Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux
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Boomer and all,
That's the 64 dollar question where finer filtering is concerned: How fine can we go before we notice flavor loss?
I have no doubt that you did, indeed, notice diminished flavor at 2 microns. Johni and I didn't, but so what? For me to challenge the evidence of your palate would be not only presumptuous and rude, but probably inaccurate. For all we know, Johni's palate and mine might be less sensitive than yours. Increasing favor diminishment at each 1-micron step down from about 5 microns wouldn't surprise me at all---with just a bit at 4, a little more at 3, still more at 2, and significantly at 1 micron.
I don't know much about the science of flavor, such as what organic elements/molecules in tobacco carry flavor and contribute to the overall taste? and how big are those molecules? Makes sense to me that cellulose remnants from the cell walls don't contribute much, if any flavor, and we're filtering in large part to get rid of those clumpy particulates suspended in the maceration solvent, since they will burn/carbonize and end up as crud on the coils and goo clogging up the wicks. But some flavor-carrying molecules are likely to be big enough to be filtered out as well. So the whole process of finer filtering becomes a trade-off, and the very individual make-up of our nervous systems' flavor sensors and recognition no doubt play a part in determining the "ideal" stopping point in filtering for each of us.
That's the 64 dollar question where finer filtering is concerned: How fine can we go before we notice flavor loss?
I have no doubt that you did, indeed, notice diminished flavor at 2 microns. Johni and I didn't, but so what? For me to challenge the evidence of your palate would be not only presumptuous and rude, but probably inaccurate. For all we know, Johni's palate and mine might be less sensitive than yours. Increasing favor diminishment at each 1-micron step down from about 5 microns wouldn't surprise me at all---with just a bit at 4, a little more at 3, still more at 2, and significantly at 1 micron.
I don't know much about the science of flavor, such as what organic elements/molecules in tobacco carry flavor and contribute to the overall taste? and how big are those molecules? Makes sense to me that cellulose remnants from the cell walls don't contribute much, if any flavor, and we're filtering in large part to get rid of those clumpy particulates suspended in the maceration solvent, since they will burn/carbonize and end up as crud on the coils and goo clogging up the wicks. But some flavor-carrying molecules are likely to be big enough to be filtered out as well. So the whole process of finer filtering becomes a trade-off, and the very individual make-up of our nervous systems' flavor sensors and recognition no doubt play a part in determining the "ideal" stopping point in filtering for each of us.
It makes sense Tom. The botanical infusion in Acid blondies and KKs and the tea-botanical infusions in Cold Infusion cigars by Drew Estate are probably what are coming to the fore after a short steep.
The botanicals infused in acid blondies, kuba kuba and other botanical Drew Estate cigars are so sweet it is almost quite pleasing to lick the label and wrapper. I am guilty of taking a lick of the label on a kuba kuba and it is a complex and sweet flavour, even on the label and wrapper. It's no wonder that acid blondies and KKs are flavorsome after a short time.
I think cigars with flavor infusions or distinctive casings would reach a steep maturation much faster than the underlying inherent properties of a cigars filler, binder and wrapper.
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Makes sense to me. In NETs made from macerated extracts, casings/toppings are more obvious in the beginning and fully mature first, real tobacco flavors last. I'm inclined to think that the casing/topping flavors probably don't actually diminish much if any, but seem to be less later by comparison, after the tobacco flavors have strengthened.
I'm starting to think that cigar juices age like cigars in a humidor. The start revealing the depth of the [cigar] blenders intent with age. The flavors all have time to marry together and kind of equalize. I've noticed that after comparing the vaped taste of a couple of juices to their analog counterparts.
So, your observation makes some sense. The Nub Cameroon is a cigar that I would store for two months before expecting a good taste. Longer would probably be better because of the size. On the flip side the ACID is not meant to be a highly complex smoke. The main attraction is the infused elements. So, they are closer to their analog part sooner. I wouldn't bother storing an ACID CI more than a couple of weeks before smoking.
It really depends on the amount of casing used in the tobacco. My Milan Tobacconist Celebration will start to thicken up and get gunky pretty quick compared to one of MVJ's Drew Estate or Borkum Riff aromatics. That is even with my extract being filtered at 3 microns.
