Liquid is insanely expensive.

[Jonathan Tittle]

Pretty much sums it up .

If I don't like the price I don't plunk down my money. If I like the product enough then I pays my money, & everybody is happy. Seems simple enough to me.......

When it comes to juice, for me and if I buy from a vendor, I want to see and feel the passion. If I can't, I walk. I've not had the chance to vape Five Pawns, but if I can get a good feel for their passion for the business, and for making quality juice and it vapes well, then the cost is really secondary.

I only vape 1-3ml per day (less as I've been sick this week), so a 30ml bottle is going to last me 10-30 days. If I can't spend $30 for that extended period of time, I don't need to be vaping as I spent $5-$6 a pack on Camel Lights when I smoked, which was $35-$42 a week. I could buy 4x bottles a month and still keep my health and enjoy fine juice in the process.

Perhaps others feel differently, but you, as an individual, know how much you can spend. If you can spend it, do it, if you can't, don't. But griping about pricing doesn't help you or anyone else. It's definitely not going to make them, or anyone else change their pricing as they are still in business and from where I stand, it looks like their business is good .

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Hey now! I'm not steamed up, but you were supposed to keep those few things a secret....now that everyone knows how easy it is to print labels, we're going to have so much competition!!!

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Hopefully no-one takes that seriously . Avery labels suck. I have some falling off my DIY bottles right now. They'll stick to wood, but those frosted plastic bottles are out of the question....Now I'm off to Office Depot to grab some more crappy labels.

OMG - in all these pages of posts, the outraged consumers and steamed-up small business owners haven't figured out the obvious???

Buy a computer, and a laserprinter gets thrown in for free, laserprinters are dirt cheap. If something breaks in them, it's cheaper to throw it away and get a new one, that pay to fix it. BUT go buy a couple of ink cartridges for it, you need a second mortgage...

A B&M sells the ego / evod / mod whatever cheap enough to get it out the door, a loss leader, maybe even throw in a bottle of juice. The customers keep coming back for the juice.$$$$ ding, ding, ding...

 

[carrielsal]

I try to spend my money locally when possible. We have a B&M the next town over that I have been going to for about a year. Their prices are fairly reasonable, but most important.....if I have a problem the store is only a 15 minute drive. That's huge! When I first started vaping it seemed I was stopping by every couple days for help.
Prices on e-liquid are pretty good. $15 for a 30 ml bottle, buy three different flavors or strengths and get a 4th bottle free, 10% military/teacher/police discount storewide, and credit towards a free bottle of e-liquid when you bring your old bottles back in.

 

[LeftHandBlack]

Here in Denver going rate is $4 for 10ml and $12 for 30 ml. Some shops are priced higher but I wont shop there.

 

[JulesXsmokr]

$1 /ml seems pretty reasonable to me. You can always make your own and try to convince yourself it is as good as commercial-made e-juice.

I make mine, not as good "yet" as some great flavor makers, but I only spend about 30 cents for 5 ml. worth.

 

[Myk]

My liquid averages out to 4.8¢/ml including shipping (if I mixed up my full order that's what it would cost, and would probably taste really bad but would come out to 18mg).
Figuring it up per recipe would take too much math that I don't care about. Some would be cheaper some would be more. Most of mine are probably on the cheaper side because I have to go light on the PG flavorings.

I don't know where the fault lies and I don't blame the wholesalers for charging retail type prices. They have to so they don't undercut their wholesale customers (that is a concept I deal with in my business).
But there's a fault somewhere in the line when the goods that cost that little need to be marked up that much by the time they get to B&Ms.
If packaging is the issue (and I am willing to pay more for liquid that comes in glass) there should be a huge price drop as volume goes up.

And I do know a lot of the fault lies with the retail property developers charging way too much for rent any more. Even in my bad for business community they want way more than most businesses could support.

I agree that bottles shouldn't be factored in, but in most cases, they are since they are a cost to the business just as the chemicals and flavorings are, whether they create their own or buy pre-made.

As far as cost per ML, I'm sure larger companies can get it down if they're buying drums of flavoring or PG/VG, but for smaller start-up's, that's not always an option. It's not impossible, just not always an option.

I buy from the same 3 companies I mentioned in my post above, but I often buy from other flavor companies too. The cost for smaller sizes of flavoring costs more than it does by the gallon, so I'm not sure how you're dropping the costs to $0.08 or below without buying in bulk sizes, unless you just buy cheaper flavors (nothing wrong with that, btw).

Even at $1.49/8ml at Wizard labs, which is where most buy from to get started, that's $0.18/ml for just flavoring, which is already above 2x what you said your figure was.

