Natural Tobaccos

[boomerdude]

You know folks, there always seems to be a way around things. When I smoked cigarettes, first they started with taxes, now a pack of cigarettes in my state is around $10.00. I went to roll your own. A pound of good rolling TB was $15.00. Then they lowered the boom on that so now a pound is $45.00. The big vendors like RYO just started labeling the TB "pipe tobacco" which isn't as heavily taxed. and you can get 5 lbs. for $60.

Those with a little ingenuity will always find a way.

Get your nic and freeze it. You'll be good for at least 3 yrs. You might be forced into DIY but once you get the hang of it you'll be good to go.

 

[Bob Chill]

Some really good points here. I can live without nets but it would be rough sailing living without ejuice in its current form entirely.

Part of me wants to believe that the October fda date will come and pass with little change for now. They themselves say they have little scientific knowledge of what ejuice is all about. Without that knowledge it may be tough to unanimously pass regulations that bisect and classify the entire ecig world with the swipe of a pen. Not saying they can't or won't. But I'm not sure they have sufficient data to come to drilled down conclusions about everything.

 

[rdsok]

Some really good points here. I can live without nets but it would be rough sailing living without ejuice in its current form entirely.

Now I'm one that the issue isn't so much with ejuices as they are now... or nicotine itself. I'm going to revisit my need of nicotine and again see if bumping up "helps" with my addiction or not, my previous tests in this area indicated that it didn't matter in my own case. I know that many others out there, that isn't the case at all and it is mostly about the nic level, so my concerns are more for those people and what effect regulations and taxation will do to them.

My own "addiction"... seems to be more about flavor with NETs being the only flavor that has satisfied my needs, how thick the vapor feels on my throat and lungs and the "pacifier" like effect of smoking/vaping. In the past, I've vaped up to 18mg without it seeming to help my need to vape... currently I vape at 5-6mg but I think I can go down from that if I'd just try it. I did pick up some 8mg from N-E-T.com just to try bumping up again but I haven't tested it again as of yet.

 

[Bob Chill]

I want and need the nic. I've only been nicotine free for 1 out of the last 15 years (6 out of the last 30). Didn't work well for me. I used nrts (lozenges) for several years. I wasn't totally smoke free during those years but I didn't smoke more than one day a week. I was no way to live though. My mind hated it but my willpower was strong enough not to smoke most days.

Lozenges and gum etc have some serious drawbacks. It's hard to accurately control nic delivery. I would get too much too often. The peak hits a good bit after the lozenge is dissolved. I realized I had to time myself between them or I would get that uneasy feeling. They burned up my stomach too. I already have some acid problems and those things didn't help one bit.

I find it simple to control nic with vaping. Much more predictable and stable. I mostly use 6-12. I can use 6 all night and fall asleep immediately when I feel the need to. 12 can cause some problems with getting to sleep if I'm vaping a particularly tasty juice that I can't put down. I've grown out of overdoing at night but once in a while...lol

18 is reserved for stealth and mornings. I'll use 18 juice until I "feel right" then I put it down and screw on 12 when I feel the urge later on. Bodies don't lie. I like that about vaping. It couldn't be easier to stay in the sweet spot once you figure out what your body is telling you. Cigs are way to full of high highs and low lows. Good riddance there. NRTs are just plain awful. I'm not sure how they are even considered effective.

I'm not a heavy nic person either. I probably vape 3mls a day most of the time with the majority of that time using 6-12. Great flavored juice is more addicting irt vape time than nicotine in my personal experience. Once you figure out your sweet spot it's quite enjoyable with few if any side affects.

I've definitely been addicted to nicotine for 30 years but since I became comfortable with vape delivery it was really easy to recognize that cigarette addiction goes far above and beyond nicotine addiction. I've gone 8+ hours without vaping and yes, I feel the tug but it is NOTHING like when I would go without a cig for 8+ hours. I suppose I could learn to live with zero nic but I honestly have no desire. It would have to be by force.

 

[UnclePsyko]

Now I'm one that the issue isn't so much with ejuices as they are now... or nicotine itself. I'm going to revisit my need of nicotine and again see if bumping up "helps" with my addiction or not, my previous tests in this area indicated that it didn't matter in my own case.

I know that many others out there, that isn't the case at all and it is mostly about the nic level, so my concerns are more for those people and what effect regulations and taxation will do to them. My own "addiction"... seems to be more about flavor with NETs being the only flavor that has satisfied my needs, how thick the vapor feels on my throat and lungs and the "pacifier" like effect of smoking/vaping. In the past, I've vaped up to 18mg without it seeming to help my need to vape... currently I vape at 5-6mg but I think I can go down from that if I'd just try it. I did pick up some 8mg from N-E-T.com just to try bumping up again but I haven't tested it again as of yet.

