Liquid is insanely expensive.

[Criticalmass]

If you think liquids are expensive now, just wait until you're paying the tax of one or two packs of cigarettes for every milliliter. All the cigalike vendors making ridiculous claims about their 1 ml cartos equaling 1-1/2 to 2 packs of cigarettes may come back to bite us all.

Then I will start in on DIY. And I will rely on the gracious ECF members to help me with my recipes. They can't tax the ingredients into oblivion because they are used for so many other things. ALl they can do is tax the finished product, but it is to everyone's benefit that this doesn't happen so we need to be active along with the businesses in stopping it.

 

[Caridwen]

All the folks on ECF that complain about the high cost of liquid, I am willing to bet that many of them spend $100, $200, $300+++ on eating out each month. Could they make the same food, probably better, at home for a fraction of the price? Absolutely! But we still like to go out and splurge and try a different steak or burrito or salad than we make for ourselves. Try as hard as I might, I cannot make an exact copy of Micky D's fries at home. It's no different with liquid.

As for $1 per ml or more? It's whatever the market will support and what people are willing to pay. As long as folks are willing to pay those prices, the price will not drop.

And apparently, the market can support quite a high price right now. Here is a vendor that charges $79.99 for 10 ml when its not on sale. Yes, you read that right, $8.00 per ml! Customers and the market are obviously supporting that price or they would not be in business right now, or they would be drastically dropping their price far below their current sale price.

E-Liquid - Classic Flavors

$249 for an ego kit! LOL

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Let me know which vendor is able to do a run for $0.01/ML complete. I'd love to speak with them .

Let's do a quick price breakdown for DIY. We have PG, VG, Nicotine, Flavoring and Bottles. We can all get those easily from various vendors on the market. WizardLabs, Flavor West, Essential Depot etc. I'll use all 3 of those vendors in this example because Wizard Labs has some of the cheapest quality Nicotine backed by a lab, Flavor West isn't bad for flavors and ED has the cheapest pricing on PG/VG I've see at $54 for a gallon of each, shipped for free via UPS.


PG/VG - $55 for 2 Gallons (one of each from Essential Depot)

Nicotine - $56.99/500ml of 100mg/ml (from Wizard Labs)

Flavoring - $143.00/Gallon (Skittles Type from FlavorWest)

30ml Bottles - $0.55/each (from Wizard Labs)


PG/VG = $0.01 per ML

Nicotine = $0.11 per ML

Flavoring = $0.037 per ML


We'll use 15mg and 50/50 as our base. Using eJMU calculator, we need 4.5ml of Nicotine, 8.25ml PG, 12.75ml VG and 4.5ml Flavoring at a 15% mix. The cost for this, using the exact numbers below (with pricing pulled from the vendors sites as of this post) comes to $0.96 for that 30ml without the bottle. Add the bottle cost, now the completed product is $1.51 to me, the average DIY'er.

If we throw a label on there, we can add $0.10 to that and make it $1.61 (this based off pricing I know is valid from a run of 1,000 per roll).

Now, being generous to start-ups, let's say they can do a run at 50% of those costs, or $0.75, if the mark-up was 10,000%, as you said, the cost to me, the average consumer would be $75 per 30ml.


Five Pawns is $27.50/30ml on their non Castle Long Reserve juices (I think it's $37 when they have it), which is on the high-end of the spectrum of juice prices. If they make it for $0.75, represents 36x cost, without factoring in shipping, business/production costs, or any thing else for that matter. We're just looking at the cost of the juice itself, if they were to use Skittles only from Flavor West.


Not trying to be a smart-a**, but I am being realistic. Most DIY'ers go based off of small vials of flavoring or maybe an ounce (30ml), not the volumes that a business would need to handle orders.

As a business owner also unrelated to vaping,

1) I have for pursuits not related to vaping. Other than reusing that doesn't hold water because you get much better prices buying in bulk so for those that have bought, they paid a lot more than a business did.