You can include the cost of the bottles in the price just as I figured out that cost of electricity to run my kiln for a cycle and added that to my labor but it's not something you mark up like the item you are selling.
Gold is usually supplies to sell my labor for me. With gold sky rocketing like it has solder is something I watch to make sure I don't lose money on a repair but I don't count little chips of solder and double them, I raise the price of the repair if I see averages are starting to cost more.
I know a lot of wholesalers are using gold prices to gouge on markups and it's really making it hard on the retailers.

The majority of my flavorings were TFA. I don't know why mine is so much cheaper than yours. It was during a sale.
My order was figured up on using 20% flavoring but I'm actually limited to >10% so my liquids can actually be cheaper yet.

Don't forget labor. Labor accounts for the highest part of overhead for most businesses.

And labor is something you markup because whatever you are paying costs you more with taxes and insurance.

Naturally you wouldn't pay me $10/hr to suck up liquids in a syringe. You need automation and pay someone $10/hr to watch the machine. If you paid me to measure liquids with a syringe you'd end up having to charge $1/ml to the end customer

What? Bottles not factored in? The bottle is part of the product and should be factored in. It is obvious those complaining about the price have never run their own business. If they have they didn't make it... Someone mixing juice at home cannot be compared to someone operating a business. The product is the cheapest part, overhead is the killer. I guarantee the vendors who are operating a proper business are paying much more per mil when all overhead is factored in than any DIYer does.

If you want to sell bottles then be a bottle seller.
I pack most everything in little zipper bags. So instead of including that 3¢ as a cost you're saying I should tack an extra $1 on to the customer? Or when I use a $2 ring box I should charge the customer an extra $10?
Listening to you I would price myself out of business.

It's obvious to me that some people may run a business but they have no idea how to be competitive and are just out to price gouge and hope enough suckers pay to keep them afloat.
My last boss started to get that attitude when he started spending too much money to build the business. He almost ran himself into the ground trying to make his fewer and fewer customers pay more and more to pay for his bad management.

I'm a DIY kind of guy for a lot of things. It would really be a first if eliquid is something you can buy in small quantities at retail pricing and end up making the cheaper and more efficiently than a business when comparing apples to apples. The only way I can make beer is to ignore my labor as a labor of love.

If you operate a store / B&M, you factor in all associated costs.

How do you factor in rent and utilities into the costs you mark up?
You go with an industry standard. That standard will pay for your costs. When you find that it's coming out light you find places to cut costs or you increase some prices.
Where rent is higher volume is generally higher and that makes up for it while staying competitive.
If you step out of industry standards because you paid too much for rent you're probably on the way out of business.

I've never seen or heard of $1/ml online and I liked to check out the high end places because I have trust issues with liquid

Then just order your juice from online vendors and quit your .....in!

Good plan. Then we're just a little inclusion into a tobacco bill away from having eliquid effectively banned.
I don't need to order. I DIY and am set for longer than I expect my stuff to stay viable.

I kinda feel sorry for these small Brick anf Mortar stores that are finally popping up, because I see their inventory and I dont see how many of them are going to make it. I really dont.

When you consider they are selling an addiction with obviously very healthy markups (some places are 300% over what anyone can buy single pieces direct from China) I don't think it's too much to hope for.
If ecigs push cigarettes out of the picture they're set up to become very rich.

Wow, I bet this is too long. That's what you all get for going nuts posing a full long page while I was out getting batteries (which they gave me for free, BTW).

 

[fetalbounce]

I'd have to disagree here. I vape some of the inexpensive stuff (MBV is the go-to) and some various "fancy" juices... and I've NEVER EVER paid $1/ml

This stuff is even MORE than $1 per ml. I tried some out at the vape bar, and it's pretty ding-dang tasty I have to admit, but it's WAAAAY over-priced IMO. I would have to be in a *very* self-indulgent mood to buy it.

https://fivepawns.com/shop/

 

[albcig]

stated many times in this thread. make your own liquid! i do, i like it. not as good as some liquids i occasionally buy, but is a lot cheaper. i cook my own fish too. not as good as some restaurants cook it, but hey, you want better stuff? get smarter, make more money!

 

[fetalbounce]

Hahahahaa!! And at $8 per ml they are calling it "Smoke Smart"! That is too funny...

All the folks on ECF that complain about the high cost of liquid, I am willing to bet that many of them spend $100, $200, $300+++ on eating out each month. Could they make the same food, probably better, at home for a fraction of the price? Absolutely! But we still like to go out and splurge and try a different steak or burrito or salad than we make for ourselves. Try as hard as I might, I cannot make an exact copy of Micky D's fries at home. It's no different with liquid.

