Natural Tobaccos

[scarf-ace]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm kinda cross-eyed with exhaustion.

But after all that hoopla, this isn't really a NET as we on this thread know it, but rather a tobacco absolute juice?

IF that is the case then I am even more Pd off than I was before Truly, I feel taken for a fool.

 

[Nick Fantastic]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm kinda cross-eyed with exhaustion.

But after all that hoopla, this isn't really a NET as we on this thread know it, but rather a tobacco absolute juice?

IF that is the case then I am even more Pd off than I was before Truly, I feel taken for a fool.

That is correct scarf. I'm pretty disturbed by this whole situation as well. All three juices I got yesterday have the same cloudiness. I also looked at my two week old sample... Same thing. Not a good look! And saying that the "extract" is naturally cloudy does not make it acceptable. No juice should be lookin like this! I'm sorry. All four of the juices have a thick, dark ring of TA just sitting in suspension at the top. They are a total mess! Can post some pics if anyone wants to see. The biggest disappointment in all of this is that the juices are not true NET's. I'll be contacting Annette to discuss my displeasure.

 

[luceblueboy]

I think everything happened from a lack of correct definitions in language. VV custom ordered their tobacco flavor to their specifications rather than buying standard TA. It is also more than likely organic. As Mann pointed out in a much earlier post, technically TA is extracted. So technically, VV is telling the truth.

Technically their extract is unique to them making them different from other TA vendors. We just won't be able to vape and say "I can taste the Burley/Cavendish/Perique/other tobaccos!" We'll just say "it's a dirty, smoky flavor that's tobacco but compared to actual natural extracts, totally different. It's swisher sweets to a Padron 1926 80th Anniversary (one is $4.50 a pack, the other is $30 for one cigar). While many people love swisher sweets and call them "cigars," actual cigar aficionados think they're a bit trashy (I am not an aficionado or swisher hater, this is just what I've heard them say at cigar shops).

 

[billherbst]

I know this isn't quite on topic, but does anyone know what the difference is between TA and Tobacco Extract (Tobacco Extract - One Stop DIY Shop Store)?

The extract sounds like it's easier to work with ("do not try to use alcohol to dilute this one, it does dilute well with water then will mix well with your blends" ) and probably closer to the flavor most DIY tobacco juice makers would be looking for ("has more of a "cigarette" type flavor and less of the "grass" note" ) .

Just wondered if anyone here had any experience with the extract.

Yes, I have both. I started using them in DIY after vaping some Mom&Pop juices (10Forty, Tobacco Haze, RY4 and RY4v2, RYO, and RYO4). Here's what I have:

• 5ml bottle of Tobacco Absolute diluted 50% in PGA, purchased in Oct 2010 from EcigExpress, source manufacturer unknown
• 5ml bottle of Tobacco Absolute pure/undiluted, purchased in Sept 2011 from EcigExpress, made by Signature Flavors (TPA/TFA)
• 5ml bottle of Tobacco Extract purchased in Sept 2011 from EcigExpress, made by TPA/TFA
• 8ml vial of Tobacco Absolute Alcohol Blend (diluted TA with ethyl maltol and PGA), purchased in Sept 2012 from Wizard Labs, made by TPA/TFA

Most of us already know that Tobacco Absolute is made in Bulgaria from some unknown blend of indigenous Bulgarian tobaccos, using a proprietary and apparently secret process. The EcigExpress description of Tobacco Extract states: "This is a variation of Tobacco Absolute. It is an alcohol extraction process that uses a different method than the standard Tobacco Absolute. It is thick and viscous, but not quite as thick as the original tobacco absolute. Reviewers have noticed that the tobacco extract has more of a real cigarette type flavor and less of a grass note."

Tobacco Extract is water-soluble, so it will dissolve in PG or VG. Tobacco Absolute is not water-soluble, so it remains in suspension in PG/VG rather than dissolving. Thus the need to shake-shake-shake. The TA and TE I have from EcigExpress are both opaque deep brown-black liquids, with the TA having a greenish oiliness. Curiously, the TA in alcohol/ethyl maltol from TPA/TFA that I recently purchased via Wizard Labs is a very pale golden transparency (perhaps much more diluted?). They have no smell (other than the alcohol used to dilute TA). Both are super-super-concentrates that should be diluted and even then used very sparingly. Using too much is a sure-fire way to destroy the flavor and ruin your juice.

