New Atomizer Prototype

[crazyhorse]

Thanks rkd. That's disappointing. For some reason I had the warped notion that borosilicate may be highly conductive of heat. Ah well, can't make diamond out of doggie doodoo.

Proceeding on to the next brain fart, I wonder how a nichrome coil dipped in molten copper would do? Or a coil plated with high % silver solder?

 

[highping]

I've got a question (maybe important IDK). I remember reading something a while back about PG (or maybe it was VG) turning from lovely vape to deadly poison gas at a certain temp.
Again, I have tried to go back and find this info now that I am looking into playing with atty re-design, but I can't find anything.
Has anyone else heard of this?
Anybody know what that critical temp is? for PG? for VG?
I've got lots of ideas on efficient ways to get a hot vapor producer (lots of great ideas on this thread too BTW) but I don't want to go "d**k in the dirt" in the process.
Any answers or insights would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Scottes]

I've got a question (maybe important IDK). I remember reading something a while back about PG (or maybe it was VG) turning from lovely vape to deadly poison gas at a certain temp.

Search for "acrolein"
This looks promising:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ng/31335-acrolein-vg-simple-test-results.html

 

[Scottbee]

As you guys toy with ideas for new atomizer designs (and believe me, I'm all for it!), there's something that you really need to think about. And that is thermal efficiency and insulation.

Look at the traditional 510 atty for example. Generally speaking, the thing consumes something like 4W. Of that 4 watts, a tremendous amount of that power is WASTED! Feel the outside of the atty body.. often it is smoking hot! That means that power, a LOT of power is being used to heat the atty body and internals, parts that do not generate vapor. You want the power to generate localized heat.. heat right where the liquid is being vaporized. And you don't want any of that heat to be conducted, convected, or radiated away to parts that play no role in the actual production of vapor.

Just think how much longer your 510 batteries would last if they weren't wasting a substantial amount of their capacity just heating up the outer shell!

Just something to think about.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

I wonder how a nichrome coil dipped in molten copper would do? Or a coil plated with high % silver solder?

Would this be to prevent the Nichrome from touching the liquid? Because copper can be toxic too. Not sure about silver...

As you guys toy with ideas for new atomizer designs (and believe me, I'm all for it!), there's something that you really need to think about. And that is thermal efficiency and insulation.

It seems like cartomizers would be the most efficient since the first thing they heat up is the juice vs. a metal bridge, air, etc. Also, if we're going for insulation, I guess we should just model the way a thermos works. I think the best design will be some sort of cartomizer built like a simple thermos with an internal heating element.

 

[Bubo]

Not that it really matters, but I'm still stuck on glass.... And looking at this, 'cus I'd be able to use it for other things too...

 

[rico]

the best way for temperatur regulation is when you make a condom with

porcelain on this atomizer then we have not a high temperature !

 

[jacko]

Don't know costs, but something like this may help. enclose the coil...

High temperature processing technology | Wear and corrosion resistance ceramic products | SentroTech
and this. Maybe something like this could encapsulate the coil, or partially?
http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/promotion.htm

 

[Scottes]

Looking at Jacko's first link, the smallest they make is 10mm OD. E-cigs are typically 8mm.


Then I thought: Who cares? E-cigs were made to resemble cigarettes. Do we really care, especially those of us with 3/4" Chucks or Prodigies?

Bigger diameter = bigger coil = more vapor?

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

Not that it really matters, but I'm still stuck on glass.... And looking at this, 'cus I'd be able to use it for other things too...

Stuck on glass as well, that looks excellent. Looking into maybe taking a glassworking class even (just from looking into this project, it looks really fun ).

Don't know costs, but something like this may help. enclose the coil...

High temperature processing technology | Wear and corrosion resistance ceramic products | SentroTech
and this. Maybe something like this could encapsulate the coil, or partially?
High Temperature Adhesives and Epoxies, Ceramics, Insulation, Epoxies and Epoxy

Wouldn't using glass be better and safer though? I posted a link on page 2: Pyrex Glass Tubing, 4mm OD x 0.8mm Wall Thickness 12" Length (Pack of 5) - $2.95 (Amazon)

We would also need high-temp, food-grade epoxy if it was exposed to the liquid.

Looking at Jacko's first link, the smallest they make is 10mm OD. E-cigs are typically 8mm.

Then I thought: Who cares? E-cigs were made to resemble cigarettes. Do we really care, especially those of us with 3/4" Chucks or Prodigies?

Bigger diameter = bigger coil = more vapor?

Well, I guess my ultimate goal is a 100% DIY ecig. I'll probably go with a larger diameter just so I can use bigger/cheaper batteries. I don't know much about ecigs other than the 510 but that thick Bling ecigar looks pretty sweet. With one that size, it should be real easy to slide batteries (AAs or CR123's or some standard, readily available size) in/out like a flashlight vs. special, thin $12 batteries.

 

[jacko]

Gee. I had forgotten those pyrex tubes that were so cheap... too many posts to read, I guess.
I like those. I may get some on order to play with.
I like the idea of using the larger dia., too. I like the e-cigars and, your right, that size would be easier to find batteries for.
I have a couple tubes to try a homemade e-cigar just 'cause I was an occasional cigar smoker.

 

[crazyhorse]

Would this be to prevent the Nichrome from touching the liquid? Because copper can be toxic too. Not sure about silver...