As for $1 per ml or more? It's whatever the market will support and what people are willing to pay. As long as folks are willing to pay those prices, the price will not drop.

And apparently, the market can support quite a high price right now. Here is a vendor that charges $79.99 for 10 ml when its not on sale. Yes, you read that right, $8.00 per ml! Customers and the market are obviously supporting that price or they would not be in business right now, or they would be drastically dropping their price far below their current sale price.

E-Liquid - Classic Flavors

 

[fetalbounce]

compaired to what I use to pay for cigarettes, its a savings all around no mater what vendor I use.

That's the core of the consumer perception problem that is sustaining these high prices. People are comparing e-liquid to cigarette prices when it makes more sense to compare the cost between the various e-liquid providers.

 

[stevegmu]

I make mine, not as good "yet" as some great flavor makers, but I only spend about 30 cents for 5 ml. worth.

That's great. I just don't have the time. I vape a lot of flavors. All of Halo's juices are in my rotation, except for 2, as well as about half of Alice In Vapeland's. For the flavor and enjoyment I get from my juice vendors, I consider their juices to be well priced.

 

[JulesXsmokr]

And *THAT* is why I will probably never start an ejuice business. lol. It seems like it's just way too easy for people to make their own.

It's physically easy, takes a little time, and cheap once you get all your gear together, it's a hobby within a hobby.
Not everyone will want to do this, so juice makers (venders) will always be needed, and with a growing community, more and biggers companies wanting to get in the door.

 

[Myk]

It's physically easy, takes a little time, and cheap once you get all your gear together, it's a hobby within a hobby.
Not everyone will want to do this, so juice makers (venders) will always be needed, and with a growing community, more and biggers companies wanting to get in the door.

I equate it to be about like RYO. Takes a lot less time, saves a lot more money.

 

[ambientech]

My liquid averages out to 4.8¢/ml including shipping (if I mixed up my full order that's what it would cost, and would probably taste really bad but would come out to 18mg).
Figuring it up per recipe would take too much math that I don't care about. Some would be cheaper some would be more. Most of mine are probably on the cheaper side because I have to go light on the PG flavorings.

I don't know where the fault lies and I don't blame the wholesalers for charging retail type prices. They have to so they don't undercut their wholesale customers (that is a concept I deal with in my business).
But there's a fault somewhere in the line when the goods that cost that little need to be marked up that much by the time they get to B&Ms.
If packaging is the issue (and I am willing to pay more for liquid that comes in glass) there should be a huge price drop as volume goes up.

And I do know a lot of the fault lies with the retail property developers charging way too much for rent any more. Even in my bad for business community they want way more than most businesses could support.




You can include the cost of the bottles in the price just as I figured out that cost of electricity to run my kiln for a cycle and added that to my labor but it's not something you mark up like the item you are selling.
Gold is usually supplies to sell my labor for me. With gold sky rocketing like it has solder is something I watch to make sure I don't lose money on a repair but I don't count little chips of solder and double them, I raise the price of the repair if I see averages are starting to cost more.
I know a lot of wholesalers are using gold prices to gouge on markups and it's really making it hard on the retailers.

The majority of my flavorings were TFA. I don't know why mine is so much cheaper than yours. It was during a sale.
My order was figured up on using 20% flavoring but I'm actually limited to >10% so my liquids can actually be cheaper yet.





And labor is something you markup because whatever you are paying costs you more with taxes and insurance.

Naturally you wouldn't pay me $10/hr to suck up liquids in a syringe. You need automation and pay someone $10/hr to watch the machine. If you paid me to measure liquids with a syringe you'd end up having to charge $1/ml to the end customer






If you want to sell bottles then be a bottle seller.
I pack most everything in little zipper bags. So instead of including that 3¢ as a cost you're saying I should tack an extra $1 on to the customer? Or when I use a $2 ring box I should charge the customer an extra $10?
Listening to you I would price myself out of business.

It's obvious to me that some people may run a business but they have no idea how to be competitive and are just out to price gouge and hope enough suckers pay to keep them afloat.
My last boss started to get that attitude when he started spending too much money to build the business. He almost ran himself into the ground trying to make his fewer and fewer customers pay more and more to pay for his bad management.

I'm a DIY kind of guy for a lot of things. It would really be a first if eliquid is something you can buy in small quantities at retail pricing and end up making the cheaper and more efficiently than a business when comparing apples to apples. The only way I can make beer is to ignore my labor as a labor of love.



How do you factor in rent and utilities into the costs you mark up?
You go with an industry standard. That standard will pay for your costs. When you find that it's coming out light you find places to cut costs or you increase some prices.
Where rent is higher volume is generally higher and that makes up for it while staying competitive.
If you step out of industry standards because you paid too much for rent you're probably on the way out of business.

