Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux

[Jerms]

I don't mean to be slamming HHV, I'm a fan of the product and will continue to by from them. But this thread is good at asking questions to try to learn more, sometimes more than a vendor wants us to know.

At least unlike Backwoods Brew, HHV actually says which are NETs and which aren't lol.

 

[Jerms]

I guess Legend and Serendipity might be similar, but the difference is one just doesn't seem blended IMO.

Also how is tobacco extracted? What's the procedure? You can link if you like. TIA.

O boy.. that's a big question lol. The answer is found in part one of this thread, but I certainly don't expect people to read all 15000 posts. I can say if you keep subscribed you will learn a lot about the processes.

Most NETs are made by a simple maceration, aka soak. tobacco leaves submerged in pg/vg which can be heat assisted or not, and can very from a couple days to many weeks. It's then filtered and the result is an extract to be used as tobacco flavoring. You can learn a lot about maceration in the DIY section, including Scarf-Ace's slow-cooker method.

More advanced methods include CO2 extraction and steam distillation. HHV's supplier uses steam distillation, as does Ahlusion with the non-aro line, Vermillion River, and Darth Vapers. I have no idea how those are made, but I think Mann has a pretty good understanding of all that. Ahlusion also uses CO2 extraction for the aro line, and maybe some in the non-aro line like Smooth Criminal, I'm not sure of other vendors that use that method.

 

[johni]

We have several home extracters here that I know sample their juices along the way. I'm curious, anybody notice any of their extracts have such a drastic flavor profile change as time goes on?

I know the one's Bills made taste pretty close to what the pipe tobacco is described as, does that change? Does cherry turn into coffee, tea, or chocolate?

I haven't noticed significant changes in flavor profile during extraction. Most of the change seems to be increased flavor intensity over time during a cold maceration.

If HHV utilizes steam distilled extracts, that would mean a fairly short extraction period I would guess. I can't imagine Legend and Serendipity coming from the same tobacco but who knows? I learned from them that "mystery fruit" isn't good for me.

 

[billherbst]

I haven't noticed significant changes in flavor profile during extraction. Most of the change seems to be increased flavor intensity over time during a cold maceration.

If HHV utilizes steam distilled extracts, that would mean a fairly short extraction period I would guess. I can't imagine Legend and Serendipity coming from the same tobacco but who knows? I learned from them that "mystery fruit" isn't good for me.

As a friend and colleague in macerated home extractions, I'm with John.

Flavor intensity of an extract varies according to many variables: type of tobacco used, the blend, freshness (moistness), base blend (PG/VG), length of the soak in time, temperature (either "cold-process," meaning room temperature, with a steep of multiple weeks usually, or "heat-assisted" in any of numerous procedures, with a steep of no more than about two days max). Generally speaking, the longer the extraction, the more intense the flavor of the extract.

Flavor profile, however, doesn't change regardless of the length of extraction, at least not in my experience. I sometimes "test" my extract liquid during the steep, siphoning off tiny amounts of liquid with a syringe and making a little DIY juice to taste how the maceration is proceeding. I've never noticed any differences in flavor profile from early on through the end of the soak. All 12 of my NETs---whether extracted from cigarettes or pipe tobacco blends---taste exactly like their source tobaccos, and as they were described online on the MilanTobacconists or Pipes&Cigars web sites.

Things can go awry that disrupt or destroy the flavor, of course. Too much heat could conceivably produce a burnt flavor in the finished extract, and extra infused flavors in the maceration can dramatically affect how the extract will taste. Put a single vanilla bean in with the maceration at the beginning of the steep or cook, and you will get vanilla-flavored tobacco.

Just yesterday I just had to throw out two cold macerations after three weeks because I used glass jars that had originally contained crushed garlic. The jars and lids had been thoroughly washed/scrubbed in soap and hot water, but the plastic liner seals inside the metal lids still retained a very slight, almost imperceptible aroma of the garlic essence. I could smell it in the lids ever so slightly, but I imagined---quite foolishly as it turned out---that it wouldn't be strong enough to affect the extract. Boy, was I wrong! Trust me when I say that garlic pipe tobacco is not something one wants to vape. LOL. Actually, the garlic wasn't obvious or easy to discern in the liquid, but it was enough to ruin the flavor of both extracts.