I'm going to try mixing over the holidays. Haven't done it before. I have the RBFS St. James, NET Black Cavendish and Smoked Latakia. These are all the vendor's pre-made blends and not straight or DIY extracts. Gonna go small though and as I feared there's math involved. hehe
Merry Christmas and happy holidays to you all here in Natural Tobacco.
This thread has been present for a few years now in my life and though many of my interests in other things are fleeting and contain short term novelty value, vaping NETs and reading and interacting on this thread, however intermittent, has been an enduring interest and mainstay in my life.
I hope this constituent of ECF continues onward into the future.
Thank you to all you lovers of NETs who's input on this thread has contributed to my education, appreciation and optimal use of NETs.
If I don't see you guys during this holiday period I will be back reading and hopefully contributing in the New Year.
I will be partly working during these holidays so I might go back and catch up on all those posts I missed
Be well all and don't let the 'silly' season cast you astray from vaping.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This thread has been present for a few years now in my life and though many of my interests in other things are fleeting and contain short term novelty value, vaping NETs and reading and interacting on this thread, however intermittent, has been an enduring interest and mainstay in my life.
I hope this constituent of ECF continues onward into the future.
Thank you to all you lovers of NETs who's input on this thread has contributed to my education, appreciation and optimal use of NETs.
If I don't see you guys during this holiday period I will be back reading and hopefully contributing in the New Year.
I will be partly working during these holidays so I might go back and catch up on all those posts I missed
Be well all and don't let the 'silly' season cast you astray from vaping.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Intersting, now comparatively my H&H Obsidian burns much cleaner ( and the e-liquid is also clearer) than my DE Meat Pie...and after sampling both ( excellent) you'd know why, I couldn't put the Meat Pie down and now it's the Obsidian, I'm just enthralled with these NETs.
Hey now, I was giving a look at that Butternut Burley and it looked....well, good, but people were saying that perhaps it was "too smooth", no?
I imagine it would translate much better in an extraction (heat, I suspect, would be the best for this tobacco. Just a hunch; No idea though) but yeh, casing is really a factor in gunk. All tobacco is cased or processed in some way. I know my Fire-cured Burley clogs my wick up faster than my normal Burley vapes, but the question is as to 'why', other than the darker color.
I am eyeing the Cake & Flake sampler, but I know it's been done over.
How's the Lane RLP?
As soon as I find something (heh, I may already have, not sure) that I haven't seen extracted somewhere or that I can commercially buy (not loose tobacco obviously) I'm going to extract one of those that seems to have a description along my preferences- I like all extremes of tobacco.... except the nasty ones.
For simplicity's sake, I'm sticking with pipe tobacco. Plus, I've liked PTE's (Pipe-Tobacco Extractions) a lot more than Cigar extractions (I couldn't think of anything clever for cigars that didn't sound terrible.) out of all the NETs I've vaped. Cig extracts, ehh, good but not showing the true beauty of tobacco IMO, but when you get into that carefully crafted, well-tested pipe blend range....well, it seems like anything is possible.
That said, I have not tried the Natural American Spirit which contains Perique.
I guess the closest I've tried is a couple of the French Cig offerings from NETCom, which I immensely enjoyed (was 50/50 on the fence about Blonde, which I liked better than Big Spirit but not quite as much as Brunes or Poilu- my inbound order has a 60ml bottle ofpoison Poilu riding along with it.
------------------------------
I guess I went off the beaten track a little, and ordered....um....a lot of things. Let me check the sheet. I just got most of the flavorings I'm going to be testing (Lab testing? Lordie, no. I can't afford to test 11 flavorings, but I plan on using them in very low amounts. Looks like WL and OSDIY have the widest range of natural, attested-to-be diketone-free, clear flavorings.
I got a few (well, several) of a certain company's from OSDIY (Lorann's) and noticed the obvious color inclusion. I have not cracked the seals on the dram bottles yet, but the Flavor West flavorings are much more appealing for DIY use (Hey, you know you want to "Hybridbacco while you Hybridbacco") just due to the fact they're entirely clear. Well, except for one of the vanillas I suspect may have a DA/AP substitute. Going to test the flavor and see if I detect that flavor (I have tested at least a few DA/AP juices and know precisely what a large amount in an e-juice [large enough for me to notice] feels like.) ...well, more like a texture of slippery-ness and an almost weird feeling that whatever you're vaping is "slippy" and not "smooth".