TA imparts a grassy, fresh leaf tobacco flavor that becomes ashy with higher mix percentages. TE imparts a much deeper tobacco flavor---more like a cured or toasted tobacco---that I'd describe as "gutsy." Personally, I prefer Tobacco Extract.

Perhaps we might consider creating a new category for TA and TE. This thread has trademarked the acronym "NET" for natural extractions of macerated tobacco. Bravo. Maybe we could adopt the term "RET" for Tobacco Absolute/Extract, substituting "real" for "natural" (since both TA and TE are, in fact, extracted from real tobacco). Whether or not that acronym sticks to the wall, I think we need some easy way to distinguish these two concentrates from synthetic flavorings concocted from chemicals in a flavor lab.

 

[VaporMizer]

Thanks billherbst, that pretty much covers it all! Most of the few references to TE that I've read in other threads made me think TE was somehow derived from TA, but the grassy part of the TA description didn't fit.....I think TE is probably what I am looking for.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Alright so my ry4v2 arrived from M&P. One thing I find weird about my taste test is, it smells like straight up caramel, but tasted like flowers. So how long should I let it steep before I can taste the caramel and the floral flavor subsides?

That is a TA base, so the floral or perfume like qualities may always be there to a certain degree. However, the flavors will blossom (forgive the pun) after awhile, though I can't say for sure how long. Give it a couple weeks to a month.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Unfortunately, relying on vendor's descriptions is not going to tell you what you wish to know. THe only advice I can give is to always check with a vendor first, unless it is widely understood which is which with what they offer. Here are a some examples of vendor's descriptions (see if you can tell just by reading which are which):

1)Pure Bulgarian tobacco extract from the Nicotiana Tabacum leaf, necessarily cut 50% with 190 proof grain vodka. The result is a bottle of thick vapor producing, rich tobacco flavored brown gold E Liquid. Great alone and ideal as a mixer. There you have it, Straight Up.

2)Oh how to describe this juice... To we vapers, the word poison has to be synonymous with cigarettes. Cigarettes are made of tobacco. This is a tobacco with a twist and unlike almost every other juice on this site: this one does not have any fruits, creams, or nuts. It is a straight up delicious tobacco blend. Depending how this one is received by all of you, more tobaccos may come in the future with this as the base.

3)If you are looking for that flavor that actually tastes like a commercial cigarette than this is it. You don't get the burn taste but it is very similar to commercial cigarettes

4)Great tobacco taste with a sweet something added (we're not telling!)

5)Bright Virginias, spicy small leaf Orientals and smoky Latakia tobaccos combine in the Doctor's version of the traditional English pipe blend. Dark, deep, robust and smoky, this blend is our love song to tobacco and tobacco loving vapers.

6)A super rare Acadian Tobacco blended with the finest flue-cured gold leaf tobaccos are the base in this maceration.


7)This is a house extracted Organic Tobacco that has extracts of Agave, Prune & Vanilla added to enhance the flavor.

Most of us can easily tell which ones are TA (or TE) and which ones are NETs as we define it. However, there is one on here that may seem one way that is actually the other. Without contacting the vendors, you'd be hard-pressed to distinguish with that one...oh, and on their website, there is not further info regarding their tobaccos outside of the individual descriptions. Most NET makers will articulate some type of tobacco strain if it is our kind of NET, but if it says "Bulgarian," then it is most likely TA. Rarely are any tobaccos on a site going to say, "made with tobacco absolute."

 

[VaporMizer]

Just a few thoughts on TA while it's still semi-on-topic:

I think Bulgarian tobacco is a type of tobacco in it's own right...it is an Oriental. Oriental and Turkish have been used interchangeably (though probably technically incorrect) forever by tobacco retailers.

Uncured Oriental tobaccos can be naturally very fragrant. I remember Oriental tobacco seeds being sold to grow as houseplants and the description said the plant smelled similar to Jasmine.

So it makes sense that if TA is really intended for perfume then it is probably extracted from uncured tobacco...that would explain the perfumey taste and the grassy taste.

