Metal and Silicate Particles Including Nanoparticles Are Present in Electronic Cigarette Cartomizer Fluid and Aerosol

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Schnarph

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I sandblasted glass for years. I wore the best respirator mask I could buy. There is absolutely no way we are vaping any particles at all that are as dangerous as what I dealt with. I, for one, am not even slightly worried. I do plan on using an rba with natural fibers for wicks as soon as I can afford one, but that is mostly for cost reasons.
 

jamie

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I guess you never opened used a Boge carto. Every one of them is burned inside even has burned holes in the coil wrap. I've been saying for a long time this can't be good for health.
It's definitely not just Boge. There were a lot of threads with photos showing this after cartos hit the market. Quite a few of us expressed concern. The same cartos are still (mostly) on the market.

That said, I have no knowledge that would be helpful in judging the data in this report and always appreciate interpretation from those of you who do.
 

Berylanna

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I sandblasted glass for years. I wore the best respirator mask I could buy. There is absolutely no way we are vaping any particles at all that are as dangerous as what I dealt with. I, for one, am not even slightly worried. I do plan on using an RBA with natural fibers for wicks as soon as I can afford one, but that is mostly for cost reasons.

I think you'll find taste reasons once you try one!

Yeah, now that you mention it, when I was working in a metal-grinding room at that watch factory, the insides of our noses were BLACK by lunchtime every day, and that was WITH the (ill-fitting) masks provided. The insurance company put a stop to THAT, it was hilarious. Shut the whole place down at 10am, they had vents over the grinders and masks in two sizes at the door, and posters on the walls saying to change the filters at lunchtime, AND, for the first time, enough new filters to go around, BY the BEGINNING of swing shift that same day. All because someone called to find out if there is such a thing as masks in women's sizes.

Even after that I'm sure we got more in 4 hours than you could get vaping in a decade.

I also find it interesting that lead was not mentioned in the study, which makes me think we're already getting better QA from e-cig makers than we get from toy makers.
 

cherrycakes

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You probably are inhaling burnt material, of what, I don't know. But think about all the burning things you put yourself around on a weekly basis in the normal air. A lot.

And metal takes a lot more to burn than wick material, obviously. I'll let someone answer your question in more depth but think about inhaling a burning wick on occasion while vaping VS burning tobacco leaves covered in nasty chemicals. Which is worse? If you were a smoker previously I wouldn't worry too much about a burning wick, or whatever is burning.


don't let it get dry and then you won't have to worry about it ;)
 

Txrider

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www . plosone . org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0057987

PLOS ONE: Metal and Silicate Particles Including Nanoparticles Are Present in Electronic Cigarette Cartomizer Fluid and Aerosol

Can anyone with a more scientific mind rip this to shreds?

I won't rip it to shreds, maybe explain a little after reading the paper. Aerosol refers directly to the vapor produced by the cart from a smoking machine. They tested 60 puffs of 4.7 second duration. I assume since the batteries would cut off at 5 seconds as many do they stopped just short of that.

They found mainly particles from the pieces that make up the atomizer/cart. Most look like they come from the solder joints, the coil, and the wick. The same thing people have been talking about here forever, and the study even directly mentions both this forum, and comments made here at this forum.

The burned carts were also mentioned and it was assumed to have been done at the factory as quality control, such as putting one cart on a machine to at random from a batch to check to make sure it worked. Their words were that some seem to have been "extensively" tested.

They also stated that this brand requires a pretty stiff airflow to activate and the requirement for so much airflow to use the cart probably contributed to the amounts found.

Most of the metals they say came from the solder used to solder the coil to the copper wire, while some came from the larger copper wire that attaches the coil and the juice seemed to have leeched some of it from the copper wire. They also picked up some chromium they assumed came from the battery connection, my assumption would be tiny particles dislodged from natural thread wear when threading the cart onto the battery.

They also found silica particles from the silica wick in the aerosol. It would seem at a higher rate than the metal particles.

As for amounts and how much of a risk it might be I don't have time to dig that up, but the graphs they show do not seem to show much difference between room air levels of particles, though the room air they compared it to had silica but no metal particles of tin or nickel or copper.

My gut feel without spending a day qualifying it is that it shows what we have discussed ad nauseum here on these forums, and the test may have actually been designed after a researcher read up on the issues here on this forum. It shows that solder joints, copper wire, silica wicks and even the nichrome coil such do give off particles, very very small ones. My gut feel is that it's not at a level I personally would be concerned about, especially since I don't use a cartomizer, never have and don't have solder in my ecig. I will likely switch from silica wicks as well.