I have experienced this from 3-4 companies. Each time, it was the exact same texture, different flavor. Those bottles were shelved due to their nastiness....never imagined that they were in, fact, really nasty for my lungs.
If anything else, the whole testing of e-liquids thing and pushing mfg's to move towards safer compounds in general may very well cause a split- flavoring companies offering separate flavorings specifically geared towards vaping.
Anyone who has ever looked at an MSDS for any of the things we consume knows, as (I think it was rolygate) was said, that there is, "No [100%] safe vaping", (could be off but I know it was along those lines) yet we know that we are no longer burning tobacco and creating who knows what that cause the 99% of the cancer outside of the 1% actually killed by the carcinogen produced by burning nicotine itself (incidentally, the same compound that caused numerous chimney sweeps to develop cancer). The "99%" in this statistic is really an unknown. We don't know specifically what factor is going to kill people, but we know it has a significant risk of causing disease, if not death.
Smoked tobacco, or 'Analogs' in the case of cigarettes, is the main danger being prevented by vaping and all of the benefits provided by avoiding combustion of nicotine, burnt plant matter, and (possible) additives, discounting any discussion of Po-210 or Pb-210 (radioactive isotopes of polonium and lead, respectively) and how/whether it reaches the end-user (because I don't think Dr. F is planning on testing for that...) or whether it can even hypothetically be considered a possible contaminant in "pure"-in our case, diluted down for safety-nicotine.
No doubt this is something that needs addressed, just elsewhere on the forum (and really, in the vaping community in general- unless it's been confirmed this doesn't happen) to keep things on track here. However, since we are vaping NETs, I believe it's more relevant.
I also do not have the requisite knowledge to tell you whether it's even possible. If I spent a day researching just that, I might have a better idea; don't have the time right now, so my posts may be a bit more jumbled than usual. I'll try to break the topics into chunks.
-------------------------------
Anyhow,
I'm looking at Trout Stream or both of the Sherlock Holmes Pipe Club offerings.
You folks know what I've liked so far; any suggestions? Anything wild? I might just pick up a new one with few reviews and just figure it out on my own.
It's like shopping in a candy store when you look for flavorings and tobaccos. Jeez. Why didn't I start doing this sooner? I did the math; dram bottles will flavor a huge amount of juice and save you that much minus cost of adjuncts over and over. See you guys on that thread; I think I subbed to it, but if not just PM me if you don't see me over that way in the near future and I'll meander on over.
I think it was called "DIY Natural Tobacco Extraction" or something to that effect.I also think one of you guys started it. You know who you are.
(Turns out it's an entire subforum created by Rolygate, if I'm not mistaken. But hey, I like being wrong; means I learned something!)
I imagine it would translate much better in an extraction (heat, I suspect, would be the best for this tobacco. Just a hunch; No idea though) but yeh, casing is really a factor in gunk. All tobacco is cased or processed in some way. I know my Fire-cured Burley clogs my wick up faster than my normal Burley vapes, but the question is as to 'why', other than the darker color.
I am eyeing the Cake & Flake sampler, but I know it's been done over.
How's the Lane RLP?
As soon as I find something (heh, I may already have, not sure) that I haven't seen extracted somewhere or that I can commercially buy (not loose tobacco obviously) I'm going to extract one of those that seems to have a description along my preferences- I like all extremes of tobacco.... except the nasty ones.
For simplicity's sake, I'm sticking with pipe tobacco. Plus, I've liked PTE's (Pipe-Tobacco Extractions) a lot more than Cigar extractions (I couldn't think of anything clever for cigars that didn't sound terrible.
) out of all the NETs I've vaped. Cig extracts, ehh, good but not showing the true beauty of tobacco IMO, but when you get into that carefully crafted, well-tested pipe blend range....well, it seems like anything is possible.That said, I have not tried the Natural American Spirit which contains Perique.
I guess the closest I've tried is a couple of the French Cig offerings from NETCom, which I immensely enjoyed (was 50/50 on the fence about Blonde, which I liked better than Big Spirit but not quite as much as Brunes or Poilu- my inbound order has a 60ml bottle of
------------------------------
I guess I went off the beaten track a little, and ordered....um....a lot of things. Let me check the sheet. I just got most of the flavorings I'm going to be testing (Lab testing? Lordie, no. I can't afford to test 11 flavorings, but I plan on using them in very low amounts. Looks like WL and OSDIY have the widest range of natural, attested-to-be diketone-free, clear flavorings.
