I wonder if the combined aldehydes pose the same or lower risks as one individual aldehyde of the same amount?
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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My apologies in advance if this has already been posted. At the bottom of this page E-Cigarette Summit UK 2017 is a video of Dr. F speaking very recently at an e-cig summit. Well worth watching and directly relevent to this thread. He was comparing toxicants between cigarettes, heat not burn and vaping. My impression from the presentation is heat not burn produces 10% of what's found in cigarettes and vaping produces 1%,. I believe I heard him say the vaping test involved a nautilus mini. Based on what he finds it's a stretch to say even tootle puffers have to worry much about bad chemicals. (Long live the tootle puffers.)
A few points on these studies. Especially Dr. F's. He describes his values based on watts which is fine I guess but it doesn't necessarily translate as well as Temp does. The reason is 9 watts will be completely different temps on different coils at different resistances. Since he didn't state the resistance of the coil he used it will be hard to infer the temp that the coil reached. Since the production of the aldehydes are negligible below a certain temp (I think it was like 450F-470F) knowing the temp of the coil becomes a priority in any test. To this end, I think it would be wise to understand for different wire types what temp will be reached at certain wattages based on the resistance/mass of the coil.
270C is 518F, while yes some people do go that high I don't think it is a large % of vapers that do. The 318C also tested by Wang is 604F which I have never heard of anyone using except maybe the cloud comp/trick guys using 0 nic unflavored. Personally I vape in TC mode at 435F which should keep me safely in the range of very low aldehyde emissions. I also recall that VG was worse than PG and my liquid is 65PG/35VG so even better than the 50/50 mixes.
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"Insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Coil geometry, wicking, viscosity & boiling point of liquid, and airflow will all have a substantial influence.
I agree with all that you said. That still doesn't change the fact that Temperature is going to be #1 thing we need to know in order to estimate the amount of aldehydes we are producing. Of course with that many variables there will ALWAYS be some margin for error, but if we can at least be in the ball park of relative safety we will be much better off than not knowing at all. That was my point.
Yeah a lot of variables. Thus why I use TC mode exclusively now, set to a relatively safe 435F. For those that don't we may have to make some assumptions for some of those variables and calculate the ones that are easier to measure/control to at least get people in a ball park range. If you say it's not even remotely possible then fine. I'll just stick to my TC and happily vape on.
Some of us believe (and will continue to unless unequivocally proven otherwise) that we got front row seats when we switched to vaping.
My ticket into the ball park was given to me the minute I stomped out my last cigarette.
I touched the Green Monster. Oh yes I did.
I touched the Green Monster. Oh yes I did.
I know this is an old thread, but I would like to say that the only variable we need is coil temp. I am glad some e-cig researchers are finally figuring this out. However, not all have. I read a paper published this year where the researchers were going on and on about wattage and resistance in their "methods" section. Not once did they mention temperature, heat capacity or coil surface area. It's as if they don't understand the first thing about thermodynamics. But, hey, why should they? Most of them are in the medical field, not physics. Ask them about cell biology and I am sure they are experts, but when it comes to physics 101, they are clueless (sad really).
The truth is that wattage and coil resistance mean absolutely nothing here. What matters is coil temp. You can have a 1.8ohm coil in a kayfun at 9W reach much higher temps than a 0.3 in a dual-coil RDA at 75W. The glycerol and PG don't give a damn about coil resistance or wattage or airflow -- they only care about one thing: how hot is it?
So I ask these e-cig researchers to do three things before they write their next paper:
1) Walk over to your physics department at your university and ask for a crash course in thermodynamics. This is really basic stuff that I am sure any professor or grad student will be happy to help you with.
2) Start using modern devices in your studies. These guys are still using Kanger EVOD's in 2017 research papers. Even the most newbie vaper doesn't use those attys anymore.
