New Atomizer Prototype

[Ashhead]

I have a friend who bends glass for neon signs, if someone knew what they wanted and could get me ledgable drawings I would see what I could do. I think the Electrodes could be the ticket, they are glass cylinders with two wires in them, sealed at one end in glass.
He can attach tubes. Commonly he attaches 1/8" tubes to blow the glass. THe possibilities are endless. I see a glass E-.... as an easy build... Then we're in trouble with the man...

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

I have a friend who bends glass for neon signs, if someone knew what they wanted and could get me ledgable drawings I would see what I could do. I think the Electrodes could be the ticket, they are glass cylinders with two wires in them, sealed at one end in glass.
He can attach tubes. Commonly he attaches 1/8" tubes to blow the glass. THe possibilities are endless. I see a glass E-.... as an easy build... Then we're in trouble with the man...

Wow, that's awesome. Would he be able to insert our Nichrome coils inside? Does he ever weld filaments (although welding is probably not as necessary if it's doing to be enclosed in glass.. I guess oxidation should not be an issue)?

 

[Ashhead]

I doubt he would be the ine to weld the filaments. If you can get me a few of them he could put them in a small glasss tube with the tails hanging iut the end. This would be in essence the same as his electrodes but with the filament instead of his electrode materials. Someone with more knowledge than me should look at a standard neon electrode as they get very hot (90000 volts to burn in the neon) and withstand being run hot outside in all weather conditions. If the smallest of them are suitable for our applications, we may not need to re-invent the wheel here.

 

[Bubo]

Wow... As AshHead said - we ARE trying to reinvent the wheel - neon work with electrodes at 9000 degrees? What we are doing is child's play!

Only difference that I can see is scale..

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

I still want to build that spot-welder so maybe in the near future I could build some coils and solder them to leads, ready to be encased in glass That would be awesome if your friend was up for it. But one issue is the metal going through the glass. Glassblowers often use special filaments when making bulbs, because they need to use a metal that expands at the same rate when the glass is heated.

 

[Jason365]

Wow... As AshHead said - we ARE trying to reinvent the wheel - neon work with electrodes at 9000 degrees? What we are doing is child's play!

Only difference that I can see is scale..

Damn Right!

 

[Scubabatdan]

Wow... As AshHead said - we ARE trying to reinvent the wheel - neon work with electrodes at 9000 degrees? What we are doing is child's play!

Only difference that I can see is scale..

Ummmm thats 9000 volts (not degrees) and BTW they operate at 30ma that wouldnt even make the coil hot. Oh and they go all the way up to 15,000 volts but still at a max of 60ma.
Dan

 

[Ashhead]

Ummmm thats 9000 volts (not degrees) and BTW they operate at 30ma that wouldnt even make the coil hot. Oh and they go all the way up to 15,000 volts but still at a max of 60ma.
Dan

The Neon tubes are "burned in" using 90,000 volts, this gets the mercury the bender puts in the tube to vaporize and is carried on the current and neon gas. During this process you can watch the progress of the murcury through the tube.

I am not sure what metal is used in the electrode end, but for a few dollars (which I have) I could pick up a few electrodes and send them to one of you to examine and run some tests on. THey come in a few stock sizes. I believe the smallest to be 6mm and largest to be 18mm. Not sure if that is ID or OD.

If they test out as useable/modifyably we may have a source for atomizer bodies that are USA made and readily available

 

[Ashhead]

PS, Dan is correct about the neon transformers being 30 and 60 ma, but I wasn't ftying to run a atomizer off a neon transformer. I think the electrodes hold some amount of hope to become a new atomizer base for our applications. we may find we need more power, or we may find the theory is sound but the application must be modified i.e. try melting electrode tails into one end of a short glass tube. that may provide us with a starting point. Might find this works well, might find closing both ends works better...

 

[Bubo]

Whoops.. So much for my Evelin Wood speed reading....
::Going back to hide in the corner!::

 

[jxmiller]

Hmm I know a glass blower, quite good too.

I thought I saw it somewhere before but what about dipping the coil in glass as to only cover it with a thin layer?

Is there a certain thickness it would need to be? I mean would the metal expand and break the glass?

 

[Scubabatdan]

I just shot this off to be spec'd for a price and see if they could do some samples. This would be a backup if they can not make a custom mold.

Dan

 

[Ashhead]

THe neon electrodes are cylinders that are sealed with molten glass. these units get waaaay to hot to touch, the electrodes glow red inside when they are burnt in. Because they are using extremely high voltage in the burnin process, I would assume the metal and glass have similar expansion. When I have replaced broken neon, the "tail' ends were always intact, breaks were always elsewhere. I simply do not have the electrical knowledge to determine if these electrodes are suitable for this application. I can get the electrodes, have them modified if needed, but the rest is outside my scope.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

Hmm I know a glass blower, quite good too.

I thought I saw it somewhere before but what about dipping the coil in glass as to only cover it with a thin layer?

Is there a certain thickness it would need to be? I mean would the metal expand and break the glass?