I got a few (well, several) of a certain company's from OSDIY (Lorann's) and noticed the obvious color inclusion. I have not cracked the seals on the dram bottles yet, but the Flavor West flavorings are much more appealing for DIY use (Hey, you know you want to "Hybridbacco while you Hybridbacco") just due to the fact they're entirely clear. Well, except for one of the vanillas I suspect may have a DA/AP substitute. Going to test the flavor and see if I detect that flavor (I have tested at least a few DA/AP juices and know precisely what a large amount in an e-juice [large enough for me to notice] feels like.) ...well, more like a texture of slippery-ness and an almost weird feeling that whatever you're vaping is "slippy" and not "smooth".
I have experienced this from 3-4 companies. Each time, it was the exact same texture, different flavor. Those bottles were shelved due to their nastiness....never imagined that they were in, fact, really nasty for my lungs.
If anything else, the whole testing of e-liquids thing and pushing mfg's to move towards safer compounds in general may very well cause a split- flavoring companies offering separate flavorings specifically geared towards vaping.
Anyone who has ever looked at an MSDS for any of the things we consume knows, as (I think it was rolygate) was said, that there is, "No [100%] safe vaping", (could be off but I know it was along those lines) yet we know that we are no longer burning tobacco and creating who knows what that cause the 99% of the cancer outside of the 1% actually killed by the carcinogen produced by burning nicotine itself (incidentally, the same compound that caused numerous chimney sweeps to develop cancer). The "99%" in this statistic is really an unknown. We don't know specifically what factor is going to kill people, but we know it has a significant risk of causing disease, if not death.
Smoked tobacco, or 'Analogs' in the case of cigarettes, is the main danger being prevented by vaping and all of the benefits provided by avoiding combustion of nicotine, burnt plant matter, and (possible) additives, discounting any discussion of Po-210 or Pb-210 (radioactive isotopes of polonium and lead, respectively) and how/whether it reaches the end-user (because I don't think Dr. F is planning on testing for that...) or whether it can even hypothetically be considered a possible contaminant in "pure"-in our case, diluted down for safety-nicotine.
No doubt this is something that needs addressed, just elsewhere on the forum (and really, in the vaping community in general- unless it's been confirmed this doesn't happen) to keep things on track here. However, since we are vaping NETs, I believe it's more relevant.
I also do not have the requisite knowledge to tell you whether it's even possible. If I spent a day researching just that, I might have a better idea; don't have the time right now, so my posts may be a bit more jumbled than usual. I'll try to break the topics into chunks.
-------------------------------
Anyhow,
I'm looking at Trout Stream or both of the Sherlock Holmes Pipe Club offerings.
You folks know what I've liked so far; any suggestions? Anything wild? I might just pick up a new one with few reviews and just figure it out on my own.
It's like shopping in a candy store when you look for flavorings and tobaccos. Jeez. Why didn't I start doing this sooner? I did the math; dram bottles will flavor a huge amount of juice and save you that much minus cost of adjuncts over and over. See you guys on that thread; I think I subbed to it, but if not just PM me if you don't see me over that way in the near future and I'll meander on over.
I think it was called "DIY Natural Tobacco Extraction" or something to that effect.
(Turns out it's an entire subforum created by Rolygate, if I'm not mistaken. But hey, I like being wrong; means I learned something!)
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I extracted some Lane RLP in my first batch of extractions. No one, including me, was impressed. Pretty blah.
English by RTE, available online at http://www.real-tobacco-extract.com
The Juice: "ENGLISH is pure a natural tobacco extracted flavor using a BRIGHT VIRGINIA whole leaf extract. It is available only in 70/30 PG/VG"
The Hardware: Mech with Atomic dripper, 1ohm micro coil of 28ga Kanthal, Koh Gen Do wick.
Ratings are from 1-5 depending on where a juice falls in an attributes spectrum. Only the last rating, "overall", is based on 5 being the best. (For sweetness 1 equals very dry and 5 equals very sweet. For tobacco impact 1 equals very mild tobacco and 5 equals very aggressive and/or complex.)