 

[papabogart]

According to MM... Adam said that both Legend and Serendipity are extracted from the same tobacco source which has neither a cherry, chocolate or coffee flavor in it from what I recall was said. The difference is the amount of extraction time with Seren being extracted a little longer. I think of it as "flavor matrixing"... sort of like "visual matroxing" were we see images that aren't really there like in the clouds etc... Our minds taste certain flavor elements and then just "thinks" cherry, chocolate or coffee... since everyone has different taste sensitivities... we get different reports from different people.

Excellent - not just a great analogy, but a superb analysis.

 

[PapawBrett]

Hello everyone, been awhile since I've ventured out of The Big Thread or REOVille. Hope everyone here is doing well.
I am looking for a smooth, mild Apple Tobacco. The only one I actually liked was Ahlusion, however A+ juices do not agree with my sinus allergies. HHV Caramel Apple Tobacco is OK but not quite what I'm looking for.
I'm looking at the VanApple Wood from the Vapor Hut and wonder if any of you NET enthusiasts could shed a little light on some good Apple Tobaccos. Any assistance would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[Chinook]

Just yesterday I just had to throw out two cold macerations after three weeks because I used glass jars that had originally contained crushed garlic. The jars and lids had been thoroughly washed/scrubbed in soap and hot water, but the plastic liner seals inside the metal lids still retained a very slight, almost imperceptible aroma of the garlic essence. I could smell it in the lids ever so slightly, but I imagined---quite foolishly as it turned out---that it wouldn't be strong enough to affect the extract. Boy, was I wrong! Trust me when I say that garlic pipe tobacco is not something one wants to vape. LOL. Actually, the garlic wasn't obvious or easy to discern in the liquid, but it was enough to ruin the flavor of both extracts.

Sorry to hear this Bill! Those liners in the lids are so tricky. I wash them in the dishwasher multiple times and the smell comes back once screwed back on the jar. A good example would be pasta sauce jars. Boy once I put the multiple times washed lids on in a clean jar, after a day, I can smell the pasta sauce in the jar!

I've been using small jars from beef/chicken base concentrates with lids that have no liners. Those don't impart any "extra" smell... Hmm, maybe I should try chicken flavored vape

 

[Jerms]

Thanks John and Bill. I was fairly certain that was the case, but you two actually have the experience of making your NETs. You two, Scarfy of course, and others are really paving the way of what we NET fans can do if regulation causes vendor NETs to be a thing of the pass, and is adding to our understanding of NETs in this thread. Bill's right that his brews really do taste like the descriptions of the smokable tobacco, which will really help me personally to get the types of flavors I want if I have to go that route.

 

[Jerms]

Hello everyone, been awhile since I've ventured out of The Big Thread or REOVille. Hope everyone here is doing well.
I am looking for a smooth, mild Apple Tobacco. The only one I actually liked was Ahlusion, however A+ juices do not agree with my sinus allergies. HHV Caramel Apple Tobacco is OK but not quite what I'm looking for.
I'm looking at the VanApple Wood from the Vapor Hut and wonder if any of you NET enthusiasts could shed a little light on some good Apple Tobaccos. Any assistance would be appreciated, thanks.

Hey Papaw, long time! You need either all VG or very high VG ratio if I remember right? That takes out Apple Cured from GeJ at 50/50 and Eden from HoL. I'm not sure the other apple-NET options, hopefully someone can chime in. Too bad an apple NET wasn't one of HHV's new releases. Have you considered DIY some apple flavoring to a straight tobacco NET that you like?

 

[Mr.Mann]

According to MM... Adam said that both Legend and Serendipity are extracted from the same tobacco source which has neither a cherry, chocolate or coffee flavor in it from what I recall was said. The difference is the amount of extraction time with Seren being extracted a little longer. I think of it as "flavor matrixing"... sort of like "visual matroxing" were we see images that aren't really there like in the clouds etc... Our minds taste certain flavor elements and then just "thinks" cherry, chocolate or coffee... since everyone has different taste sensitivities... we get different reports from different people.

Yes, but Adam said he doesn't himself "add" any "flavor components" to the extracts he receives, and that they are "single origin extracts" and his NETs from those extracts he gets are "single extract mixes." Without me having to point it out, there's a lot of wiggle room there.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I guess Legend and Serendipity might be similar, but the difference is one just doesn't seem blended IMO.

