New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[David Wolf]

If I could summarize everything I've learned in this thread, including the studies referenced, it would be that vaping pure VG = bad, pure VG with 5% water = Good, vaping pure PG = you must be a beast

 

[Eskie]

If I could summarize everything I've learned in this thread, including the studies referenced, it would be that vaping pure VG = bad, pure VG with 5% water = Good, vaping pure PG = you must be a beast

Meh, given the problem of getting a 100% pure VG juice to wick would be a physical impediment to inhaling formaldehyde. And if you insist on vaping that way, maybe you deserve it.

Water vaporizes far below it's boiling point. What I read is liquid molecules are moving, have velocity, all different velocities at random.So a molecule on the surface of a liquid has enough velocity to break free but gravity pulls most of them back. Heat up the liquid and the average velocity increases and more molecules escape and don't fall back into the liquid. End result, vapor. My everyday eliquid mix is in the signiture area below, pretty average. I just took a puff, got good vapor and warmth and AF firmware says max temp was 316 F. Every time I rewick I check resistance with dry cotton. The coil is testing the same for several weeks. I look for the cotton to be barely singed at 420 F setting.

Do remember that unlike say a pot of water you're heating from the bottom and getting evaporation at the boundary layer of water to air, here we are actively drawing air across the coil which will increase evaporation by itself. Which from a vaping and liquid evaporation perspective means more vapor, and from the coil perspective lower temperatures with that increase in evaporation carrying heat away. Of course that evaporated vapor does begin to rapidly cool so you're inhaling a vape of 100-120F and not scorching your mouth. If you just took a coil and applied current without any airflow, you would not create the type of production we get with vaping. And if you're not in TC the heat will continue to build and scorch the crap out of everything.

 

[mikepetro]

David, I hear you about juice vs coil temperature. I still think that juice in contact with the coil approaches coil temp, even above the boiling the point if the coil is hot enough. If heat didnt decompose juice into by-products in those CE4 studies, then it would have had to have been the silica wick itself generating the nasties.

We will have to leave that one up to the guys with real labs as I cant prove that one way or another.

However, if VG gives off nasties at 420, and your boiling point is below 420, why burn hotter than 420?

For an example of why testing actual devices can vary significantly from this study of LIQUID (not coil) temperatures in the OP, see this:
Effect of variable power levels on the yield of total aerosol mass and formation of aldehydes in e-cigarette aerosols

That was a wattage based study, we have no idea how hot it was getting inside those atties. Nasties are by-products of heat, not wattage per-se. They themselves said "Another interesting and important consideration for future studies would be direct measurement of the temperature of the coil during activation to better understand what coil temperatures lead to decomposition"

I suspect what you tasted "different" was overheated cotton, or burned juice (gunk), I know that taste. Unless you are saying you tasted some aldehydes?

I am using rayon, yes, there is small amount of gunk around the coils, which stains the wick. I say stain because it rinses snow white under a dribble of water. I guess the off flavor "could" have been pg/vg burning/caramelizing onto the coil, which is thermal decomposition in and of itself. LOL I dont profess to know what aldehydes taste like, dont think I want to know.

"These results suggest that the total amount of carbonyls emitted from e-cigarettes is not only closely associated with the vaping temperature but also with the e-liquid mass consumed by vapers. "

Yeah, the mass part is sort of a no-brainer. The denser your vape, the more you are exposed to.

 

[sofarsogood]

Meh, given the problem of getting a 100% pure VG juice to wick would be a physical impediment to inhaling formaldehyde. And if you insist on vaping that way, maybe you deserve it.

Do remember that unlike say a pot of water you're heating from the bottom and getting evaporation at the boundary layer of water to air, here we are actively drawing air across the coil which will increase evaporation by itself. Which from a vaping and liquid evaporation perspective means more vapor, and from the coil perspective lower temperatures with that increase in evaporation carrying heat away. Of course that evaporated vapor does begin to rapidly cool so you're inhaling a vape of 100-120F and not scorching your mouth. If you just took a coil and applied current without any airflow, you would not create the type of production we get with vaping. And if you're not in TC the heat will continue to build and scorch the crap out of everything.

The point I was trying to make is that vaporization (evaporation) can take place at a wide range of temperature. Once I read a simple description of what evaporation is it makes sense. It would make sense if the words volitile and velocity have the same roots.