Sweetness: 2.5. Virginia tobacco has a high sugar content, which makes it fairly sweet without the addition of added flavors. This juice is less sweet than a flavored aromatic or Cavendish blend, but still contains a nice level of sweetness as expected from cured Virginia leaves. It's sort of a green, vegetative, type of sweet. Extremely pleasant and natural, never cloying.
Tobacco Impact: 4. English is a single varietal NET made purely from bright yellow Virginia leaves. Virginia has a fairly mild flavor, but when presented like this as a straight non-aromatic without added flavoring it gives a very pure, authentic tobacco experience. Virginia NETs have a leafy taste that provides a bite and mouth feel that I just love, and English has a pitch perfect level of that leafy bite. Some may equate it to a grassiness. Triple filtered at 2.7 microns, the level of extract in this recipe provides great flavor with just moderate gunking.
Vapability: 5. A Virginia NET like this is an anytime vape for me. It works for me at all times, and is also a flavor I really crave when wanting that leafy, sweet tobacco. English does an amazing job at maintaining all it's flavor, so I can enjoy it for hours, even days, on end.
Flavor Accuracy: 4.5. Tastes exactly as expected. I like how RTE names the specific tobaccos used in each juice, and offer a good amount of information on their site about their methods and philosophies. English seems like an odd choice as a name for this juice as it brings to mind the English blends many NET vapers are accustomed to, which is usually a non-aromatic pipe blend containing several tobacco varieties, but that's just a small quibble.
Overall: 4.5. I have 3 NETs from RTE and they are all well made, but this one stands out to me the most because of my personal preference of loving the flavor of Virginia tobacco. LTE uses high quality leaves and professional methods to produce an exceptional product. There is one glaring issue here though, and that's the price. My reviews are about the quality of the product and my opinions on the flavor, so I rarely talk price, but at $30 for 30ml these are priced much higher than other NETs of equal quality. That's a shame, because I know many NET aficionados who would dig these are saying 'no way' when they see the cost. I have seen some fantastic sales from them, and free shipping helps, but the regular price is just too expensive.
The Juice: "ENGLISH is pure a natural tobacco extracted flavor using a BRIGHT VIRGINIA whole leaf extract. It is available only in 70/30 PG/VG"
The Hardware: Mech with Atomic dripper, 1ohm micro coil of 28ga Kanthal, Koh Gen Do wick.
Ratings are from 1-5 depending on where a juice falls in an attributes spectrum. Only the last rating, "overall", is based on 5 being the best. (For sweetness 1 equals very dry and 5 equals very sweet. For tobacco impact 1 equals very mild tobacco and 5 equals very aggressive and/or complex.)
Sweetness: 2.5. Virginia tobacco has a high sugar content, which makes it fairly sweet without the addition of added flavors. This juice is less sweet than a flavored aromatic or Cavendish blend, but still contains a nice level of sweetness as expected from cured Virginia leaves. It's sort of a green, vegetative, type of sweet. Extremely pleasant and natural, never cloying.
Tobacco Impact: 4. English is a single varietal NET made purely from bright yellow Virginia leaves. Virginia has a fairly mild flavor, but when presented like this as a straight non-aromatic without added flavoring it gives a very pure, authentic tobacco experience. Virginia NETs have a leafy taste that provides a bite and mouth feel that I just love, and English has a pitch perfect level of that leafy bite. Some may equate it to a grassiness. Triple filtered at 2.7 microns, the level of extract in this recipe provides great flavor with just moderate gunking.
Vapability: 5. A Virginia NET like this is an anytime vape for me. It works for me at all times, and is also a flavor I really crave when wanting that leafy, sweet tobacco. English does an amazing job at maintaining all it's flavor, so I can enjoy it for hours, even days, on end.
Flavor Accuracy: 4.5. Tastes exactly as expected. I like how RTE names the specific tobaccos used in each juice, and offer a good amount of information on their site about their methods and philosophies. English seems like an odd choice as a name for this juice as it brings to mind the English blends many NET vapers are accustomed to, which is usually a non-aromatic pipe blend containing several tobacco varieties, but that's just a small quibble.