Also how is tobacco extracted? What's the procedure? You can link if you like. TIA.

I've posted this before, and even though this is in regards to essential oils, the premise is still the same: Steam Distillation, CO₂ and Absolutes

 

[johni]

Bill (and anyone else looking for good jars for tobacco extraction), buy some Amish jams in 8 oz. mason jars with the two part lids. Eat the jam, wash the jars, replace the seal part of the lid, and you'll have great vessels for almost no cost! I had three in the cupboard so three tobaccos per batch it is.

 

[jefsview]

I can only add that I had previously filled a clearo with Legend. During that tankful, it seemed to change and taste like Serendipity, then it changed back to Legend. It was early on, and I didn't pay attention to any change in volts used; but memory has it that I had let it set, then picked it up and it had changed. The next day, it was back to what it was suppose to be.

I don't recall changing the voltage. And I don't recall it every happening with Shadow and HA.

Also, whereas some might get chocolate, I usually get a raisin note in most HHV NETs. Except Oompa, which is really cacoa/cocoa/chocolate, and Huntsman/DH which is earthy, woodsy goodness

 

[boomerdude]

I have noticed that any of my extracts with chocolate or cherry come on very different after aging for a couple of months. My straight tobacco's stay the same once they have steeped.

We have several home extracters here that I know sample their juices along the way. I'm curious, anybody notice any of their extracts have such a drastic flavor profile change as time goes on?

I know the one's Bills made taste pretty close to what the pipe tobacco is described as, does that change? Does cherry turn into coffee, tea, or chocolate?

 

[EleanorR]

What would everyone’s favorite tobacco vape that is really awesome and easy on coils gunking up

Shipwreck, by Ahlusion. Tobacco + coconut and (reportedly) a splash of lime. Dee-licious!!

Nice! It's been a long time coming. See, when it comes down to it, in this thread all we want is some liquid to vape and to talk about. Damn who makes it and where it was made, but we do care what it was made out of. Oh, and I guess we care a little bit if it's good or not.


I have to ask: is there any word on what tobaccos are used? J/K

"Why, just a single extract tobacco, no flavors added whatsoever!"

If HHV utilizes steam distilled extracts, that would mean a fairly short extraction period I would guess. I can't imagine Legend and Serendipity coming from the same tobacco but who knows? I learned from them that "mystery fruit" isn't good for me.

Hello everyone, been awhile since I've ventured out of The Big Thread or REOVille. Hope everyone here is doing well.
I am looking for a smooth, mild Apple Tobacco. The only one I actually liked was Ahlusion, however A+ juices do not agree with my sinus allergies. HHV Caramel Apple Tobacco is OK but not quite what I'm looking for.
I'm looking at the VanApple Wood from the Vapor Hut and wonder if any of you NET enthusiasts could shed a little light on some good Apple Tobaccos. Any assistance would be appreciated, thanks.

Have you ever tried Vermillion River's Applebacco (in their Kentucky Premium Blend line)? I really like that one, but I don't recall offhand whether or not the KPBs are available in high VG.

 

[Jerms]

Here's an interview with Brian from River Bottom on YouTube (originally on one of the vaping "TV" sites. The interviewer is, I think, affiliated with Vaping Watch, which sells the RBFS juices. There is a bit of description on each juice.

Tower of Vape | Cirrus of Passage Episode 12 20140130 - YouTube

Ok just watched it. Brian seems like a great guy, very knowledgable about NETs and tobacco, humble and well-meaning. I'm excited to get into these juices, and the new ones scheduled to be released look to have some real potential.

There's just one issue, and I think it's a big one. At $22 and $29 for a 30ml bottle these are the most expensive NETs on the market as far as I'm aware of. $22 for 30ml doesn't seem excessive to me normally, it falls into the range I'm willing to pay for great juice. Even if all juice starts to cost a dollar per ml, I'm willing to pay it and it's still cheaper than smoking.

But because all the other great options for NET juice is cheaper, means that price is considered when considering these. If these truly are as great as Ahl, W2V, MOV, HHV, NETcom, and others and at the same price, many of us will jump on them and sing their praises. Being more expensive would make them hard to recommend unless they are BETTER than those, which is a tall order. I'm sure for many the Fog Sauce is better and worth the cost, but people will have to pay to play and find out.

