I use two mods a day,10 W power mode during the day and 410 F TC at night.After reading this it is now 410 F TC all day from now on.It seems silly to risk anything but TC if you have the mods to do it.Thanks @mikepetro for bringing this to our attention.
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Seems Evolve and other manufactures may be targets for future lawsuits, should someone develop cancer from using these early generation devices.
Not that I would, or advocate a lawsuit.
We've got people now filing lawsuits because they "didn't know" not to put a loose battery in their pocket.
Not that I would, or advocate a lawsuit.
We've got people now filing lawsuits because they "didn't know" not to put a loose battery in their pocket.
I was wondering about this particular chart as well. Actually, I'm reading it as 5 puffs within a 30 second interval. Maybe I'm mistaken? Not seeing the puff duration, or the down time between puffs, but 5 puffs on a 2.4 ohm CE4 within 30 seconds is not my idea of a normal, let alone pleasant vaping experience. I remember how warm those high-ohm devices would become externally after only a few puffs over a couple minutes. I'd wager I've never done 5 in 30 the entire 3 years I've been vaping.Am I reading this correctly? Does this mean that one would have to take a 30 second draw to get to these levels? I am thinking that this is the graft that was produced when a topper was hooked to a machine to simulate vaping and the machine was able to do something no one in their right mind would ever do.
I think the bottom line is, yes VG/PG heated to extremes will produce carcinogens (like any other burning substance). But didn't we already know that? There was a study some time back that cooked the insides of CE4's with 10 second hits to prove it. So they tested it in a "stainless steel reactor" just to get exact measurements. Ok.
Temp control is a logical direction to go in, but I've often wondered if we leap-frogged past the first step, which is every device, regardless of what type of setup it's running, should have a simple temperature gauge as standard equipment. Without that basic tool, everything is just guesswork. Remember the old "overheat" idiot lights on cars? "Gee, thanks for informing me that I've already overheated."
Nice well thought out infomercial, pimp their product, use creative ‘science’ to support their claims, attempt to eliminate competition in the future / post final FDA regulation e cig market.
Mostly to practice their PMTA approval pitch on current / experienced e cig users, gain support & increase sales.
Coming to you from a company & their supporters that believe they have defensible patents concerning all VW and TC vaping devices.
The FDA has stated the chance of PMTA approval for any device that doesn't have temp limiting / temp control capabilities to be very slim.
Mostly to practice their PMTA approval pitch on current / experienced e cig users, gain support & increase sales.
Coming to you from a company & their supporters that believe they have defensible patents concerning all VW and TC vaping devices.
The FDA has stated the chance of PMTA approval for any device that doesn't have temp limiting / temp control capabilities to be very slim.
Again, missing my point.
Emphasis mine..."were vaporized in a stainless steel, tubular reactor in flowing air ranging up to 318°C to simulate e-cigarette vaping."
So no, they didn't analyse vapor coming out of an E-Zig, they "simulated" it.
Now if they used actual Tanks/Mods, ok. But they didn't. A shame, because that would have been really interesting for a change.
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So it's apparently the smaller coil with thinner wire that is a factor. If so I am guessing that most all of the smaller older style coils would be considered equally risky whether in a CE4, Protank, Nautilus or even installed in an RBA. I'm assuming it's because they reach unacceptable temperature levels so quickly without TC?
I dug up a four year old post on another forum forum where a vaper used a temperature sensor on a CE4 coil and found 220 degrees celsius at 12 watts and 270 degrees celsius at 18 watts. I inferred from that unscientific test that a six watt load on a wet coil would remain below 200 degrees celsius, or about 400 degrees fahrenheit. This is only my inference so far and certainly may be wrong.
I dug up a four year old post on another forum forum where a vaper used a temperature sensor on a CE4 coil and found 220 degrees celsius at 12 watts and 270 degrees celsius at 18 watts. I inferred from that unscientific test that a six watt load on a wet coil would remain below 200 degrees celsius, or about 400 degrees fahrenheit. This is only my inference so far and certainly may be wrong.
Yes, John has a vested interest in TC control. But please dont discount all the data because of this. This conference was researchers from all walks of life, Professors, Scientists, Doctors, the vast majority of which are not vested in Evolv at all.
The study that recorded the carcinogens vs temperature charts for example was in no way related to Evolv. That study was done by the California Dept of Public Health. Evolv is in Ohio.
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In the case of the CE4, it was the small wire AND the fact that it was a top coil design that did not sufficiently saturate the coil.
This is not a criticism, but just to seek clarity in the message. Watts, voltage, coil and whatnot all do come into play as those are the components that create the temperature we're talking about here, so are still important in determining what happens to juice when "vaporized".
