my opinion: heavy users are downfall for the rest

[Ar10shooter]

I'm not a cloud chaser or sub ohmer. Here is the thing though people have rights to peruse happiness to some that means blowing huge clouds, to others that means not inhaling other peoples big clouds. So I say enjoy your clouds all you want, but be polite. Don't do it where smoking is not permitted and when your outside don't blow it into people's face. Just be polite if someone has a problem then it's theirs as long as you were polite.

I manage a large grocery store so I go outside to vape, I have never gotten any attitude from customers walking by me as I smile and say hi. I have however had dozens if not hundereds of people as about my e-cig. All have been polite and curious how it's working and how long I have been off smokes. The key is simple be polite.

 

[quadraginta]

"The point I am making is about other people's perception of the hobby in public places, which might understandably stir up some controversy."

Yes, it did.

"To most people, whether you like it or not and whether it's "scientifically" right or wrong to you, what looks like smoke is smoke. You cannot blame people for this and you have to take it into account."

You can blame people for it. Ignorance is not a defence, and if they start throwing a fit because of their ignorance then they are not behaving politely or considerately. Nobody has to take such behaviour "into account". "There's no smoke without fire" has never been a reasoned argument. All imho, of course.

Sure. Go ahead.

Blame 'em.

Thing is, it won't make any difference. It won't change things.

I blame fundies for brainwashing their kids into mindlessly following superstitions enshrined in a collected volume of oral tradition mythologies, but that ain't gonna change the fact that close to half the country believes in creationism.

And then there's Climate Change and AGW.

Diet and "nutritional" supplements. Anti-vaccers. Truthers. Birthers. Etc, etc., etc. The list is endless.

But blaming them doesn't address the issue in any legitimate fashion. And you aren't going to change their beliefs and attitudes by getting in their face. All you're gonna do is piss 'em off, and convince them they were right all along.

It might make you feel better. Somehow. More righteous or something.Valiant defender of liberty and all that.

But it won't help a thing, and will probably make things worse. If you want to change people's preconceptions and prejudices you won't succeed by alienating them.

 

[sneakerpimp]

listen, I get those of you who smoke big and thick vapers and want to toss out thick as hell vapes, like a cigar, but you guys are going to cost the rest in the eyes of the ignorant. I plea to you to not use .... type vapers too much in public.

....

You heavy smokers want to ruin it for us non heavy smokers like its your assault rifles and I will never back you on it. Stick to e-cgs for public use or get it GONE.

blaming our own for what they will do.. that’s rich.

 

[quadraginta]

No body cares about cloud chasers. They are to busy thinking "what about the kids" to even notice a 0.35Ω dual coil cloud. The biggest (and practically only) critics of Cloud Chasers are Vapers...

That's probably because only vapers have ever heard those terms. It doesn't change the fact public vaping is used as a bugbear for the folks who want to stifle vaping. We know that there's a difference. They don't and don't care.

Read the news, cloud chasing article represent 0.001% of all the articles. The common themes are 1-Kidz 2-Not harmless water vapor 3-vaping-bans (regardless of the amount of vapor).

Making scapegoats out of Coud Chasers serves no one.

That may be a fair criticism for the OP but the discussion has gone beyond that, and I don't think that most of the people in this thread are actually trying to do that, or make a scapegoat out of anyone at all.

However, having said that, the more conspicuous public vaping in close quarters is, the worse the problem will be, and I suspect it's safe to say that "cloud chasers" probably aren't among the top of the "stealth" vaping group.

 

[quadraginta]

I look at it like this, people don't like getting breathed on. If you were an inch away from somebody on just breathed on them, they wouldn't like it. Now, if they're ten feet away, your breath will still eventually get to them, but they won't notice.

When you vape, you're "coloring" your breath. So now that person can tell that your breath is "touching" them. Nothing else has really changed (hell, if anything, the vape probably smells better), but now they know.
"
I don't think vapers need to hide. I just think they need to follow the simple rule everybody else in the world should "don't be a jerk". Don't blow clouds in people's faces and so on. I don't hide it, I don't make a big deal of it either, I do it like there is nothing wrong with it, like it doesn't need any attention at all.

This. The simple rule to follow.

I don't think that needs to be taken as a personal attack on liberty. It's just part of being in a civil society.

 

[Steam Turbine]

That may be a fair criticism for the OP but the discussion has gone beyond that,

Yes, of course... I'm talking to the OP. That's how it works.

OP ----> Discuss OP.

Every thing else is TL; DR

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Hook, line and sinker.

 

[DC2]

The point I am making is about other people's perception of the hobby in public places, which might understandably stir up some controversy. To most people, whether you like it or not and whether it's "scientifically" right or wrong to you, what looks like smoke is smoke. You cannot blame people for this and you have to take it into account.

No.