 

[mikepetro]

If I could summarize everything I've learned in this thread, including the studies referenced, it would be that vaping pure VG = bad, pure VG with 5% water = Good, vaping pure PG = you must be a beast

Take what you can and leave the rest.......

 

[mikepetro]

The point I was trying to make is that vaporization (evaporation) can take place at a wide range of temperature. Once I read a simple description of what evaporation is it makes sense. It would make sense if the words volitile and velocity have the same roots.

Yes, I should have said "meaningful vapor", as in what we are after, only occurs at the boiling point.

Vapor occurs at lower temps, but not enough to yield a satisfying hit. Just like ice can evaporate in a freezer, but it doesnt yield steam.

 

[David Wolf]

David, I hear you about juice vs coil temperature. I still think that juice in contact with the coil approaches coil temp, even above the boiling the point if the coil is hot enough. If heat didnt decompose juice into by-products in those CE4 studies, then it would have had to have been the silica wick itself generating the nasties.

We will have to leave that one up to the guys with real labs as I cant prove that one way or another.

However, if VG gives off nasties at 420, and your boiling point is below 420, why burn hotter than 420?

That was a wattage based study, we have no idea how hot it was getting inside those atties. Nasties are by-products of heat, not wattage per-se. They themselves said "Another interesting and important consideration for future studies would be direct measurement of the temperature of the coil during activation to better understand what coil temperatures lead to decomposition"


I am using rayon, yes, there is small amount of gunk around the coils, which stains the wick. I say stain because it rinses snow white under a dribble of water. I guess the off flavor "could" have been pg/vg burning/caramelizing onto the coil, which is thermal decomposition in and of itself. LOL I dont profess to know what aldehydes taste like, dont think I want to know.


Yeah, the mass part is sort of a no-brainer. The denser your vape, the more you are exposed to.

Well then we both agree that juice in contact with the coil approaches the coil temperature. You're excellent test proves that to me. I was just saying that I believe most of the liquid being vaporized is not at the coil temperature, I base that on knowing heat conduction from coil through the wick there's a temperature gradient, and on the other studies showing low aldehydes from actual atomizer/tank tests like the Nautilus and the subtank. True that we don't know the coil temps in those tests but they ran them up pretty high power for the normal range of vaping.

 

[mikepetro]

Well then we both agree that juice in contact with the coil approaches the coil temperature. You're excellent test proves that to me. I was just saying that I believe most of the liquid being vaporized is not at the coil temperature, I base that on the other studies showing low aldehydes from actual atomizer/tank tests like the Nautilus and the subtank.

Yeah, I dont put as much stock in a non-temp based study. Nasties are a function of thermal decomposition at known temperatures, you gotta know the temp to make good correlations.

I do agree that a significant, perhaps most, boils off at the boiling point. The crude around my coils tells me something is burning though, and in this case its not flavoring.

 

[Eskie]

Well then we both agree that juice in contact with the coil approaches the coil temperature. You're excellent test proves that to me. I was just saying that I believe most of the liquid being vaporized is not at the coil temperature, I base that on knowing heat conduction from coil to wick there's a temperature gradient, and on the other studies showing low aldehydes from actual atomizer/tank tests like the Nautilus and the subtank. True that we don't know the coil temps in those tests but they ran them up pretty high power for the normal range of vaping.

I agree with you to the extent that postulating actual aldehyde production is likely less in typical vaping scenarios than that reactor, and coupled with Mike's excellent data validating TC properly controlling those temperatures, as well as his temp recordings in watt only mode support that standard vape gear/build/ coil/wick stuff support that assumption. That's why the next step testing of aldehydes coming out of contemporary tanks while using some type of thermocouple to independent corroborate temps would be the so helpful, particularly monitoring temp while in watt mode, which is still the most popular method of vaping these days.

Oops, sort of what Mike just said a minute before I hit reply.

 

[David Wolf]

Yeah, I dont put as much stock in a non-temp based study. Nasties are a function of thermal decomposition at known temperatures, you gotta know the temp to make good correlations.

I do agree that a significant, perhaps most, boils off at the boiling point. The crude around my coils tells me something is burning though, and in this case its not flavoring.

I have more faith in studies of actual vaping devices than the referenced study as far as how much aldehydes we vapers get, even if they don't measure coil temp knowing the power levels and juices used tells us a lot.

The point you make about crud is a good one. Some studies I've read indicate that aldehydes increase after say 60 puffs and I suspect crud build up is the reason.