3) Please study temp control devices. I would love to see an Evolv or Yihi board utilized in these studies to determine the effect temp control has on the carbonyl emissions. Accuracy aside, these boards WILL keep the vape at a constant temperature throughout the duration of the draw. Airflow doesn't matter, the build doesn't matter, the chamber size and dimensions don't matter. All that matters is that the mod is keeping the temp constant. I would like to see a comparison with such a mod and a laboratory chamber that can accurately measure the temp inside. Depending on the wire type used, I doubt these mods are more than 5°C off.
The truth is that wattage and coil resistance mean absolutely nothing here. What matters is coil temp. You can have a 1.8ohm coil in a kayfun at 9W reach much higher temps than a 0.3 in a dual-coil RDA at 75W. The glycerol and PG don't give a damn about coil resistance or wattage or airflow -- they only care about one thing: how hot is it?
So I ask these e-cig researchers to do three things before they write their next paper:
1) Walk over to your physics department at your university and ask for a crash course in thermodynamics. This is really basic stuff that I am sure any professor or grad student will be happy to help you with.
2) Start using modern devices in your studies. These guys are still using Kanger EVOD's in 2017 research papers. Even the most newbie vaper doesn't use those attys anymore.
3) Please study temp control devices. I would love to see an Evolv or Yihi board utilized in these studies to determine the effect temp control has on the carbonyl emissions. Accuracy aside, these boards WILL keep the vape at a constant temperature throughout the duration of the draw. Airflow doesn't matter, the build doesn't matter, the chamber size and dimensions don't matter. All that matters is that the mod is keeping the temp constant. I would like to see a comparison with such a mod and a laboratory chamber that can accurately measure the temp inside. Depending on the wire type used, I doubt these mods are more than 5°C off.
I think that is precisely why @mikepetro took it upon himself to conduct the study outlined in this thread.
He was very clear that it was the thermal degradation of eliquid at various temperatures that was key, and he used modern equipment with Evolv's DNA boards set to Temperature Control (or temperature limiting as Evolv now like to describe the technology).
While hampered by a very limited budget compared to a University Research team or a corporate R&D department, I think he did a marvelous job. He readily admits he has some concerns regarding the absolute accuracy of his equipment, but I think he has done more than enough to prove a link to dramatically increased toxin production at temperatures beyond 440f/450f, and also the almost complete absence of these toxins at temperatures below 440f.
I look forward to follow up research by companies or universities with more elaborate resources, and I'm thankful for the effort he has gone to in getting us this far.
Is there a chart somewhere that can convert my 8w to temp?
I apologize for not fully reading and understanding this thread.
There are a lot of variables, but if you are used to low wattage, I'd say start with a low temp and preheat. My temperature settings are far below the "ceiling" which you don't have to achieve unless you WANT to, I found that I needed to keep wattage and temp low to avoid burning my coil and/or having too hot or much vape. Giving a precise 8 watts== X temp doesn't really work though, as mods are different, coils are different, and etc. It will probably take some experimenting on your part.... Good luck,
Anna
Anna
@r77r7r
I would suggest you read mikes blog... But basically if you are not using a decent, well set up TC mod there are too many variables to allow you to determine the coil temp.
Mike has managed to gather some useful information, On a limited budget. I think it's time for the big boys in the industry to put up some cash to fund some proper research. Or perhaps they could just release some of the information they already have to the public domain, rather than just trying to cash in?
I would suggest you read mikes blog... But basically if you are not using a decent, well set up TC mod there are too many variables to allow you to determine the coil temp.
Mike has managed to gather some useful information, On a limited budget. I think it's time for the big boys in the industry to put up some cash to fund some proper research. Or perhaps they could just release some of the information they already have to the public domain, rather than just trying to cash in?
If your topper and preferred coil can be accessed with his thermocouple, Mike will test it as long as you cover return shipping and donate three sacrificial coils. Better than any chart which would have numerous assumptions.
Confirmed, that offer is still open. However, let me know the atty type first so I can look it up and see if it is one I am capable of testing. I have been pretty successful with most attys so far. However, some of the newer atties with dual parallel coils present a challenge as the dual coils are so close to each other that the thermocouple tip shorts them out.
Just a nautilus tank. I also run a joye exceed tank and a 3ohm carto tank 
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