If the level of nicotine turns out to be a non-issue among vapers, but realistic alternatives would suffice, here is when DIY NET's would take hold. What is the average nic percentage of an extract? I've seen around 3-5mg/ml? Is this of the extraction as a flavoring or after mixing in a zero nic base?

 

[gthompson]

I'd love for someone to test a raw extract for nic content. I'm not sure which vendors have the ability to do that. All I've ever heard was guesses, anywhere from 2-5 mg. I know the process of extracting tobacco flavor and extracting nicotine are very different. My guess would be towards the lower end of those guesses.

 

[UnclePsyko]

Yeah, I would love to know as well. I've seen the estimates, educated guesses and all but I'm a bit in the dark what the numbers are in a mixed and vape ready solution. If unflavored nic bases become unobtainable at the consumer level for a reasonable cost, this could get ugly.

 

[rdsok]

You know folks, there always seems to be a way around things. ... Those with a little ingenuity will always find a way.

Get your nic and freeze it. You'll be good for at least 3 yrs. You might be forced into DIY but once you get the hang of it you'll be good to go.

Hmm.. I didn't realize when I first read this, that my brain would stew on it until the following popped into mind...

TA ( tobacco absolute ) has been around for a really long time in the perfume industry as a scent additive ( thanks to Mr.Mann or someone else here in the thread for having brought it up long ago )... What popped into mind was that the reverse may also be used by the current NET vendors that wanted to still sell their extracts but instead of for vaping, they would need to market them as a scent additive... granted for what would be considered a lighter scent as apposed to a stronger one like TA.

 

[gthompson]

HHV sends out their liquids to foreign customers labeled "Aroma Oils".

 

[Mr.Mann]

I'd love for someone to test a raw extract for nic content. I'm not sure which vendors have the ability to do that. All I've ever heard was guesses, anywhere from 2-5 mg. I know the process of extracting tobacco flavor and extracting nicotine are very different. My guess would be towards the lower end of those guesses.

One legit way (meaning the way that could be deemed truly accurate and precise) is through GC/MS, and while I know one or two vendors that do this (they run the test themselves), the fact remains, GC/MS testing (through independent labs) generally runs about a grand per test. Would you all be willing to pay a premium on your NETs so that the vendors would be able to make these tests? That's the only way it would happen (and it would need to be done per batch). I know some vendors that don't do it, could do it if they were willing to pay (I KNOW, ahem, some of them have the money), but it's more a matter of will. Generally, from what I know, a "batch" can lend itself to a weeks worth of sales, so it's not like a batch only lasts for a few mL.

Oh, and the estimates I've seen is between 1-3 mL.

HHV sends out their liquids to foreign customers labeled "Aroma Oils".

Vendors that do this are playing with fire, and I don't mean Dragon's Fire.

 

[AnthonyB]

GT, but if nicotine already falls within the definition then the FDA wouldn't the FDA have already taken measures? In Australia, the sale to the public of e-cigs and e-liquid is not banned. We can sell it all freely with one very big caveat - we cannot sell nicotine products, at least insofar as e-cigs go. Look on any Australian e-cig site and they will have e-juice but with zero nicotine.

This is not the case in the US, but if nicotine was already deemed a tobacco product then surely selling nicotine based liquids would have already been made illegal or the FDA could make the axe fall at any time?

Nicotine is a tobacco product.

 

[gthompson]

Oh, and the estimates I've seen is between 1-3 mL.

That sounds more reasonable to me.

And no, I don't want to PAY for a nic test! I'm just curious.

 

[AnthonyB]

jstubin, I remember this court case. There was a 'doomsday' fear back in 2010 and after this case with the subsequent appellant court supporting the earlier decision, the e-cig community took one big sigh of relief and the fears of e-cigs being banned subsided for a while. It's surprising to see that the threat is back and the FDA is still trying to find inroads to pulling e-cigs into their net of control.

It gets really confusing if you read the legal history of the FDA trying to control e cigs. Evidently, the courts say they have to be classified as "tobacco products", but legislation in place makes this impossible:

"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) classified electronic cigarettes as drug delivery devices and subject to regulation under the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) prior to importation to and sale in the United States. The classification was challenged in court, and overruled in January 2010 by Federal District Court Judge Richard J. Leon, citing that "the devices should be regulated as tobacco products rather than drug or medical products."[36] Judge Leon ordered the FDA to stop blocking the importation of electronic cigarettes from China and indicated that the devices should be regulated as tobacco products rather than drug or medical devices.[37]