I may soon get into the nitty gritty and quantify exactly what those amounts of particles mean but at the levels shown it's not something I would worry about short term, but only on a longer 10-20 year time frame. After smoking 40 years, working on asbestos brakes for years back in the day as well as so much welding and grinding and such I have breathed the fumes of for 40 years it's not even on my radar screen. I get likely thousands of times more exposure just from working as a mechanic, going outside on a dusty windy day, or driving through a metro area and breathing the smog.

To put it in perspective, I have surely breathed in more particles of all these types sandblasting the last antique truck I restored than you would in probably several lifetimes of using these carts, but- in this one regard the ecig seems to be on par with a normal cigarette.
 

Txrider

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I wonder how many "particles" I breath in
while sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic behind an 18-wheeler ??
:confused: :p

Just being in a metroplex area at all, even in your air conditioned home, you likely breathe in more particles of all these things than from an e-cig. It's certainly the case in Dallas as it is so dusty here at times I'm sure we are breathing in waaay more silica dust than an inhaling an entire wick quite often. Silica is very common, it's basically sand or quartz crystal fine enough to be considered dust. Silicosis is from inhaling silica dust less than 10 micrometers in diameter, lots of it, every day, for years. The particles they found were far smaller than 10 micrometers.

It is my understanding, I could be mistaken, but the silica they found was very round beads, which would be not much threat as they it's the sharp edged silica dust that sticks in your lungs and never leaves. I would think it a minimal threat.

OSHA allows 0.1 mg/m3 as safe to breathe, the study doesn't really give a good comparison data to compare.

They do say that a 4.7 second puff gave approx 4,000,000 total combined particles of all kinds, and that a cigarette gives 8,800,000,000 total particles, but if that is a total for a whole cigarette vs one puff is unclear.

The studies conclusion does not state that the levels are dangerous, only that these finding might be helpful for manufacturers to use in choosing materials and design of construction to reduce or eliminate the particles.

It would seem they are most concerned with the tin particles which they assumed to be mainly from poor solder joints. I personally do not use an ecig that has any copper wire nor solder, so only the silica would be a concern for me, but at those low levels and the type of round smooth beads they found it's not something I am going to worry about.
 

Katya

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I didn't look at the study too thoroughly but I did find the pictures of what was tested interesting.

kamir4.png

Anybody ever gut a used carto and have the filler come out looking like that? :blink:

I haven't gutted many, but I've never seen anything like that. Every single one has been white. Kinda looks like they burnt the hell out of. I'm inclined to believe they didn't put juice in them based on this image. That, or they really (and I mean it would have been impossible to inhale and would have tasted awful) burned it. If your filler is coming out like that, then something is very wrong.

Okay, reading more:


This, if true and widespread (somehow I doubt it,) may just be a real problem. I would really like to know where these cartos came from so I know not to buy them!

Most likely from this (or one of several, similar threads). There are also numerous threads about the dangers of silica, solders, etc.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...10-kr808-4081-etc-filler-type-cartos-832.html

This is what concerns me about this study; looks like this forum is being closely monitored by those who wish us ill.
 

Katya

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I've never even used a Boge carto. Are they that bad?

No, they are not. If used properly, kept moist, and not refilled a thousands times, used cartomizers do not look like that. But they are disposable, they were never even meant to be refilled, originally. I haven't burned a cartomizer in years, but I do use them responsibly and I understand their limitations.
 

DC2

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This is what concerns me about this study; looks like this forum is being closely monitored by those who wish us ill.
Or at least by Prue Talbot.

She works at the UC Riverside, which is about 45 minutes from where I live...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rossly-misrepresents-facts-2.html#post8981418

I have been working on making an appointment with her during her office hours.
I am not sure how such an appointment would turn out, but I am interested in find out.
 

Katya

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Or at least by Prue Talbot.

She works at the UC Riverside, which is about 45 minutes from where I live...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rossly-misrepresents-facts-2.html#post8981418

I have been working on making an appointment with her during her office hours.
I am not sure how such an appointment would turn out, but I am interested in find out.

Oh dear lord....

Thanks, DC2. I'd love to be present at that meeting. ;)

I have also been wondering about those "nonsmokers wishing to vape" who appear almost every week now in New Members forum, causing a lot of uproar. Are they for real, or are they possibly agents provocateurs gathering more ammunition? I don't want to sound paranoid, but it concerns me. Since the ANTZ cannot produce even a shred of credible evidence that vaping is actually harmful, the last line of attacks seems to be that vaping "glamorizes smoking all over again" and "attracts nonsmokers and children."

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.....
 
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Big Screen D

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I've taken more than a few carto's apart. You know, the clear ones that come apart when you least expect it.

That coil/wick could not have been used with e-liquid in the carto shown in the pic. There is zero residue on the coil.

