New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Well, he obviously didnt grasp (pun intended) the concept....I will make sure that Mr. Costanza receives adequate warning.
Actually, this Protank Test, along with the VV Nova test, and the Silica wicking tests, is really strengthening my theory that "silica" maybe the culprit for Dr Kurt's high formaldehyde findings at ANY power level.
Simply switching to a cotton lowered the temp dramatically, and with a more satisfying vape to boot!
Simply switching to a cotton lowered the temp dramatically, and with a more satisfying vape to boot!
Mike, I'm curious about any posible difference in HF between the coils you used. Do you know what gauge wire is used in the 2.2 stock coils?
And/or did you make the 1.7 ohm coil with the same diameter and number of wraps as the 2.2's?
Thanks, and once again, you rock
No clue on either. I didnt measure the stock coil.Mike, I'm curious about any posible difference in HF between the coils you used. Do you know what gauge wire is used in the 2.2 stock coils?
And/or did you make the 1.7 ohm coils with the same diameter and number of wraps as the 2.2's?
Thanks, and once again, you rock
And the rebuilds were made by @englishmick
A good bit of evidence already out there in scientific studies that silica is great for releasing aldehydes
nice testing on the Protank Mike, especially showing how much better a cotton wick is for keeping the coil cooler. Common sense can also tell us that silica conducts heat far better than cotton.
Do my best.
The rebuilt coils were 7 wraps of 30g Kanthal on a 1/16th bit. @MacTechVpr style contact coils. Sure glad I listened to Mac now.
The stock coils I'm pretty sure are 32g, think I read that. Don't know how many wraps, I'm guessing 5 or 6 from memory. They are spaced coils. Widely spaced and rather irregular, look like they were wrapped by hand around the silica wick. They might be a little thinner than my 1/16th coils but not much. In addition to the silica wicks they have a couple of thin pieces of silica laid on top of the coils, which people call flavor wicks.
That's all the info I have.
It's interesting that what led people towards contact coils and cotton wicks was searching for a better tasting more satisfying vape rather than any idea that they were safer. I wouldn't have been able to guess that the vape was cooler, if it had occurred to me to ask the question. I don't know if them being contact coils had any effect on the results of the tests, or if it was all down to the cotton and the airflow.
Thanks for doing this Mike. I feel a lot better about using the PT's now.
See the first page of this thread for links to all the studies referenced in the thread. Lots of information in Mike's blog posts as well, which are also referenced in the first post.
If you dont object I can dissect the stock coil and see exactly what it is.
Ooh, somebody got a Pharaoh! Great testing, Mike!
So, more airflow and more liquid by wicking gives lower temperatures, an intuitive outcome. A 6W mtl setup getting up to 500F easily, unintuitive (at least to me) but important to know. Under the conditions you tested, wattage and temperature can be "decoupled", with lower watts believed to be "cooler" turn out quite the opposite. So we all need to pay attention to what we vape on and not just the current used to vape with.
Help yourself. I always rebuild them before I use them anyway.
I did look around and find some more original heads if you have any use for them. Each tank came with 2, one being 1.75, the other supposedly being 2.5 though it seems like the resistance wasn't very reliable. I have a few PT's still in the box with their original coils.
Also noteworthy: More coil surface area. The 7-wrap, 30 ga rebuild has almost double the surface area of the stock 5-wrap 32ga coil. At a fixed wattage, that means it has only about half the heat flux...
I noticed on one of the first charts you posted you did a comparison of the air flow half open against fully open, with the same power. The temp at half open was significantly higher, looked like around 40 or 50 degrees. Since the stock tanks without the airflow control base have very restrictive airflow I guess that means they would be even hotter.
The safer power level limit of 9 W equates to around 4 to 4.2 volts on the rebuilt coils. I normally set my Spinner at 3.8 or 4.0. Most PT users are probably using VV mods like Spinners that go up to 4.8. I can remember when I first got the PT's with the stock heads I was pushing the voltage way up just to get a decent hit. Not to mention chain vaping to get enough nic to keep the cigs at bay.
Shudder to think what the temp would be chain vaping at 4.8 V on a stock head with stock air flow.