 

[mikepetro]

I have more faith in studies of actual vaping devices than the referenced study as far as how much aldehydes we vapers get, even if they don't measure coil temp knowing the power levels and juices used tells us a lot.

The point you make about crud is a good one. Some studies I've read indicate that aldehydes increase after say 60 puffs and I suspect crud build up is the reason.

What we need is that same exact study, with modern atties, but based on temp settings rather than wattage settings.

Brandon alluded to me that he has data backing up the increase of nasties as the coil/wick get cruded up. We are cooking our own crud and creating more crud.

 

[David Wolf]

I agree with you to the extent that postulating actual aldehyde production is likely less in typical vaping scenarios than that reactor, and coupled with Mike's excellent data validating TC properly controlling those temperatures, as well as his temp recordings in watt only mode support that standard vape gear/build/ coil/wick stuff support that assumption. That's why the next step testing of aldehydes coming out of contemporary tanks while using some type of thermocouple to independent corroborate temps would be the so helpful, particularly monitoring temp while in watt mode, which is still the most popular method of vaping these days.

Oops, sort of what Mike just said a minute before I hit reply.

I agree. Test actual devices with a tiny TC on the coil at various power levels. And measure aldehydes over time as crud builds on the coil. I've always been one to either rewick and burn off the crud or recoil far more often than most here, I can taste my vape getting a little off taste after only one refill of a tank or pod.

 

[mikepetro]

Part of the problem, and hopefully it stays this way, is that atty/mod tech advances faster than science can measure it. It takes them a year to do a single study, in the meantime all of the hardware they used becomes obsolete.

 

[David Wolf]

Part of the problem, and hopefully it stays this way, is that atty/mod tech advances faster than science can measure it. It takes them a year to do a single study, in the meantime all of the hardware they used becomes obsolete.

Very true. But hopefully manufacturers can learn something by these tests and can improve. Actually they should be doing their own testing! Listening, China? Lol

 

[mikepetro]

Very true. But hopefully manufacturers can learn something by these tests and can improve. Actually they should be doing their own testing! Listening, China? Lol

PMTAs will make that a necessity. I bet BT has already done all of this testing but are keeping it to themselves for commercial advantage.

 

[David Wolf]

PMTAs will make that a necessity. I bet BT has already done all of this testing but are keeping it to themselves for commercial advantage.

Yeah so get out your wallet unless someone stops BT from taking over vaping with the help of the FDA and nothings left but crudy little ecigalikes and expensive Juul pods.

 

[mikepetro]

Yeah so get out your wallet unless someone stops BT from taking over vaping with the help of the FDA and nothings left but crudy little ecigalikes.

They wont get any of my money, but it sucks for the "billion lives" out there that havent figured vaping out yet.

 

[Eskie]

Part of the problem, and hopefully it stays this way, is that atty/mod tech advances faster than science can measure it. It takes them a year to do a single study, in the meantime all of the hardware they used becomes obsolete.

True, but it only took you one weekend to get those thermocouple data together. I think the industry can come up with a way of accomplishing the same without a huge investment. I do hope if basic testing like this is done and accepted as a PMTA, or however it finally turns out as requirements for applications, that these data can be use for SE applications, because as you state, heat is heat.

And while I do understand the dysfunctional manner most bureaucracies function under, reinventing the wheel several thousand times is really pretty stupid, especially from an objective scientific perspective.

 

[zoiDman]

PMTAs will make that a necessity. I bet BT has already done all of this testing but are keeping it to themselves for commercial advantage.

One thing to keep in Mind, when considering a PMTA, is that TC Isn't going to be used to Enhance the Hit a user gets. It is going to be Built in to Prevent Exceeding a Given Wire Temperature.

If the Study Data supports that at Something Non-Beneficial occurs at say 420F and above, you can be Assured that TC would be Hard-Wired to Never Exceed 420F. Or Less

And the user won't have the Ability to turn TC On/Off. TC will Always be On.

 

[sofarsogood]

Yes, I should have said "meaningful vapor", as in what we are after, only occurs at the boiling point.

Vapor occurs at lower temps, but not enough to yield a satisfying hit. Just like ice can evaporate in a freezer, but it doesnt yield steam.

There can be lots of wire, multiple coils, fired at a lower temp and produce lots of vapor or less wire at a higher temp. There isn't a one to one correlation between temp and vapor if there can be different coil arrangements.