I've harped on this before, but I just really wish these cost the same as other NETs because the guy seems like such a great guy and I kind of want to root for him and his product. It just sucks that to do that it'll have to be even better than I would normally expect of a NET. If one of these really does floor me though the price doesn't bother me, so I'm hoping to be floored.

 

[johni]

Just watched the River Bottom Fog Sauce You Tube. How can anyone watch two hours of this stuff? Anyway, after hearing Brian describe his flavor profiles I realized that with exception of his cigar flavors and artis, Bill and I have extracted something very similar to every one! I haven't tried any of his juices, and likely won't given the price and similarities between them and the current stash.

 

[Jerms]

Just watched the River Bottom Fog Sauce You Tube. How can anyone watch two hours of this stuff? Anyway, after hearing Brian describe his flavor profiles I realized that with exception of his cigar flavors and artis, Bill and I have extracted something very similar to every one! I haven't tried any of his juices, and likely won't given the price and similarities between them and the current stash.

Lol, yeah those shows are long. For anyone who wants to watch it, the first 7 minutes can be skipped by since it's intros and setting up. I only watched until the 59 minute mark because the library was closing, but it looked like they were just going to do giveaways and such. Did I miss anything noteworthy past the 59 min mark?

I thought it was interesting how he said that the cigar extracts are much more difficult than the pipe. Wonder if that's why there isn't nearly as much cigar offerings out there as pipe.

I liked that he said that he's following in the footsteps of other NET vendors. Not claiming that his are the best out there, just that he wanted NETs that taste like the blends he was used to from his pipe days so he made them for his own use and it kind of took off from there. Maybe you John or Bill will have a similar story one day lol.

 

[johni]

I don't think Bill or I aspire to become a vendor. Brian seems down to earth and reasonable. Listening to him actually reinforced my feeling that my home extractions are on the right track and that hanging out here has exposed us to substantial NET knowledge! It would be interesting to compare Periques as they are from the same tobacco.

 

[AndriaD]

AltCig (AC) – one or two tobaccos that are probably TA/TE-based


Tobacco Absolute
Tobacco Absolute (TA) is a commercial product made by various manufacturers (most famously in Bulgaria) that was used originally in the perfume industry. Natural tobacco is distilled or extracted into an essential oil carried as a suspension in an alcohol base. TA is super-super-concentrated and must be significantly diluted (e.g., 1:100 or more) for use in flavoring eliquids.

Tobacco Extract
The commercial product called Tobacco Extract (TE) is the same essential oil of TA suspended in a base of PG rather than alcohol. Usually sold in diluted form, TE is still very concentrated.

Used very sparingly and with restraint, TA/TE adds a smoky component to eliquids that is reminiscent of burning tobacco. Using a little more imparts to eliquids a “dirty ash tray” flavor that some vapers (who are usually ex-smokers) actually like. Using too much, however, ruins the flavor of the juice.


Whole Tobacco Alkaloids
Whole Tobacco Alkaloids
...The processes of deriving WTA from tobacco leaves are designed to reproduce in vaping similar physical/psychological effects on the nervous system (in terms of calming and satisfaction) that occur when smoking tobacco. WTA is often considered an aid to smoking cessation for new vapers still struggling to give up tobacco in any of its smoked forms,

This sounds like exactly what I'm looking for; I checked out altCigs and I only see one that seems to fit -- Bob's Krave Kutter. Do you know of any other flavors/makers/sites that offer this, the authentic taste and sensation? I realize that after I'm not actually smoking real cigarettes, that my tastes *will* change -- because non-smokers find the taste of cigarettes foul! But I really need this kind of "bridge," in order to get to that other side, the non-smoking side.

I've ordered, and am waiting for, a small 5mL sample from EC Blend, of a flavor actually called "Dirty Ash Tray," and many reviewers say it is "the closest to a real burning cigarette" they ever tasted; we'll see! Depending on how I feel about "Dirty Ash Tray," I'll either order it in a bigger size, or maybe try out the "Bob's Krave Kutter." Any others that anyone knows of like this, would be very welcome info!

Thx,
Andria