2) No and from what I've seen very few businesses actually have custom flavors made for them and even fewer make their own.

3) Not for vaping, but I know from owning a business that most businesses are able to manage paying for overhead with 100% markup and others with perishable or seasonal goods manage with about a 250% markup. Explain why e-liquid needs a <10,000% markup from manufacturer to consumer when everyone else runs businesses on much less.

4) I have 5 years worth. I really don't see what the difference would be. If anything DIY has more problems with storage in living quarters than a business set up to do so would.

5) Yes, and I'm working on it. One I hit right off the bat. Another took a little tweaking. Another has taken months. From what I've seen a lot of the vendors don't, they have single flavor mixes.

Like I said, I can come up with a lot of reasons for reasonable markups to run a business. I can find no excuse for going from less than 1¢/ml manufacturing to 100¢/ml at the retail store. Especially not when you consider most liquids go direct from mixer to the retail store.
I could say niche market except that pricing helps keep it a niche market.

As far as "worry" as an excuse, if you can't handle the pressures of being in business get out of business. Original investment costs is a valid excuse, the pressures of running a business is not.

I don't have to worry about the price of my DIY because it's $300/5 years to make it vs $600/1 year to buy it.
A better guess than your worrying about the cost to a T is they have it marked up so much because they didn't want to figure it out to a T. They take an obvious profitable stab in the dark so they don't have to figure out how much it cost per ml per minute to turn on a lightbulb. I have some things priced like that, I don't need to know how much material or time goes into it because it's a competitive price, it sounds good to the customer and I know I'm making a ton on it. Other things I have figured out to a T to make sure I wasn't losing money at competitive pricing.

 

[Thunderball]

Why the bathtub analogy? Expensive doesn't mean it's good and cheap doesn't mean it's made improperly.

Yeah, I had to order 6 extra bath tubs to mix my six signature juices in..... They are shoved in the basement in the corner with all the mold.

 

[ambientech]

Why the bathtub analogy? Expensive doesn't mean it's good and cheap doesn't mean it's made improperly.

I do not compare juice on price. The bathtub analogy comes from the way it tastes, and many running a juice business from their home. I lost count how many times a juice I got tasted/smelled like soap or dirty socks or rotten food. Most of the juice I have tried that was cheap flat out sucked. Some exceptions, I absolutely love Bounty Hunter and it was one of the cheapest juices around at one time. I tend to like very complex flavors and most come at a premium. The ability to try a juice before buying, that is also complex is well worth $1 per mil. If I wanted one or two flavor juice I would DIY.

 

[Myk]

Can someone in the US really make juice for 1¢/ml? I have a hard time believing that. Also, I assume that bottles and labels count as part of the product expense. I just don't see it be anywhere near that cheap.

I'm going by what other DIY'ers said here. I don't remember what mine was but I found a receipt and will figure it out when I get back from buying batteries (want to talk about another price gouge it's batteries, when I worked in a store, I, a trained professional would put a battery in your watch for $5, or you can go buy one at a "discount" store for $5, in spite of my labor and overhead of running a store the markup was huge which tells you what these discount chains buying in massive bulk are making, batteries are perishable but not that perishable).
I'm thinking my liquid figure was more like 8¢/ml. Remember, I'm buying at small quantity hobbyist retail pricing, not wholesale bulk discounts (and I included shipping in my costs) so I don't think 1¢/ml is impossible.

I understand having to pay for bottles but that really shouldn't be included in markup. Doing stuff like that is how you end up pricing yourself out of business.

Yeah, I think the problem is that the market just isn't competitive yet. If the input costs are associated with the label and bottle, then they should just make the bottle bigger. It doesn't cost TWICE as much to offer a bottle of double size, yet a lot of vendors don't seem to offer any significant discount per ml for a larger size.

That's true.
I'm sure the bottles are a lot of the cost for those who use glass so why isn't there a drastic cut for buying in bulk?

