Natural Tobaccos

[AnthonyB]

This is where the problem and controversy lies and I believe lobby groups in the US are attacking this notion that 'smokeless cigarettes' ie, e-cigarettes and e-liquids are a tobacco product. That is a big stretch given that most e-liquids are nothing more than nicotine, PG/VG and flavoring. Do naturally extracted tobacco e-liquids bridge the gap?

And despite all of this, is the FDA really going to, at some stage, regulate e-cigs and leave cigarettes freely available to the consumer?

In any event, Mr Mann's link to the FDA's correction on the Wall Street journal probably means that any 'doomsday' scenario won't be happening for a while.

"The FDA currently regulates cigarettes, cigarette tobacco, roll-your-own tobacco and smokeless tobacco. The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (TCA) permits the FDA to deem other “tobacco products” to be subject to the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act by regulation. The agency has announced its intent to issue a proposed rule deeming products meeting the definition of a “tobacco product” to be subject to FDA regulation."

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ays-todays-wall-st-journal-article-wrong.html

The wording is pretty slippery, especially upon reading the last two sentences.

....................................Anyway.

Vita Bella is peach colored? Every one I ever got was burgundy like.

 

[AnthonyB]

Nevermind the potential future bans - Phil Busardo saves the day and has all the solutions!

See the review of the Legal Vape 4000 at tasteyourjuice.com.

 

[gthompson]

Nicotine is a tobacco product.

 

[jstaubin]

It gets really confusing if you read the legal history of the FDA trying to control e cigs. Evidently, the courts say they have to be classified as "tobacco products", but legislation in place makes this impossible:

"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) classified electronic cigarettes as drug delivery devices and subject to regulation under the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) prior to importation to and sale in the United States. The classification was challenged in court, and overruled in January 2010 by Federal District Court Judge Richard J. Leon, citing that "the devices should be regulated as tobacco products rather than drug or medical products."[36] Judge Leon ordered the FDA to stop blocking the importation of electronic cigarettes from China and indicated that the devices should be regulated as tobacco products rather than drug or medical devices.[37]

In March 2010, a US Court of Appeal stayed the injunction pending an appeal, during which the FDA argued the right to regulate electronic cigarettes based on their previous ability to regulate nicotine replacement therapies such as nicotine gum or patches. Further, the agency argued that tobacco legislation enacted the previous year "expressly excludes from the definition of 'tobacco product' any article that is a drug, device or combination product under the FDCA, and provides that such articles shall be subject to regulation under the pre-existing FDCA provisions."[38] On 7 December 2010, the appeals court ruled against the FDA in a 3–0 unanimous decision, ruling the FDA can only regulate electronic cigarettes as tobacco products, and thus cannot block their import.[39] The judges ruled that such devices would only be subject to drug legislation if they are marketed for therapeutic use – E-cigarette manufacturers had successfully proven that their products were targeted at smokers and not at those seeking to quit. The District of Columbia Circuit appeals court declined to review the decision blocking the products from FDA regulation as medical devices on 24 January 2011".

 

[gthompson]

We much prefer them classified as a "tobacco product" than a "drug delivery device". Unless you prefer having to get a prescription for your juice.

 

[rdsok]

Nicotine is a tobacco product.

Yes it is the main source but not the only one...

Having said that, with the number of ppm that a tobacco plant is capable of producing ( ie 20,000 - 40,000 ppm according to the sources I read ) compared to the highest ppm I saw listed in other natural sources of only .4 ppm... tobacco is the only inexpensive source. I have also seen pages describing ( that I can't understand since I have no chemistry experience beyond high school )... that it can also be synthesized but at what cost vs the other alternate natural sources I can't say since I didn't find any comparisons.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Nicotine is a tobacco product.

Yes, well, but....

Nicotine on its own, a stimulant, is an extract-able alkaloid from tobacco, tomato, potato, aubergines, etc. (though it is normally extracted, due to highest levels, from tobacco). Just as caffeine on its own, a stimulant, is an extract-able alkaloid from coffee beans, guarana, yerba maté, cacao beans, various tea leaves, etc. (though, caffeine can be extracted from any of those products, it is usually extracted out of coffee beans). My point is that save for varying quantities of these alkaloids in various products, caffeine and nicotine are not merely a tobacco or coffee bean product, they are alkaloids found in various hosts in nature.

Interestingly enough, nicotine and caffeine are constituents of some varieties of tea.

http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/documentStore/a/u/a/aua24e00/Saua24e00.pdf

Determination of the Nicotine Content of Various Edible Nightshades (Solanaceae) and Their Products and Estimation of the Associated Dietary Nicotine Intake - Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (ACS Publications)

 

[gthompson]

Okay fine, the nicotine found in e-liquids is a tobacco product.