The powers that be are going to continue trying to spread vaping bans in every city, county, and state in the country.
The are going continue trying to spread them in every local board of health and and every hospital and on every college campus.

And they are doing it NOT because the average person thinks it looks like smoking...
They are doing it because vaping is a direct threat to them financially, and a direct threat to their decades-long agenda.

And how do you think we will stand a better chance of stopping them?
--By hiding our vaping away from the public
--By educating the public that vaping is nothing to be scared of

The answer, clearly, is education.
And that can only be done by us as vapers.

If the public at large REMAINS ignorant, then that is OUR fault.
And if they REMAIN ignorant, then they will support all these bans which will have no trouble passing.

Thus, I don't blame them for being ignorant.

You may not blame them for being ignorant, but who is to blame if they REMAIN that way?

 

[e-pipeman]

Sure. Go ahead.

Blame 'em.

Thing is, it won't make any difference. It won't change things.

I blame fundies for brainwashing their kids into mindlessly following superstitions enshrined in a collected volume of oral tradition mythologies, but that ain't gonna change the fact that close to half the country believes in creationism.

And then there's Climate Change and AGW.

Diet and "nutritional" supplements. Anti-vaccers. Truthers. Birthers. Etc, etc., etc. The list is endless.

But blaming them doesn't address the issue in any legitimate fashion. And you aren't going to change their beliefs and attitudes by getting in their face. All you're gonna do is piss 'em off, and convince them they were right all along.

It might make you feel better. Somehow. More righteous or something.Valiant defender of liberty and all that.

But it won't help a thing, and will probably make things worse. If you want to change people's preconceptions and prejudices you won't succeed by alienating them.

It is always a pleasure to note how comfortable you are with distorting what someone has said to match your own agenda. And if you think that's ad hominem then I would suggest that calling people self-righteous is downright rude. Why don't you stick your head where the sun don't shine?

 

[DC2]

When you vape, you're "coloring" your breath. So now that person can tell that your breath is "touching" them. Nothing else has really changed (hell, if anything, the vape probably smells better), but now they know.

If anything it will smell better AND sanitize the air around them.

 

[Jman8]

#1 ok for the record we are still ignorant to vaping on the effects on health from diacetyl, acetoin, and acetyl propionyl.

We (vapers, that stay up with scientific data) are not ignorant about SHV. All these things you cite are not items we are ignorant on. We are aware that these pose some sort of risk for direct inhalation from a device. What that risk is in the short term is known anecdotally. What that risk is for the long term is unknown, though is similar to all other technological advancements that have come into existence in the last decade (i.e. iphone). No one knows for certain. But when it comes to SHV, the data is available. I'm glad to cite it here if there is claim that 'we have no idea.'

#2 This may have a "POTENTIAL second handsmoke effect" - Unknown (may be cancerous may be perfectly fine)

Also willing to debate the SHS effect. I realize this is where issue stems from. I believe science on that has been intentionally skewed, and that reality is we are dealing with perception that amounts to mass brainwashing. To ignore this mass perception is likely not helpful to SHV debate. But here on forum where this may be tossed out as data of utmost importance, I'd just assume discuss this tangent in detail if there are assertions suggesting SHV may equal SHS in terms of harm to bystanders. Where I would likely conclude that sure, this is likely true as neither are all that harmful and are indeed relatively harmless.

#3 The visual of "smoke" produced by cloud chasers may indeed be more frightening to the ignorance of those that dont know of ecigs

I find this point less debatable than your #1 and #2. Yet, I would note as one that vapes indoors with others around, frequently, that it doesn't necessarily cause fear. And may cause wonderment. Generally seems to be treated as if person in same space is drinking coffee, as in, really don't care what you are doing, live and let live. But I recognize that there is the mass perception thing at work, around SHS, and that vaping could, rather easily, be perceived in line with that mass perception, with regards to SHS. That doesn't bode well for vapers, in a very generalized way. Though 2 points ought to be made clear:

1 - Vaping indoors, with respect / courtesy is entirely plausible. It is what I consistently advocate for and mostly to always practice. Part of this point is that a lot of the time when I'm vaping openly (as opposed to stealthily) in public places, I do it in a manner where I am unlikely to be seen because in most places I go, there are pockets of space where no one appears. Hospitals, malls, schools, megastores are all prime examples of what I speak of. I can vape there, and even a fellow vaper would have zero clue that I did, and I didn't try to hide it. I did it like I belonged there, but do so in a way that equals respect.

2 - Not all vapers are cloud chasers. Most vapers, I strongly believe, are not blowing vapor into people's faces.

#4 Even if #3 is correct i would never want to infringe upon the rights of a fellow vaper or participate in shaming him for vaping

Thumbs up.

#5 If #1&2 are correct i am "A ok" with being shipped away to the smokers section why? because i cant and wont willingly and knowingly cause harm to others(of course studies would have to be done)

I can relate to this reasoning, though I would think it would make more sense to have section for vapers that is not with smokers as many vapers are now anti-smoking.