If you think liquids are expensive now, just wait until you're paying the tax of one or two packs of cigarettes for every milliliter. All the cigalike vendors making ridiculous claims about their 1 ml cartos equaling 1-1/2 to 2 packs of cigarettes may come back to bite us all.

My hope is it's more innocent than blatant price gouging and when the taxes come a lot of it will be eaten like it was with tobacco so the customer won't see the sticker shock.

 

[Thunderball]

I tend to like very complex flavors and most come at a premium. The ability to try a juice before buying, that is also complex is well worth $1 per mil. If I wanted one or two flavor juice I would DIY.

Psst........Complex ( 5 to 7 or so flavors in one juice) isnt hard if you have the recipie. I was doing complex mixtures the first week I tried DIY......thanks to members and recipies and guidance in these forums....... Just to be aware....

 

[Train2]

Good breakdown Tactical, and it looks pretty accurate.
And it shows some key points: Cost for DIY as low as about $0.05/ml and a finished 30 ml bottle from a vendor (bottle being by FAR the most expensive component) being pretty certainly under $1.

So $30 IS a pretty dramatic markup. You just need to decide if their product is "premium" enough to warrant. Again - the prices are NOT determined based on the ingredient cost. I guarantee that there are vendors selling 15 mls of juice for $6 who spend MORE on their ingredients than other vendors selling 15 mls of juice for $10. Because they can. Because of brand, or reputation, or marketing, or superior recipes, or whatever.

 

[Myk]

Not trying to be a smart-a**, but I am being realistic. Most DIY'ers go based off of small vials of flavoring or maybe an ounce (30ml), not the volumes that a business would need to handle orders.

Yes, small EXPENSIVE volumes. Not huge discounted volumes mixing companies deal in.

You also included your bottles and labels in the price than you then put markup on them. Why not stick your electric bill in there and put markup on that too? I'm shopping somewhere else.

The 1¢/ml comes from other DIY'ers. I have a vague remembrance of where my prices came in and and that sounds reasonable to go with if they shopped right.
Like I said, at $300/5 years vs $600/1 year I really don't have to worry about how much my DIY costs so keeping track of it isn't a big issue for me. If I figure it out it will only be because of this thread (and because the math was easy to add up all the ml of what was in that order because I know it worked out to 18mg when mixed together).

 

[ambientech]

Psst........Complex ( 5 to 7 or so flavors in one juice) isnt hard if you have the recipie. I was doing complex mixtures the first week I tried DIY......thanks to members and recipies and guidance in these forums....... Just to be aware....

I am glad you find DIY easy and enjoyable. I tried DIY and it isn't for me. Time is money and my time is worth more to me than saving a few dollars on juice. I already have too many hobbies and not enough time. I started vaping to quit smoking, not pick up a hobby mixing juice.

 

[Myk]

Good breakdown Tactical, and it looks pretty accurate.
And it shows some key points: Cost for DIY as low as about $0.05/ml and a finished 30 ml bottle from a vendor (bottle being by FAR the most expensive component) being pretty certainly under $1.

So $30 IS a pretty dramatic markup. You just need to decide if their product is "premium" enough to warrant. Again - the prices are NOT determined based on the ingredient cost. I guarantee that there are vendors selling 15 mls of juice for $6 who spend MORE on their ingredients than other vendors selling 15 mls of juice for $10. Because they can. Because of brand, or reputation, or marketing, or superior recipes, or whatever.

Go back to the OP and this isn't about online vendors.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I agree that bottles shouldn't be factored in, but in most cases, they are since they are a cost to the business just as the chemicals and flavorings are, whether they create their own or buy pre-made.

As far as cost per ML, I'm sure larger companies can get it down if they're buying drums of flavoring or PG/VG, but for smaller start-up's, that's not always an option. It's not impossible, just not always an option.

I buy from the same 3 companies I mentioned in my post above, but I often buy from other flavor companies too. The cost for smaller sizes of flavoring costs more than it does by the gallon, so I'm not sure how you're dropping the costs to $0.08 or below without buying in bulk sizes, unless you just buy cheaper flavors (nothing wrong with that, btw).