 

[Mr.Mann]

We much prefer them classified as a "tobacco product" than a "drug delivery device". Unless you prefer having to get a prescription for your juice.

I prefer to think of nicotine as a supplement.

In actual tobacco related news (LOL), I find Big Spirit to be, while not the most flavorful liquid, a perfect easy going tobacco vape that doesn't require the fickle nature of my mood to be vaped. Solid N-E-T from NET.com.

 

[rdsok]

We much prefer them classified as a "tobacco product" than a "drug delivery device". Unless you prefer having to get a prescription for your juice.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or state things that are contrary to what you are saying ... you are just bringing up great points of which to discuss.

I'd just rather them not classify it ( nic ) as anything. I don't feel that the government needs to always control or classify everything out there, which is of course a lot of the source of this controversy. There are many chemicals ( trying to stay away from the word drug but I will use those as examples none the less ) that do need stricter controls placed on them... ......, morphine and too many others are examples and if not controlled in some manner would leave us with a lot of addicts to contend with. Nicotine itself only becomes an issue when used in high enough doses that it becomes dangerous... as do many other chemicals.... Where nicotine differs from the other chemicals I mentioned is that it isn't considered "recreational" and doesn't lend itself to that type of addiction like the others. I believe that it does need to have warnings placed on it's use if for no other reason than "common sense" isn't so common... but I don't believe it should be in any sort of controlled substance list of any kind.

In fact it is my belief, and I think many others, that the only reason that the subject is being brought up isn't a health related one ( directly ) but one based on the big tobacco companies profit levels are at risk. I think that our representatives and the FDA officials are looking for any reason they can concoct to force a restriction on it only to protect those profits.... they won't admit it, but I do believe that is the driving force for all of this and it has no real serious medical basis to base it on.

 

[gthompson]

You're absolutely right. Like every other vaper, I'd rather them just leave it the f alone. I'm not arguing that at all, I'm just saying, if they just HAVE to, one of them is better than the other.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Okay fine, the nicotine found in e-liquids is a tobacco product.

Sure, but "the nicotine" is only nicotine, and it is the same nicotine found in other forms in nature. Nicotine is not specific to tobacco.

However, I think what may become an issue for us here, and is very much on-topic in this thread, is something specific to tobacco, hence the name, tobacco specific nitrosamines (TSNAs). This is where the rubber meets the road for NETs and WTA (though, the latter can be discussed in its own forum). Save for the two or three NET vendors that actually test for TSNAs in their NETs, I think this could be a larger issue and one that could very much prove to be a problem for us. It has been discussed a little bit in here, but the fact remains that this is, no dancing around it, an issue that we should consider, and it is very much on topic.

You're absolutely right. Like every other vaper, I'd rather them just leave it the f alone. I'm not arguing that at all, I'm just saying, if they just HAVE to, one of them is better than the other.

I agree.

 

[UnclePsyko]

My concern mostly lies with where NET's will end up in the equation after al is said and done. Would our beloved family of NETs end up with stronger regulations being it could in fact fall under Tobacco Product being it's essence is derived from tobacco and not necessarily just a flavored concoction?

edit... MrMann beat me to it...

 

[flowerpots]

There are many chemicals ( trying to stay away from the word drug but I will use those as examples none the less ) that do need stricter controls placed on them... ......, morphine and too many others are examples and if not controlled in some manner would leave us with a lot of addicts to contend with. Nicotine itself only becomes an issue when used in high enough doses that it becomes dangerous... as do many other chemicals.... Where nicotine differs from the other chemicals I mentioned is that it isn't considered "recreational" and doesn't lend itself to that type of addiction like the others. I believe that it does need to have warnings placed on it's use if for no other reason than "common sense" isn't so common... but I don't believe it should be in any sort of controlled substance list of any kind.

I'm wanting to ask you something about this portion of your post...I'm more or less playing devil's advocate here, but this question also stems from my concerns with nicotine addiction and how that should be handled overall. I think the potential for nicotine "abuse" and "recreational" use is enhanced by the fact that it is now deliverable via another means other than smoking. I don't have statistics to back up this theory, it's just a passing thought in my thinking process about this subject, but one that I continually come back to. You mentioned morphine and while I imagine it may be more of a concern in the areas of abuse and addiction potential, I know I grew up hearing (whether it's true or not, I don't know - I read different studies with different outcomes) that quitting smoking is more difficult than quitting (censored) I don't doubt that the other chemicals in cigarettes (I've read 4,000 and 7,000, so not sure which one of those is true) cause most of that addiction potential. But, if we are going with recreational use a point, I see the potential for that with vaping nicotine, especially kids. I'm not a part of the Nanny State, or would like to think I am not lol But, I do think as much as personal responsibility is a factor, so is protecting minors, but not to the point that adults will continue to die from smoking because nicotine is so heavily regulated. So, my question is, after all of this, why do you think nicotine in the form of vaping is not a recreational concern (and abuse concern with people remaining on nicotine and minors being introduced to it)?