 

[devlindchi]

That is a TA base, so the floral or perfume like qualities may always be there to a certain degree. However, the flavors will blossom (forgive the pun) after awhile, though I can't say for sure how long. Give it a couple weeks to a month.

Thanks .

 

[Mr.Mann]

Just a few thoughts on TA while it's still semi-on-topic:

I think Bulgarian tobacco is a type of tobacco in it's own right...it is an Oriental. Oriental and Turkish have been used interchangeably (though probably technically incorrect) forever by tobacco retailers.

Uncured Oriental tobaccos can be naturally very fragrant. I remember Oriental tobacco seeds being sold to grow as houseplants and the description said the plant smelled similar to Jasmine.

So it makes sense that if TA is really intended for perfume then it is probably extracted from uncured tobacco...that would explain the perfumey taste and the grassy taste.

Interesting! Thanks, VM.

 

[VaporMizer]

Interesting! Thanks, VM.

No problem...I seem to always have time for creating slapdash theories based on loosely related info! It's kinda like a hobby.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Oh yeah, on that list of descriptions, can anyone tell from the description whether 3 or 4 is the TA and which is the NET?

 

[gthompson]

I wouldn't have guessed either was a NET.

 

[scarf-ace]

Oh yeah, on that list of descriptions, can anyone tell from the description whether 3 or 4 is the TA and which is the NET?

3 is the NET and 4 is the TA?

If you were going to go through the trouble of making a NET you'd be proud to share every last detail about it. TA is just TA.

 

[VaporMizer]

Yeah...just from the description you can't even tell if any kind of real tobacco flavor is used....I'd guess 3 is TE or TA just based on the "commercial cigarette" part.
EDIT: although the "no burn taste" part makes me wonder...that's what TE or TA (not sure which yet) does seem to do for me.

EDIT2: Changing my mind because of the "no burn" thing...

 

[scarf-ace]

Hey international types (are there others besides me on this thread?): Vulcan Vape has started selling 12ml bottles of the Vapenstein E-liquids. If I didn't already have an order incoming from them (Alcazar, Kuba Kuba and Rygar) I'd buy 'em all up.

They also have Boba's and Gorilla Juice back in stock.

 

[Racehorse]

I think everything happened from a lack of correct definitions in language. VV custom ordered their tobacco flavor to their specifications rather than buying standard TA. It is also more than likely organic. As Mann pointed out in a much earlier post, technically TA is extracted. So technically, VV is telling the truth.

I think this is as close to truth as you can get. VV, as noted, does a great job with the genre of juices in their line, for which they have made a name for themselves, the Kona coffees, the delicate fruit and organic flavored juices. The Kona and one other juice have been my ADVs, so I can speak to this.

It looks to me like they wanted to expand into more of a tobacco type line for some of their customers who requested it. Everything fine up to here.

However, mixologist hasn't experimented enough with this, and perhaps her vendor hasn't properly educated her, and could be of help here-----and there seems to be a semantic issue and overall lack of understanding surrounding this foray into a new line. So, the big mistake here was that you don't put things out the door until they are ready, and you have your ducks in a row, and you have tested, tested, tested, and then you send it out in free samples to a few of your best customers with the understanding that these are TESTERS only, and you wait for feedback. Her assistant is admittedly not a tobacco person, actually hates the taste of tobacco, so no help there.

In other words, its a process. Not hurried. You put it out the door before all these things are done, and the end result is you are embarassed, which is always bad for business. That's really what happened here, IMHO. I don't think there is any lying going on. Just poor execution overall and across the board. From the description written on website (needs to be re-written), to the lack of testing, all the way to the decision to let it leave the building.

What's that famous line We shall sell no wine before it's time........

the problem is, once you let it out the door wrong, and people have paid real $$, they have a tendency to be upset, and you lose your goodwill with customers like this.

 

[gthompson]

This is their second scandal in recent memory too.

 

[Hulamoon]

Still confused but I seem to recall Mr. M said VV uses OAE (?) for a TE and so does HHV. So how is one a NET and one not? Apologies.....

 

[Mr.Mann]

3 is the NET and 4 is the TA?

If you were going to go through the trouble of making a NET you'd be proud to share every last detail about it. TA is just TA.

You are correct, Even though there is little info offered with 3, 4 is in fact TA.