Even at $1.49/8ml at Wizard labs, which is where most buy from to get started, that's $0.18/ml for just flavoring, which is already above 2x what you said your figure was.

I'm thinking my liquid figure was more like 8¢/ml. Remember, I'm buying at small quantity hobbyist retail pricing, not wholesale bulk discounts (and I included shipping in my costs) so I don't think 1¢/ml is impossible.

I understand having to pay for bottles but that really shouldn't be included in markup. Doing stuff like that is how you end up pricing yourself out of business..

 

[Steamix]

Whatcha groping about ? Ink for your printer is probably the most expensive liquid in the universe...

Still don't excuse the rather hefty price tags some vendors are slapping on their liquids ...

DIY rulez

 

[Criticalmass]

Yes, small EXPENSIVE volumes. Not huge discounted volumes mixing companies deal in.

You also included your bottles and labels in the price than you then put markup on them. Why not stick your electric bill in there and put markup on that too? I'm shopping somewhere else.

The 1¢/ml comes from other DIY'ers. I have a vague remembrance of where my prices came in and and that sounds reasonable to go with if they shopped right.
Like I said, at $300/5 years vs $600/1 year I really don't have to worry about how much my DIY costs so keeping track of it isn't a big issue for me. If I figure it out it will only be because of this thread (and because the math was easy to add up all the ml of what was in that order because I know it worked out to 18mg when mixed together).

Don't forget labor. Labor accounts for the highest part of overhead for most businesses.

I think Nicoticket's prices are reasonable. I think I paid something like $23.00 for a 50ml. Clark I believe says he does the extraction for most if not all of the ingredients himself. This seams a reasonable price to me.

MBV I believe purchases a lot of their flavorings from another company and then they have some signature flavors that they blend together on their own. Their prices seem extremely reasonable to me because they don't bother with doing the ingredient extractions themselves. Some people won't buy ANYTHING but Organic. but Organic is just a word. Poisons come in organic form too. Tobacco used in all premium cigars is almost 100% organic with little to no non-organic pesticides used, and it causes cancer. I think people tend to get hung up on organic a little TOO much and end up paying a lot of money for little to no benefit in some cases.

As the business becomes more competitive companies like Mount Baker Vapor and Nicoticket will continue to succeed. Higher priced vendors will have to drop prices eventually to compete or risk losing too much business to stay solvent.

The e-cigarette market is in its infancy right now but I think the liquid market is maturing pretty quickly. In some cases quicker than the mod market. As the mod market has probably 2-3 reliable companies that product good quality product and the rest are individuals working out of their home. Innokin I think is really trying to make a quality product (hence the rivits in the iTaste vv 3.0 to fix problems with it). But I don't believe the rest of the Chinese companies have gotten the memo on quality yet and the MVP 2.0 from 101vapes is proof that a quality product can be made and sold with a decent set of features for well under $100.00

 

[Mitey F]

Go back to the OP and this isn't about online vendors.

At the vape stores around me, and at a lot of retailers online (snip)

Actually, it is

 

[ambientech]

I agree that bottles shouldn't be factored in, but in most cases, they are since they are a cost to the business just as the chemicals and flavorings are, whether they create their own or buy pre-made.

As far as cost per ML, I'm sure larger companies can get it down if they're buying drums of flavoring or PG/VG, but for smaller start-up's, that's not always an option. It's not impossible, just not always an option.

I buy from the same 3 companies I mentioned in my post above, but I often buy from other flavor companies too. The cost for smaller sizes of flavoring costs more than it does by the gallon, so I'm not sure how you're dropping the costs to $0.08 or below without buying in bulk sizes, unless you just buy cheaper flavors (nothing wrong with that, btw).

Even at $1.49/8ml at Wizard labs, which is where most buy from to get started, that's $0.18/ml for just flavoring, which is already above 2x what you said your figure was.