Now I've seen some gunked up filler material. It is usually just carmilized juice that stains the wick, coil, diaper, and filler. Only the most desperate vapor would vape a carto that has burned through to the filler. That carto would be in the garbage.
 

Jjshbetz11

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From what I gathered from the info is the carto was from a cig-alike device. With that, I would totally think a newb vapor could and would vape a cardo to the point where it could be burnt just from the inexperience of vaping. Maybe a shut off option be offered in newbish devices? Some sort of puff counter witch could regulate the firing of the device?
 

Big Screen D

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From what I gathered from the info is the carto was from a cig-alike device. With that, I would totally think a newb vapor could and would vape a cardo to the point where it could be burnt just from the inexperience of vaping. Maybe a shut off option be offered in newbish devices? Some sort of puff counter witch could regulate the firing of the device?

IDK. I'd think the wrong side of the cigarette lit syndrome would kick in. In any case, it's not like inhaling burnt plastic once or twice in a lifetime is going to kill someone. I'm still kicking after all!:2cool:
 

kristin

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I have also been wondering about those "nonsmokers wishing to vape" who appear almost every week now in New Members forum, causing a lot of uproar. Are they for real, or are they possibly agents provocateurs gathering more ammunition? I don't want to sound paranoid, but it concerns me. Since the ANTZ cannot produce even a shred of credible evidence that vaping is actually harmful, the last line of attacks seems to be that vaping "glamorizes smoking all over again" and "attracts nonsmokers and children."

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

This is just my personal opinion - not CASAA policy or necessarily the opinion of other CASAA directors....

If we are successful getting the TRUTHFUL message out that e-cigs are very low risk products, more and more non-smokers trying e-cigs is inevitable. Even with all of the warnings, there are over 1,000 new regular SMOKERS every DAY (and over 3,000 non-smokers per day just TRY smoking for the first time.) How can we argue that some of those 1,000 people who would have become regular smokers today wouldn't try vaping instead because they believe its safer? Maybe instead of denying it, we should show the benefits of that happening? How can the ANTZ argue its bad if 500 or more of those 1,000 soon-to-be smokers today used a much safer, smoke-free alternative instead? Is it better they don't start vaping if they don't smoke? Absolutely! But if those 1,000 people a day have decided to disregard the warnings about smoking when the ANTZ are telling them "don't smoke," how likely is it they'll listen when just being told "don't vape?" What if, to protect our image, we convince those potential smokers not to vape and they start smoking instead? To me, its kind of like refusing to give condoms to prostitutes, because you don't want to "support" prostitution, knowing full well that means if they do have sex it will now be unprotected.

Its a tough position we are in as vapers, because doing the right thing could have unintended consequences; whether you think the right thing is to send current non-smokers packing or supporting them vaping so they don't BECOME smokers. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :(

Personally, I'd like to see us win the argument that we are helping keep those 1,000 new smokers a day from becoming those smokers - because that would be the truth. But it wouldn't be easy. We would face the same criticism and challanges as those who advocated for clean needles for drug addicts and condoms for sexually active teens and prostitutes.

Just something to think about before immediately jumping on a non-smoker who is considering vaping....
 
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Katya

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Its a tough position we are in as vapers, because doing the right thing could have unintended consequences; whether you think the right thing is to send current non-smokers packing or supporting them vaping so they don't BECOME smokers. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :(

Personally, I'd like to see us win the argument that we are helping keep those 1,000 new smokers a day from becoming those smokers - because that would be the truth. But it wouldn't be easy. We would face the same criticism and challanges as those who advocated for clean needles for drug addicts and condoms for sexually active teens and prostitutes.

Just something to think about before immediately jumping on a non-smoker who is considering vaping....

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Those who wish us ill will turn everything against us, no matter what we do or say. That's the problem.

I agree with you, Kristin. My fear is that at least some of those "nonsmokers seeking to vape" may not be real. I have a strong suspicion that some of them may be Prue Talbot's undergraduate students doing their homework assignments in the New Members forum. That's what worries me.

I may be paranoid, but I'm not the only one feeling that way. :)
 

Petrodus

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Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Those who wish us ill will turn everything against us, no matter what we do or say. That's the problem.

I agree with you, Kristin. My fear is that at least some of those "nonsmokers seeking to vape" may not be real. I have a strong suspicion that some of them may be Prue Talbot's undergraduate students doing their homework assignments in the New Members forum. That's what worries me.

I may be paranoid, but I'm not the only one feeling that way.
:)
Those opposed to e-smoking (including BP and the FDA) have been monitoring
the ECF for years. Some have joined and sometimes they "uncloak" and post.
Most will not post because they've seen what happened to others when they
posted pro-FDA and Pro BP comments.
:laugh:
 
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