Overall: 4.5. I have 3 NETs from RTE and they are all well made, but this one stands out to me the most because of my personal preference of loving the flavor of Virginia tobacco. LTE uses high quality leaves and professional methods to produce an exceptional product. There is one glaring issue here though, and that's the price. My reviews are about the quality of the product and my opinions on the flavor, so I rarely talk price, but at $30 for 30ml these are priced much higher than other NETs of equal quality. That's a shame, because I know many NET aficionados who would dig these are saying 'no way' when they see the cost. I have seen some fantastic sales from them, and free shipping helps, but the regular price is just too expensive.
You folks know what I've liked so far; any suggestions? Anything wild? I might just pick up a new one with few reviews and just figure it out on my own.
You could try out some 4noggins or John Patton. I've heard great things about the tobacco blends. I haven't had a chance to try them myself.
Brobdingnagian, been awhile since you've posted, I'd suggest ordering something that tickles your fancy when browsing Pipe Tobacco's, that's pretty much how I buy mine, don't care if it's been done before. Don't give up on Cigar Tobacco's, just have more patience allowing them to bloom... it's easy when you have a mother-lode of extracts waiting to be mixed and vaped.
Right now I have three Cigar Macerations window steeping, 60 & 90 day cycle, that won't be vaped before April & May, allowing ~2 months for the filtered Extracts to age before mixing my vape juice.
My next experiment will be storing Extracts in the freezer til I exhaust those on hand, ~70-80mls worth, I'll update my results about the first week of July.
Right now I have three Cigar Macerations window steeping, 60 & 90 day cycle, that won't be vaped before April & May, allowing ~2 months for the filtered Extracts to age before mixing my vape juice.
My next experiment will be storing Extracts in the freezer til I exhaust those on hand, ~70-80mls worth, I'll update my results about the first week of July.
Johnni sent me some MM Great Dane pipe aromatic, absolutely Delicious Deliciousness.
A dessert pipe tobacco with subtle cherry and a front note of vanilla, warm and pleasant...very impressed with my first aromatic extract sample.
A dessert pipe tobacco with subtle cherry and a front note of vanilla, warm and pleasant...very impressed with my first aromatic extract sample.
Is leaving an extract to steep at least a few months or more, before mixing it, common with all the self extractors here? I ask as I just finished my first few cold extractions started about a month and a half ago.
I originally was going to "try" a small mix after two weeks
P.S. the Cornell & Diehl engine no. 99 tobacco smelled so good from the package I could have chewed it up and eaten it. The juice smells so good I now, I could drink it LOL!
Jerms, you did not steer me wrong at all. Finally got my Want2Vape package yesterday, I've been vaping away at the Paris and all I can think is "oh yes." I had been feeling a vague sense of ennui since I ran out of Walker's about a month ago, and now I've got that full, earthy/smoky experience again and all is good
Plus flavor-wise it really is reminiscent of a Gauloise - didn't think I would enjoy a "cigarette" vape so much. Still hope Ken gets back in the game soon, but this fits the bill and is going into the rotation. So thanks for a great recommendation (especially since your own taste runs in other directions).oh yeah, as for the gunk - I'm not sure it's that much less than Walker's. With the Paris I find myself cleaning the coil every 2-3 mls or so.
I leave my cigar extracts sitting for a month or so and the same after I mix it. As far as pipe tobaccos go, I'll vape a heavily cased and flavored juice after three days and take it from there. There are so many variables that you go with experience. I've got over eighty extracts and all have different temperaments. Some blossom three or four months later and some lose their flavor over that period of time.
Is leaving an extract to steep at least a few months or more, before mixing it, common with all the self extractors here? I ask as I just finished my first few cold extractions started about a month and a half ago.
I originally was going to "try" a small mix after two weeks
P.S. the Cornell & Diehl engine no. 99 tobacco smelled so good from the package I could have chewed it up and eaten it. The juice smells so good I now, I could drink it LOL!
Got myself a bell cap for the Kayfun. Volt RY4 on a 1.1 ohm cotton coil at 12.5W. Nom.
You nailed it Bill. I never tasted such a tobacco flavored RY4. Best ever.
You nailed it Bill. I never tasted such a tobacco flavored RY4. Best ever.
Although Diane doesn't specify Virginias in her Centurion blend this "grassiness" and bite it what attracted me to it. It provided a relief/recess from the heavier blends I'd been enjoying. She'd included it as a gift in my first order.
https://www.myvapejuice.com/product_info.php/cPath/93/products_id/248/osCsid/40cc7ba61dce9007727c72638d321c6b
Thanks for the review Jerms
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