What? Bottles not factored in? The bottle is part of the product and should be factored in. It is obvious those complaining about the price have never run their own business. If they have they didn't make it... Someone mixing juice at home cannot be compared to someone operating a business. The product is the cheapest part, overhead is the killer. I guarantee the vendors who are operating a proper business are paying much more per mil when all overhead is factored in than any DIYer does.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Yes, small EXPENSIVE volumes. Not huge discounted volumes mixing companies deal in.

You also included your bottles and labels in the price than you then put markup on them. Why not stick your electric bill in there and put markup on that too? I'm shopping somewhere else.

The 1¢/ml comes from other DIY'ers. I have a vague remembrance of where my prices came in and and that sounds reasonable to go with if they shopped right.
Like I said, at $300/5 years vs $600/1 year I really don't have to worry about how much my DIY costs so keeping track of it isn't a big issue for me. If I figure it out it will only be because of this thread (and because the math was easy to add up all the ml of what was in that order because I know it worked out to 18mg when mixed together).

If you operate a store / B&M, you factor in all associated costs. That's just part of it and it's a cost of doing business. If nothing was factored in other than chemical costs, the business would be absorbing all other costs which would severely impact profits at the end of the year. No business is going to say utilities, employees, potentially insurance (if they offer it), spills/breaks and other such items are just absorbed. Their pricing is planned around all of that so they can be sustainable.

Does it really warrant a 30 x Cost price tag? Maybe not to you, but you don't know enough about their business, nor do I. The numbers I provided are based on chemicals + bottles + labels, nothing more.

All other costs to the business have to be made up, otherwise they'd just be making it out of their basement (and I'm sure some have or do - I don't know which, but I won't exclude that).

Go back to the OP and this isn't about online vendors.

It doesn't apply to just online vendors. B&M's and some online shops are no different really. Some sell to the public, others use their shops just to mix and sell 100% online. All the costs a B&M incurs, a non-public shop incurs too. Those numbers apply to any business starting out that doesn't buy in huge bulk drums. If I took the pricing we have locally in Johnson City, TN, it'd come to $22/30ml after tax. So based on those prices, bottles are included in the mark-up.

I know they don't buy in drums, but that pricing has to come from somewhere and no-one is complaining about it.

 

[Mitey F]

What? Bottles not factored in? The bottle is part of the product and should be factored in. It is obvious those complaining about the price have never run their own business. If they have they didn't make it... Someone mixing juice at home cannot be compared to someone operating a business. The product is the cheapest part, overhead is the killer. I guarantee the vendors who are operating a proper business are paying much more per mil when all overhead is factored in than any DIYer does.

I'm confused as to what overhead you think a juice retailer has... some flavorings, some bottles, and some pg/vg... that's it. They're not mixing up bottles of juice and stocking it, then waiting to sell it (most of the time). They're waiting for an order, then mixing and shipping. Very little overhead involved.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

What? Bottles not factored in? The bottle is part of the product and should be factored in. It is obvious those complaining about the price have never run their own business. If they have they didn't make it... Someone mixing juice at home cannot be compared to someone operating a business. The product is the cheapest part, overhead is the killer. I guarantee the vendors who are operating a proper business are paying much more per mil when all overhead is factored in than any DIYer does.

Shouldn't be factored in as a cost that is marked up, let me rephrase . Yes, the bottle should be included in the cost, but not the mark-up.

 

[ambientech]

I'm confused as to what overhead you think a juice retailer has... some flavorings, some bottles, and some pg/vg... that's it. They're not mixing up bottles of juice and stocking it, then waiting to sell it (most of the time). They're waiting for an order, then mixing and shipping. Very little overhead involved.

I am not talking about vendors mixing juice at home.

You have never run a business otherwise you would know certain overhead is a guarantee. Things like rent on the building, utilities, insurance, paying employees, paying an accountant to do your taxes so you don't screw up and go to jail.