I'm thinking a nice thick plating of metal would add strength and durability. If silver or copper would allow for quick and efficient heat transfer, maybe it could make for a pretty rugged coil.

I have no idea what a metal jacket would do to the resistance of a length of nichrome. I also don't know what temperature is required to make toxic gasses from either of these metals. As I said, it's just another brain fart but a coil wound around a suitably tough wick, dipped in phosphoric acid for flux, followed by a quick dip into a puddle of oxy-acetylene melted metal should plate up nicely.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

I'm thinking a nice thick plating of metal would add strength and durability. If silver or copper would allow for quick and efficient heat transfer, maybe it could make for a pretty rugged coil.

I have no idea what a metal jacket would do to the resistance of a length of nichrome. I also don't know what temperature is required to make toxic gasses from either of these metals. As I said, it's just another brain fart but a coil wound around a suitably tough wick, dipped in phosphoric acid for flux, followed by a quick dip into a puddle of oxy-acetylene melted metal should plate up nicely.

Just realized, the fundamental problem with this is that it would "short-circuit" the coil... the resistance will be way lower and the energy will travel through the silver or copper with little to no heating.

 

[crazyhorse]

Would the coil short if is was plated and not a lump? As in, a plated length of NiCr 60 loosely coiled around a wick?

What would the resistance be of 1" 40 AWG NiCr 60 @ 5.64 ohm if plated with the equivalent of 1" of 30 AWG silver @ .007 ohm? Would this be durable?

Isn't silver very conductive for heat?

Sound like some trial and error. I wish I had an oxy-acetylene setup.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

Would the coil short if is was plated and not a lump? As in, a plated length of NiCr 60 loosely coiled around a wick?

What would the resistance be of 1" 40 AWG NiCr 60 @ 5.64 ohm if plated with the equivalent of 1" of 30 AWG silver @ .007 ohm? Would this be durable?

Isn't silver very conductive for heat?

Sound like some trial and error. I wish I had an oxy-acetylene setup.

The problem is, none of the current will pass through the Nichrome when it can go through the silver so easily. Think of the Nichrome as a horrible road with speed bumps every 10 feet. Heat is created by the energy taking the slow, bumpy route--but if they are offered a freeway (silver), they'll gladly take that instead. Short circuit image

I might be wrong, however. I guess if the silver is thin enough, it will have higher resistance (but at that point it will add little to the strength of the coil). And maybe current flow works a little differently with plating, but i'm pretty sure it won't have the effect you're looking for

 

[moktarino]

Thanks rkd. That's disappointing. For some reason I had the warped notion that borosilicate may be highly conductive of heat. Ah well, can't make diamond out of doggie doodoo.

Proceeding on to the next brain fart, I wonder how a nichrome coil dipped in molten copper would do? Or a coil plated with high % silver solder?

It's not, but depending upon the thickness of the glass it may not be an issue. When I talk about thin glass, I mean thinner than an eggshell.

I bought some of the 4mm OD .8mm thickness tubing and some 38ga nichrome, hopefully they'll get here around the same time as my DSE801 kit so I can do some experimentin'.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

It's not, but depending upon the thickness of the glass it may not be an issue. When I talk about thin glass, I mean thinner than an eggshell.

I bought some of the 4mm OD .8mm thickness tubing and some 38ga nichrome, hopefully they'll get here around the same time as my DSE801 kit so I can do some experimentin'.

Awesome! 38ga will be "fun", haha. I didn't realize how fragile 36ga was until I had to make those tiny coils... Plus, they have this awful tendency to spring out of my hands and get lost on the floor

The only thing that worries me about "eggshell-thin" glass is breakage, but maybe since it's thin thermal expansion will be less of an issue? And it's pyrex too, which hopefully helps

 

[crazyhorse]

The problem is, none of the current will pass through the Nichrome when it can go through the silver so easily. Think of the Nichrome as a horrible road with speed bumps every 10 feet. Heat is created by the energy taking the slow, bumpy route--but if they are offered a freeway (silver), they'll gladly take that instead. Short circuit image

I might be wrong, however. I guess if the silver is thin enough, it will have higher resistance (but at that point it will add little to the strength of the coil). And maybe current flow works a little differently with plating, but i'm pretty sure it won't have the effect you're looking for

That makes sense. Even to the mechanically challenged

Brings me back to dipping the coil in pyrex but it would probably be a very fine line between glass breakage and effective heat conductivity.

 

[roadkilldeluxe]

Brings me back to dipping the coil in pyrex but it would probably be a very fine line between glass breakage and effective heat conductivity.

It is quite difficult, even simple glass-to-metal seals are quite a challenge, I can't imagine encasing an entire coil though =/ The biggest factor is thermal expansion coefficient, and as you can see by this graph, there's no perfect solution.

I posted this a few posts back, but another design to consider might be something like this. The glass would be used only for the liquid, and the coil would be on the outside. I don't know if a design like this would work at all, but it is surely much simpler to put the juice in the glass vs. metal in the glass. Just throwing that out there...

 

[Scubabatdan]

OK I got my 5 battery powered soldering tips in:

Peliminary test:
I took one tip and dipped it in ejuice, I then connected it to a 18350 battery. It took 1.5 seconds before vapor was produced! Very encouraging. I am getting the same ohm resistance as my 901 atty, 3.4! Getting better all the time. I will try and post a video. More to follow...
Dan