In March 2010, a US Court of Appeal stayed the injunction pending an appeal, during which the FDA argued the right to regulate electronic cigarettes based on their previous ability to regulate nicotine replacement therapies such as nicotine gum or patches. Further, the agency argued that tobacco legislation enacted the previous year "expressly excludes from the definition of 'tobacco product' any article that is a drug, device or combination product under the FDCA, and provides that such articles shall be subject to regulation under the pre-existing FDCA provisions."[38] On 7 December 2010, the appeals court ruled against the FDA in a 3–0 unanimous decision, ruling the FDA can only regulate electronic cigarettes as tobacco products, and thus cannot block their import.[39] The judges ruled that such devices would only be subject to drug legislation if they are marketed for therapeutic use – E-cigarette manufacturers had successfully proven that their products were targeted at smokers and not at those seeking to quit. The District of Columbia Circuit appeals court declined to review the decision blocking the products from FDA regulation as medical devices on 24 January 2011".

 

[Bronze]

Okay fine, the nicotine found in e-liquids is a tobacco product.

Get it right, dammit!

 

[Bronze]

You guys are too serious for a Sunday.

 

[Mr.Mann]

That sounds more reasonable to me.

And no, I don't want to PAY for a nic test! I'm just curious.

Too funny!

But what if that meant it would be the difference between them being shut down or staying open--testing shows a certain level of professionalism if anything. It's a difficult question to grapple with though because of the cost. I couldn't care less about the nicotine content in the extracts, but I would like to know that vendors care enough to seek out this info on their own, at least in regards to TSNAs. Like I alluded to, some smaller vendors that don't even have the money to get a vape store, let alone buy a new car from their eliqud business are exempt in my book, but those that make a killing and have not pursued ONE test on ONE batch, I personally feel are being careless, if not willfully negligent.

 

[rdsok]

jstubin, I remember this court case. There was a 'doomsday' fear back in 2010 and after this case with the subsequent appellant court supporting the earlier decision, the e-cig community took one big sigh of relief and the fears of e-cigs being banned subsided for a while. It's surprising to see that the threat is back and the FDA is still trying to find inroads to pulling e-cigs into their net of control.

Actually... the practice is common for a representative or other entity ( business or special interest group ) to try other tactics to get a bill or law passed that gets them the result they were after in the first submission that may have failed to pass.

 

[AnthonyB]

The real issue here, and the problem, as I see it, is not one of administration of e-cigs as either a tobacco or drug to be regulated. It is one of commerciality in your country. If the heads and hearts of the law makers in the US is in the right place they will actively seek to conduct experiments to determine the trade off between the health benefits and risks associated with e-cigs and make decisions involving its regulation accordingly. In the end, if they do that, they will realise that more people will die from the regulation of the e-cig market than will be saved. If their impetus is money ie, the transfer of the industry from the public and small business, to big tobacco and big pharmacy, then it won't matter what common sense and reason and formal study about e-cigs reveals, or what is in the best interests of the health of its citizens.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or state things that are contrary to what you are saying ... you are just bringing up great points of which to discuss.

I'd just rather them not classify it ( nic ) as anything. I don't feel that the government needs to always control or classify everything out there, which is of course a lot of the source of this controversy. There are many chemicals ( trying to stay away from the word drug but I will use those as examples none the less ) that do need stricter controls placed on them... ......, morphine and too many others are examples and if not controlled in some manner would leave us with a lot of addicts to contend with. Nicotine itself only becomes an issue when used in high enough doses that it becomes dangerous... as do many other chemicals.... Where nicotine differs from the other chemicals I mentioned is that it isn't considered "recreational" and doesn't lend itself to that type of addiction like the others. I believe that it does need to have warnings placed on it's use if for no other reason than "common sense" isn't so common... but I don't believe it should be in any sort of controlled substance list of any kind.

In fact it is my belief, and I think many others, that the only reason that the subject is being brought up isn't a health related one ( directly ) but one based on the big tobacco companies profit levels are at risk. I think that our representatives and the FDA officials are looking for any reason they can concoct to force a restriction on it only to protect those profits.... they won't admit it, but I do believe that is the driving force for all of this and it has no real serious medical basis to base it on.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Actually... the practice is common for a representative or other entity ( business or special interest group ) to try other tactics to get a bill or law passed that gets them the result they were after in the first submission that may have failed to pass.

I personally feel (no evidence though) that this is more backed by BP than BT. BT can/would/have just adapt(ed) and acquire(ed), but BP is the one that is seeing more people opt for vaping over their, sometimes dangerous, alternatives and cessation devices or NRTs.

 

[UnclePsyko]

Ok... my curiosity of how this would affect NETs and such have been satisfied. I'm ready to get back on track with the thread and leave this subject to the other dozen threads discussing the topic. Thanks for all the info... Still the best thread on the site!
Ordering Coventry and Black Cavendish now.