I just responded to this in your other thread, so I'll just copy my response: I highly doubt that is feasible, as the Nichrome and glass expand at different rates in response to heat. One or the other would likely shatter.

THe neon electrodes are cylinders that are sealed with molten glass. these units get waaaay to hot to touch, the electrodes glow red inside when they are burnt in. Because they are using extremely high voltage in the burnin process, I would assume the metal and glass have similar expansion. When I have replaced broken neon, the "tail' ends were always intact, breaks were always elsewhere. I simply do not have the electrical knowledge to determine if these electrodes are suitable for this application. I can get the electrodes, have them modified if needed, but the rest is outside my scope.

Ah, I see. I was just wondering because when you said 6mm diameter, I thought you were referring to the leads themselves, which would be pretty big. Sounds right about like what we need. Is there any chance you could point me at a picture of one somewhere online? I'm having trouble visualizing it.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

Well, I finally got the chance to make a working prototype.

It was great to not have to deal with the Nichrome at all, but nice and thick copper leads instead. Unfortunately, I ran into a few problems with this design.

Nichrome: Approx. 1.5" of 36ga NiCr
Power Supply: 5V computer power supply
So there is about 1.5A going through the coil (7.6 Watts).

Note: I still haven't picked up a new multimeter so the resistance I used is the theoretical value.

It lit up just fine. I let it cool and wrapped it in a little bit of cotton (1/6th of a cotton ball or so), and dropped PG/VG 80/20 onto the cotton until it was thoroughly wet. I used about 8 drops, so I guess that's about 0.4ml.

I turned on the power supply and within 1-2 seconds it was smoking. At about 2s the PG/VG started "popping", as usual under these types of tests. I let it run until it looked dry. In all, it was about 7.6W for 55 seconds.

Observations:

• The cotton was almost dry yet exhibited no signs of burning.
• Cotton will burn easily on the bulb if it is completely dry.
• The glass developed a tiny crack (about 3mm long) near the coil. Not sure at what point this happened.
• When I turned off the PS, something was still producing vapor or smoke. It could have been the vaping still going (not surprising after letting it run like that for a minute), or it could have been the epoxy smoking.
• My JB-Weld epoxy does not like high temperatures. After running current through the bulb for 30-40s, I can smell the epoxy. I tested this bulb dry for 4 minutes and the epoxy did not produce any smoke. However, I did seal a test coil (32ga) completely in JB-Weld, and it starts smoking seconds after 5V is applied.

Conclusion:

• Pyrex glass should work much better
• The enclosure should be sealed with glass, or at least high-temperature, food-safe epoxy.
• This design could work.

Needs more testing:

• Heat-up time
• Using stock batteries
• Using it in an actual atomizer environment

Conveniently enough, cotton apparently ignites at 255 degrees Celcius, which is a little before VG starts to decompose into nasty chemicals. I guess that would make it a convenient indicator...

 

[Bubo]

New idea.....
Can we put neon gas in a glass cylinder, with a NiCr wire and use that?
Better than LEDs!

::Running to my corner again!::

 

[Ashhead]

pictures are on the way

 

[jacko]

Roadkill,
Great progress there. I noticed that the high temp insulation for stoves comes with glue that is made to withstand 1000 deg. Maybe you could try that, or I could I guess. That might be a better option than JB Weld.....
I like where this is going. I also think some pyrex may be the answer. I am trying to find some tubes and see if I can seal the ends....maybe with the heat glue.
Nice job, and nice photos.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

Ashhead - awesome

jacko - Pyrex Glass Tubing - moktarino said he bought some of these but we have yet to hear back from him. Will look into that glue, thanks.

 

[jxmiller]

Not sure if it has been mentioned or not here.

I have a thread I had started. It was definitely a more simple common solution... but it is now turning into things you guys are talking about. So I am not going to post in my thread anymore. I will just try to add what I can here.

Here is my post, hope it helps.

I have not looked into it too much but here you go.

Glass, such as borosilicate glass, that is heat-treated or leached to remove alkali so that it withstands high heat and sudden cooling without shattering.

And here is something interesting. A mix of borosilicate & pyrex. I know nothing about pyrex, can you melt it easier than glass? I would think the combination would still require a torch due to the melting properties of borosilicate. Borosilicate has a much higher melting point than common glass.

Please read the Wiki on Borosilicate. And pay attention to the nichrome part I am quoting below.

Aquarium heaters are sometimes made of borosilicate glass. Due to its high heat resistance, it can tolerate the significant temperature difference between the water and the nichrome heating element.

Also I had mentioned earlier that I know a "Glass Blower". If you read on in the wiki... it states marijuana pipes are made from borosilicate glass. The glass blower I know would therefore have a good stash of it then. I imagine he would probably have a wealth of knowledge in the subject as well.

Aslo I found this company. I bet an email to them would provide a great deal of insight as these people have been working with similar things, but for different applications. Art mostly.

Do a search on the page for "Nichrome" and you will see what he did.

Link