The presentation from Evolv was only one of 16 presentations at the 2/21/17 "Committee on the Review of the Health Effects of Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems (ENDS): An Information-Gathering Workshop" 2/21/17 - Welcome : Health and Medicine Division
The Evolv presentation was in part relying on data from that study by Wang et.al. published in PLOS A Device-Independent Evaluation of Carbonyl Emissions from Heated Electronic Cigarette Solvents
Evolv did not fund that study, and the data presented by Bellinger was extrapolated from the Wang study.
The temperature/puff count thing did come from Evolv and the stats gathered through ECigStats, but there was no testing of an Evolv board regulating a coil and measuring what breakdown products were produced, it's just implied. It was certainly not a study of an Evolv board's performance at preventing those breakdown products from being produced.
Mike, I think some are skipping over some important information. Folks, go to the first two posts and take the time watch the videos of John from Evolv and Dr. Kurt, some great info in these video's. Watch them when you have time to sit back and soak it all in.
Again, this pic below from Mike's second post, see what that says in the circled area? CE4's are exceeding smoking at all power levels! Kurt says this around the 16 minute mark in his video (2nd post here). Don't walk away thinking all vaping is safer then smoking, it is not!! Like Mike says, Its all about temperature!
Agreed, those are components that affect temperature, but "temperature" is the variable that is the link to the production of carcinogens.
Lots of folks link it to POWER, but power & coil, are not the determining variable. The important variable is temperature. Low power devices can create high temperatures.
I'm not sure I would go so Far as to say that this is an Infomercial with the attempt to Eliminate Competition. Or that it is Creative Science.
Because Haven't we Known (or at least Some of use have known) for a Long Time that there was Thermal Breakdown of VG and or PG at Elevated Temperatures?
Not say'n that a Patent Holder isn't going to Benefit from a FDA Regulated Market where the Only PMTA-able e-Cigarette have some form of Limited Atomizer wire Temperature.
But does that mean that we should Not Consider what is Physically/Chemically going on when a Atomizer Wire reaches a certain Temperature?
Yes, I agree, folks that vape in extreme manners expose themselves to much greater risk of harm.
What is extreme? well that's where actual info comes into play.
20+mls per day, 80+w, low resistance, 440+ degrees?
You set your own saftey/risk tolerance using actual info available, I chose to discount what I deem to be unreliable info/data.
All one has to do is research the background of those offering info/data, more than anyone will admit publicly have skin in the game.
IMO, The risk is in the dosage and a few other factors.
I'm quite aware of the ' studies ' & all the participating parties in the Review of health effects / ENDS / info gathering workshop and dozens of other various ' studies and the participants of each of those.
My in depth research into this area has lead me to a different opinion than most seem to have...
Railroad job that even those in the vaping community are jumping on board with, of course join in with the devil or be forced out is a very strong motivator.
To each their own & all.
What is extreme? well that's where actual info comes into play.
20+mls per day, 80+w, low resistance, 440+ degrees?
You set your own saftey/risk tolerance using actual info available, I chose to discount what I deem to be unreliable info/data.
All one has to do is research the background of those offering info/data, more than anyone will admit publicly have skin in the game.
IMO, The risk is in the dosage and a few other factors.
I'm quite aware of the ' studies ' & all the participating parties in the Review of health effects / ENDS / info gathering workshop and dozens of other various ' studies and the participants of each of those.
My in depth research into this area has lead me to a different opinion than most seem to have...
Railroad job that even those in the vaping community are jumping on board with, of course join in with the devil or be forced out is a very strong motivator.
To each their own & all.
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Publish your in-depth research then. I am open to reviewing it.
So far you just sound opinionated.
Oh.
Speaking as a lifelong California resident, I'd sooner trust Evolv in the Great State of Ohio than CDPH. If we're brandishing "Vested Interests", CA.GOV has a huge one in maintaining ecigs as "Taxably Dangerous".
Sorry, but that is my perhaps overly pessimistic opinion. That said, I like the actual study, though I'm still miffed as to why the device-specific elements are still using early-gen test subjects. If nothing else, it gave us real, exact numbers to go by (that we already kind of sort of knew about anyway).
What I really want to see is medical studies that would confirm we're overdosing on Formaldehyde. Not on rats, or chimpanzees, but real people who have suffered ill effects from (giving up smoking and...) vaping. We're 10 years in now. Let's see some documented ill effects.
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Is it the Wire Diameter in Isolation?
Or is Design and Wicking Ability that is the Dominate Factor as to how much Heat can be Exchanged from the Coil to make Vapor?
I have been vaping for almost 5 years and feel better than when I smoked, so I am good. Thats all the research I need, interesting though.
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