Obviously, though, I dispute the veracity of #2, and based on scientific data to date, think #1 is item we vapers ought to know is essentially a non-issue.

#6 I say cloud chasers may be adding a problem but oh well because i think the freedom is much more important educating the ignorant is the way to go not demonizing fellow vapers

Mostly agree here as well. But cloud chasing isn't the issue. It's the disrespect thing. It's not that vaping / cloud-chasing is inherently disrespectful. Not certain locations, regardless of situation, are inherently disrespectful. Total disregard for those around you is the portion of the discussion that leads to conclusions of disrespectful behavior. Yet, that conclusion has almost nothing to do with vaping in public.

 

[JayQC]

No.

The powers that be are going to continue trying to spread vaping bans in every city, county, and state in the country.
The are going to try and continue spreading them in every local board of health and and every hospital and on ever college campus.

And they are doing it NOT because the average person thinks it looks like smoking...
They are doing it because vaping is a direct threat to them financially, and a direct threat to their decades-long agenda.

And how do you think we will stand a better chance of stopping them?
--By hiding our vaping away from the public
--By educating the public that vaping is nothing to be scared of

The answer, clearly, is education.
And that can only be done by us as vapers.

If the public at large REMAINS ignorant, then that is our fault.
And if they REMAIN ignorant, then they will support all these bans which will have no trouble passing.


You may not blame them for being ignorant, but who is to blame if they REMAIN that way?

The media is trying to discourage people from smoking because it is harmful.

Tobacco use has dwindled down by a large margin in the last 20 years.

Are you saying that the media is now backtracking by trying to demonize vaping so the "powers that be" can keep collecting taxes from the portion of the population who still smokes?

Their decade long agenda of keeping people hooked on cigs and watching them die?

Non-smokers who react aggressively to vaping have made a wise choice : Not smoking anything at all. I'm not talking about cig smokers talking smack, I scoff at them. But non-smoking fear mongers are not, as individuals, contributing to the "powers that be's" agenda of collecting taxes and murdering people with cigarettes, and these admittedly ignorant bystanders are certainly not doing this to convince you to revert back to analogs, they don't care what you do as long as you don't impair their right to breathe air and only air.

They react mostly out of curiosity, arrogance, fear or annoyment, all of them self motivated impulses to take action and not in the name of the greater Soylent Green that be, even if they were doing so unknowingly because the media is manipulating them.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but I think your third eye is suffering from a pretty severe outburst of blinding conjonctivitis, impairing it's clairvoyance.

 

[Jman8]

Problem is, it doesn't matter what the pols' motivations are. That's a topic for a different discussion.

Pols are not exactly our opposition. Arguably, our opposition is amongst us. Possible our opposition is us.

What motivates a vaper to conclude that the only proper place to vape in public is where smoking is allowed? This is germane to the discussion at hand. What motivates a vaper to conclude that whenever someone vapes in public, when others are around, it is inherently disrespectful? This is relevant to this discussion. Both these questions, when stated as assertions, are type of things our opposition is advocating for.

What the OP is talking about is the ammunition we, as vapers, give those pols to con their constituents into backing them.

Ammunition is vaping itself. Vaping, at the superficial level, appears to re-normalize smoking. Getting rid of the ammunition, from opposition's perspective means getting rid of vaping in society. Perhaps that is impossible, so next best thing is to shame usage to degree that smoking is. Where users might not even vape in own home, because of the harm it causes to people there via THV. You may be perfectly okay with it today, but if anyone else will be living in your residence at any point in the future, then THV is 'legitimate' consideration for why not to vape in own home, own car. THV appears, I hope, entirely far-fetched to anyone that is genuinely pro-vaping. To our opposition, it is in the arsenal and part of the game to be played going forward. We have enough media around currently to make anyone think twice about first hand inhalation. "We just don't know" and "there is no evidence" are popular memes for first hand inhalation. SHV stems from reasoning on the first hand usage as well as SHS reasoning. Media here is mixed, but as usage bans have popped up for reasons that aren't actually about the ammunition you speak of, then it is bonus points if vapers treat public vaping as inherently disrespectful and as politically toxic. Best not to do it, ever, anywhere, or you are 'part of the problem.' Support this notion and THV will be that much easier to roll you over on.

Like I said before, the lies and misinformation they use are bad enough, giving them ammunition which has some basis in fact, no matter how tenuous, is the worst thing we can do if we want to have a chance to stifle them.

And best thing we can do is vape openly, in public, with respect. This is not the only thing we can do, but it is the best thing. The other things we can do, such as educating with words and no action, are viable tactics going forward. But also have criticisms. Vaping in public with respect, has criticisms, but this is outweighed by the positives that come from this. As that may just read like 'my opinion,' then I feel up to and always happy to explore this further as I stand by notion that it is our best option going forward.