 

[Mr.Mann]

My concern mostly lies with where NET's will end up in the equation after al is said and done. Would our beloved family of NETs end up with stronger regulations being it could in fact fall under Tobacco Product being it's essence is derived from tobacco and not necessarily just a flavored concoction?

Yes, and in terms of what GT was saying, this (NET) is specifically a tobacco product, then it will likely fall under, well, tobacco. You can't get tobacco flavor from anywhere else but tobacco. I still think this wouldn't be an issue if vendors could/would test batches to show their are no carcinogens remaining in the process, but that likely won't happen as their are likely TSNAs is most soaks (not all NETs are simple soaks). I guess then we could always argue that carcinogens are everywhere as well and don't always come with a warning. Square one.

 

[flowerpots]

I guess then we could always argue that carcinogens are everywhere as well and don't always come with a warning. Square one.

That's such an excellent point, Mann. The FDA would want to regulate this, but who cares about our food supply.

 

[UnclePsyko]

Yes, and in terms of what GT was saying, this (NET)is specifically a tobacco product, then it will likely fall under, well, tobacco. You can't get tobacco flavor from anywhere else but tobacco. I still think this wouldn't be an issue if vendors could/would test batches to show their is no carcinogens remaining in the process, but that likely won't happen as their is likely is most soaks. I guess then we could always argue that carcinogens are everywhere as well and don't always come with a warning. Square one.

This is true... Of course the concern is that The Untouchables (FDA) is never satisfied once it sets it's sights on a "Cause". Cigs are now off the internet market, yet other tobacco products can still be readily shipped. It seems they pick their battles and just run with it... now we seem to be in the cross-hairs, and by that I mean the vaping community. They just can't seem to let it go after the first few runs in court.

 

[Mr.Mann]

So, my question is, after all of this, why do you think nicotine in the form of vaping is not a recreational concern (and abuse concern with people remaining on nicotine and minors being introduced to it)?

FP, that's a tough one, and without speculating, I sure can't argue one way or another with respect to minors (though it is a good thing to at least think about). Frankly, I think minors are all too often used as convenient excuses to demonize the evolution of many things: "How will I explain this to my kids." That is so tired and played out.

 

[Mr.Mann]

My concern mostly lies with where NET's will end up in the equation after al is said and done. Would our beloved family of NETs end up with stronger regulations being it could in fact fall under Tobacco Product being it's essence is derived from tobacco and not necessarily just a flavored concoction?

edit... MrMann beat me to it...

As much as I hate to type this, you can take the nicotine out of eliquid, but you can't take the tobacco out of NET. NETs are tobacco products. Man, I hope the community at large doesn't get all with us and our vendors. LOL

 

[rdsok]

First... I actually listed two chemicals ( drugs )... the first was censored and I suspect it's the same word you had censored... sounds ( and is spelled like ) the feminine word for "hero"... I have no problem with following the ECF censorship rules etc ( after all it is "their house" and all of that )... it's just funny at times what gets censored

So, my question is, after all of this, why do you think nicotine in the form of vaping is not a recreational concern (and abuse concern with people remaining on nicotine and minors being introduced to it)?

As Mr.Mann mentioned... Nicotine is a stimulant similar to caffeine but it really isn't recreational in my own opinion although many do find it addictive... it isn't cancerous, it doesn't promote bad or dangerous behavior ( like drugs and alcohol for instance )... the only real downside is when it is used in higher doses and then it becomes poisonous but so do other required supplements such as some vitamins or minerals ( and I'm not implying nicotine is a required substance such as the vitamins or minerals are ) as a few examples.

I think, as Mr.Mann has pointed out... the issue with NET's and WTA is more to the point and has a possibility for concern than does nicotine. The real question that has any merit is ... are the TSNAs at levels that are a cause for concern or not? It is my own belief that they are not even though I have nothing factual to base it on... I believe that benefit of not burning tobacco vs vaping a NET or WTA brings the threat of cancer down to a level that it isn't a concern at the levels we are vaping, I only wish we had evidence to support my own belief.