I've never seen or heard of $1/ml online and I liked to check out the high end places because I have trust issues with liquid



Good plan. Then we're just a little inclusion into a tobacco bill away from having eliquid effectively banned.
I don't need to order. I DIY and am set for longer than I expect my stuff to stay viable.



When you consider they are selling an addiction with obviously very healthy markups (some places are 300% over what anyone can buy single pieces direct from China) I don't think it's too much to hope for.
If ecigs push cigarettes out of the picture they're set up to become very rich.

Wow, I bet this is too long. That's what you all get for going nuts posing a full long page while I was out getting batteries (which they gave me for free, BTW).

The bottle is part of the product as a resistor is part of a circuit board. You take the sum of all parts and mark them up. That isn't price gouging that is business 101 LOL. I don't worry about what my competitors are doing. My product stands on it's own. If it isn't worth what I charge I will fail. The quickest way to bankruptcy is the competition to see who can charge the least and see who makes it out on the other side. The HVAC business is highly competitive in my area. I chose not to play that game and I am still in business while over 90% of those who had startups about the same time as me, who played who can be the cheapest went bankrupt.

 

[fetalbounce]

What? Bottles not factored in? The bottle is part of the product and should be factored in. It is obvious those complaining about the price have never run their own business. If they have they didn't make it... Someone mixing juice at home cannot be compared to someone operating a business. The product is the cheapest part, overhead is the killer. I guarantee the vendors who are operating a proper business are paying much more per mil when all overhead is factored in than any DIYer does.

lolz. How much does a little glass bottle cost when purchased in bulk? And if the bottle is the big input cost, then why not compete on price by using 30 ml bottles instead of 15? I'm sure the price for the 30 ml bottles is roughly the same as the 15 ml ones.

Michael Porter ( Michael Porter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) would absolutely LOVE the e-liquid industry. He called the soft drink business a license to print money. With a total cost of producing a bottle of e-liquid at roughly a dollar or less, I think the same analogy holds true here.

 

[ambientech]

lolz. How much does a little glass bottle cost when purchased in bulk? And if the bottle is the big input cost, then why not compete on price by using 30 ml bottles instead of 15? I'm sure the price for the 30 ml bottles is roughly the same as the 15 ml ones.

Michael Porter ( Michael Porter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) would absolutely LOVE the e-liquid industry. He called the soft drink business a license to print money. With a total cost of producing a bottle of e-liquid at roughly a dollar or less, I think the same analogy holds true here.

Might read my posts a little closer. I never said the bottle was a big input, it is part of the product. Overhead is the biggest cost. Looking like ECF e-liquid has turned into a hangout for occupy wallstreet.

 

[fetalbounce]

Might read my posts a little closer. I never said the bottle was a big input, it is part of the product. Overhead is the biggest cost. Looking like ECF e-liquid has turned into a hangout for occupy wallstreet.

It is what it is. I just want to find the best deals I can, and I like examining the market. From what I've read it seems to me that this is an insanely profitable business.

 

[WillyZee]

It is what it is. I just want to find the best deals I can, and I like examining the market. From what I've read it seems to me that this is an insanely profitable business.

every business takes more to start and succeed than what appears on the surface ...

I am thinking of drilling for oil ... and starting my own Gas Company

 

[Myk]

The bottle is part of the product as a resistor is part of a circuit board. You take the sum of all parts and mark them up. That isn't price gouging that is business 101 LOL. I don't worry about what my competitors are doing. My product stands on it's own. If it isn't worth what I charge I will fail. The quickest way to bankruptcy is the competition to see who can charge the least and see who makes it out on the other side. The HVAC business is highly competitive in my area. I chose not to play that game and I am still in business while over 90% of those who had startups about the same time as me, who played who can be the cheapest went bankrupt.

No, the resistor in a circuit is what you are selling if you're selling circuit boards. The cost of the resistor is included in the markup on the board. You don't itemize every component, mark them up and then mark the board up again. Or I guess it sounds like you do.
That's bad business 101.

I'm sure you do stay in business passing everything on as an excuse to charge more. If I caught you doing that to me I may be stuck with it but you can bet you would lose the future business of everyone I know. And just like the scammers in your business who add on a few extra charges I'm sure you don't care because the extra makes up for the losses of getting caught because most of the customers are clueless and don't catch it.

Between my business and yours, mine is closer to mixing eliquids and running a retail store.

 

[fetalbounce]

every business takes more to start and succeed than what appears on the surface ...

I am thinking of drilling for oil ... and starting my own Gas Company

LOL! -