 

[TomGeorge]

The media is trying to discourage people from smoking because it is harmful.

Tobacco use has dwindled down by a large margin in the last 20 years.

Are you saying that the media is backtracking by trying to demonize vaping so the "powers that be" can keep collecting taxes from the portion of the population who still smokes?
.

The media is reporting on: the studies that are out there (many if not most of witch, in the beginning stage, were funded by BT), on whatever will get them the most rating (feermongering always gets ratings), and on stories that people bring them to report on (BT,big health companies, and most likely the government) all of whom will "bribe" and lobby the news to gain public support because they all have a lot of money at stake

 

[JayQC]

The media is reporting on: the studies that are out there (many if not most of witch, in the beginning stage, were funded by BT), on whatever will get them the most rating (feermongering always gets ratings), and on stories that people bring them to report on (BT,big health companies, and most likely the government) all of whom will "bribe" and lobby the news to gain public support because they all have a lot of money at stake

A lot of money at stake.......

It would be easy for tobacco companies to start offering vaping products, and some of them will jump the bandwagon soon so yeah....no. Tobacco companies will make money off of e-cigs sonner than later.

When the fear has been milked out of the e-cig business for all the money it could generate, they will move on to other things.

It's not hard to come up with scary things. It's a resilient business.

 

[Panorama911]

Kind of an off the wall opinion but certainly could be an issue....If and when the government decides what and how to regulate, the chances that equipment that produces the plumes of vapor will not be allowed. Certain power restrictions, ohm limits, juice ingredients and amounts, even wicks will most likely all be regulated....all for the sake of safety of course. The government will remove any aspect that makes vaping enjoyable as we see it today, they will make it to emulate analogs as close as they can and no more. It will be considered a "smoking cessation" device and not be marketed as "another fun" thing to do, this will be to keep children from wanting to vape. And in sum, they will make it so expensive as to discourage recreational use and/or abuse, then tax it out the wazoo.

 

[TomGeorge]

A lot of money at stake.......

.

$289 Billion a year in adverse health effects (cancer, copd...) in America
$17 Billion in sales tax from cigarettes alone
$35 Billion in PROFITS a year for BT

so I would say yeah a lot of money at stake.

it wold not be easy for them to offer vaping products. ecigs and cigs share no mechanical similarities. It would be a complete overhaul for them. could they do it? sure. but it would cost them a lot of money.

the news is always coming up with things to scare the public with, especially when their pockets are being lined.

 

[DC2]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but I think your third eye is suffering from a pretty severe outburst of blinding conjonctivitis, impairing it's clairvoyance.

The point I'm trying to make is that you don't understand the real issue here.

A lot of money at stake.......

It would be easy for tobacco companies to start offering vaping products, and some of them will jump the bandwagon soon so yeah....no. Tobacco companies will make money off of e-cigs sonner than later.

When the fear has been milked out of the e-cig business for all the money it could generate, they will move on to other things.

It's not hard to come up with scary things. It's a resilient business.

It's not Big Tobacco behind all of the ban attempts.

First and foremost it is and always has been Big Pharma from the start.
And the ones pushing for all these vaping bans are their national and local minions, and their government pawns.

There are two huge reasons why the ALA, ACS, Legacy Foundation, CTFK, and ASH all hate electronic cigarettes...
1) Big Pharma pays them handsomely to do so
2) If everyone quit smoking they would all lose their jobs

And it is precisely the organizations like those above that are pushing these vaping ban legislation initiatives across the country.
And it is precisely the organizations like those listed above that are seen by the media as authorities even as they push their lies to feed the public.

If you don't know all of this then you haven't been around long enough.

 

[DC2]

And all of that is before we even get into the fact that Big Government and taxes are starting to come into the picture more and more.

 

[Anjaffm]

No body cares about cloud chasers. They are to busy thinking "what about the kids" to even notice a 0.35Ω dual coil cloud. The biggest (and practically only) critics of Cloud Chasers are Vapers...

Read the news, cloud chasing article represent 0.001% of all the articles. The common themes are 1-Kidz 2-Not harmless water vapor 3-vaping-bans (regardless of the amount of vapor).

Making scapegoats out of Coud Chasers serves no one.

Well said. Precisely.

For those who despise vaping and vapers - present company in this thread explicitly included - it is much more convenient to blame vapers than to educate their surroundings. Blaming the victim is always nice and convenient. Especially if one despises the victim in the first place.

Hm... looking at the rabid anti-vaping and anti-vaper stances expressed in this thread, why don't I just go to a vegan forum, register there and then post steak recipes and attack vegans for being jackasses and living unhealthy lifestyles? That may be fun for a while. Especially if I can find somebody to pay me for such an activity The meat industry comes to mind.