The safer power level limit of 9 W equates to around 4 to 4.2 volts on the rebuilt coils. I normally set my Spinner at 3.8 or 4.0. Most PT users are probably using VV mods like Spinners that go up to 4.8. I can remember when I first got the PT's with the stock heads I was pushing the voltage way up just to get a decent hit. Not to mention chain vaping to get enough nic to keep the cigs at bay.
Shudder to think what the temp would be chain vaping at 4.8 V on a stock head with stock air flow.
All correct. But let's all remember:
Vape and high temp=aldehyde production
Vape vs. Smoking=Vape is still the big winner
Even if levels of formaldehyde are the same as cigarettes (not thrilled about it) that's not the only chemical produced by combustible tobacco, so while we may be able to improve the safety profile of vaping by trying to keep temps reasonable, we are still ahead on health and safety.
However, if I were still using older sets with stuff like the PT or clearo or other stuff, it's probably a good idea to upgrade to some more recent tanks and factory coils, if you don't want to build which is perfectly reasonable, with a contemporary variable wattage mod.
Looking at the Vivi Nova temp results vs the Protank 2, stock heads at 3.7 volts or 6 watts come up cooler in the Nova. The 1.8 ohm Vivi Nova head using silica reaches temps that are similar to the cotton rebuilt Protank head at 1.7 ohms at these lower power levels. I'm a little glad in retrospect that I didn't like the vape from my Protanks and Evods from that first co-op and ended up with Vivi Novas lol!
With silica's limited capillary action combined with a lack of vacuum pressure, I didn't expect a top coil to do well versus a bottom coil design. Same gauge wire, similar coil diameter, spacing and wick material. Novas have a fixed tight airflow, so that wasn't an advantage. I'm assuming that the temperature test of the Vamo vs the ProVari showed they weren't significantly different, but I suspect the Vamo's PWM spikes affected the Protank results. Possibly the liquid surrounding the head being heated repeatedly plays into it. I wonder if the different liquid mix was much of a factor in these results, as both viscosity and boiling points are somewhat lower in the Nova tests.
I get the impression that simply vaping a lower resistance coil at the same wattage will produce lower coil temps, even with the same gauge wire. Very interesting and useful!
Looks like my emergency batch of stock 2.8 ohm Nova coils will be moved to the canister of used coils awaiting a 2 ohm rayon rebuild. I might even drop down to 31 gauge. A bit better flow, a bit more mass and a bit less resistance and I hope to stay well below 400F.
I feel like instead of just knowing how to drive with a stick, I now understand more about how the clutch works so as to keep it operating well. TC, like an automatic transmission, keeps things safer for the average operator in everyday use. I can see how it is really important to help newer vapers as they are the least likely to research and tinker, being late on the adoption curve.
Thanks again for this ongoing work to understand our vapes Mike! On the weekend no less!
With silica's limited capillary action combined with a lack of vacuum pressure, I didn't expect a top coil to do well versus a bottom coil design. Same gauge wire, similar coil diameter, spacing and wick material. Novas have a fixed tight airflow, so that wasn't an advantage. I'm assuming that the temperature test of the Vamo vs the ProVari showed they weren't significantly different, but I suspect the Vamo's PWM spikes affected the Protank results. Possibly the liquid surrounding the head being heated repeatedly plays into it. I wonder if the different liquid mix was much of a factor in these results, as both viscosity and boiling points are somewhat lower in the Nova tests.
I get the impression that simply vaping a lower resistance coil at the same wattage will produce lower coil temps, even with the same gauge wire. Very interesting and useful!
Looks like my emergency batch of stock 2.8 ohm Nova coils will be moved to the canister of used coils awaiting a 2 ohm rayon rebuild. I might even drop down to 31 gauge. A bit better flow, a bit more mass and a bit less resistance and I hope to stay well below 400F.
I feel like instead of just knowing how to drive with a stick, I now understand more about how the clutch works so as to keep it operating well. TC, like an automatic transmission, keeps things safer for the average operator in everyday use. I can see how it is really important to help newer vapers as they are the least likely to research and tinker, being late on the adoption curve.
Thanks again for this ongoing work to understand our vapes Mike! On the weekend no less!
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