that BTW? Also what’s with the attempts to divine psychological characteristics and make claims about them in posts? You don’t seem to be doing it right now.
Me: "You're a FUD spreader. The entirety of vaping was founded on experimenting with things that were not ruled to be safe.
Not for me it wasn’t. I looked into it real good. It was my least dangerous option.
Ah. Reviving the FUD accusation again. How dare I point out a disturbing lack of data? In the face of claims that there IS data and everything “must” be OK? I don’t claim that I know salts to be dangerous, though the apparent issue n-tartrate seems to have with being heated is interesting. Only learned about that one in this thread. Still not totally sure about that one as it doesn’t list what temperature it has to be heated to or how much NOx is produced when it is.
That’s not FUD though, that’s data. Or a lack of it, depending.
We know it seems a lot more about unprotonated nicotine than the various protonated nicotines. It appears there WAS research on one protonated nicotine: n-tartrate. It appears to be completely fine when not heated. There’s a really good chance it’s STILL safer than cigarettes even if heated. We do know unprotonated nicotine can be heated safely to iirc ~450f or so without issues, and has a much milder blood level profile than any of the protonated nics tested by JUUL. We know a lot about unprotonated nic. We have for a long time. Would ecigs even have been allowed at all if they used random unlabeled protonated nics? I very very much doubt it.
That’s not FUD. That’s reality.
There's no reason to expect nic salts would be bad,
As always on this topic, the disclaimer that you don't know any more than anybody else. The imposing wall of text is mortared with ignorance, so to speak. Why do you require so many words to say nothing at all? Is this self-gratification for you? I repeat: you delude yourself that you are helping when you are harming.
If you are referring to chemical dangers listed in such places as ICSC, note that warning applies to plain old nicotine --- nicotine sulfate and nicotine tartrate also have that chemical warning (since they have nicotine as a chemical component):
Now you can go and spread fear about heating ordinary nicotine -- in fact, nicotine-bitartrate must be safer because I gram of nicotine-bitartrate only has around 0.325 grams of that dangerous nicotine chemical that gives off the NOx and CO.
no I don’t. At least that anyone is saying. That’s the problem with post 1980’s science. No one says anymore. Secrets and lies in abundance, but little information.
The imposing wall of text is mortared with ignorance, so to speak.
Helping or hurting whom? I get that you clearly don’t like it. You’re not everyone though. Is it hurting the adoption of protonated nicotine over unprotonated nicotine? Possibly. I fail to see how that’s bad though.
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