New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Katdarling]

But of course I am. I knew you were on your way....

Thanks for all the likies.

Come on, we had fun, didn't we? Oh, the good old days.

Bring back, oh bring back........ Yes, we did! In so many ways...

That WAS fast!

But I think it was 10 Million Posts thread.

Whatevs. Fussy lady.

 

[Katya]

Ooooooooookay. Then I'm truly konfused now.

You don't say.

 

[Katya]

Whatevs. Fussy lady.

I'm not being fussy--I'm hoping for a 20 Million Post thread...

 

[Katdarling]

This MIGHT be it!


And my interlude of pure silliness is now concluded. I have a true sense of kompletion having reached the current end of this thread.

Note to self: page 45.

 

[Katya]

This MIGHT be it!

17,562,107

Just keep posting, doll. We need another massive contest!

 

[Rossum]

So cynical, Rossum, so cynical.

Yep, that's me. Says so right on the label.

<-------

 

[Katya]

Yep, that's me. Says so right on the label.

<-------

Oh yeah! I does say so, indeed. Too funny.

Come to think of it, I have the same label...

 

[soulseek]

If you're not using TC you're increasing exposure or the risk of being exposed to carcinogens towards the end of your puff as the wick dries out; it's even worse if you chain vape.

 

[Zutankhamun]

Well, one could run nothing but mods based on the boards designed by the engineer with the long blonde hair, who last I heard, is not himself a vaper. But I'm skeptical that this is necessary in order to keep aldehyde production at "safe" levels.

Cynical and probably correct. Does nobody else see what Rossum and I see? Indeed, it may be the truth. I think I'll wait and see.
I have never seen such conflicted interests and a biased viewpoint on tc.

Then again, don't hate the player, hate the game

I wonder how many of you are, thinking of, or have actually bought or buying tc devices now?

Covering statement. I suppose he could be correct after all this. When the story is corroborated by independent parties my thoughts may be swayed

 

[Lessifer]

Ooooooooookay. Then I'm truly konfused now.




If—



The elephant in the room, Zee Man. (and my sense tells me the same)

Well, I can't be the only one who noticed that he wasn't just talking up tc, but also their handy built in data mining analytical tools, can I?

 

[Zakillah]

Maybe the aledhydes are a red herring and there's something else that should be looked for that we're just not recognizing as important yet.

Highly unlikely. Just look at the molecules. I have posted a study that fired an old ProTank at 15W (way too high) and they looked what came out. Aldehydes and Ketones, and its no surprise. Now I am not super well knowledgeable in organic chemistry, but again, the chance something is suddenly found that no one knows yet is highly unlikely.

Another thing I wanted to mention, is that E-Liquids don't have an exact boiling point, as they are mixtures of different liquids, and mixtures have boiling intervals. So you get vaporization, but the temperature still can rise, even with a wet wick. That makes max. temperature "guessing" in E-Zigs practically impossible.

I am repeating myself here, but what we need is serious analysis from actual E-Zigs. Different atties, at different power levels and different temperatures.
However, bureaucracy and standard method development is moving way to slowly and cant possibly catch up with the rapid advance of vape gear in the last years. The infinite number of possible variables (mods and atties, PG/VG ratios and flavors, power levels/temperatures, wires, airflow settings, puff duration, puff volume,...) make a standard procedure of analysis essentially impossible.
You´d need expensive equipment, chemists who have at least a basic understanding of vaping and most importantly...someone who has all that and, erm, cares.
BigT could do it, but why would they analyze anything else but their own products?
Unfortunately, I don't really see any big player who would care to do in depth analysis of 3rd gen. devices on a larger scale and with proper equipment.

To close my post of with something a little more cheer able; I think if such in depth analysis is done, interesting as it may be, the knowledge we´d get would still be the same as we do have right now:
EZigs emit trace amounts of Carbonyls. You´re fine if you don't do dryhits.

 

[Lessifer]

Highly unlikely. Just look at the molecules. I have posted a study that fired an old ProTank at 15W (way too high) and they looked what came out. Aldehydes and Ketones, and its no surprise. Now I am not super well knowledgeable in organic chemistry, but again, the chance something is suddenly found that no one knows yet is highly unlikely.

Another thing I wanted to mention, is that E-Liquids don't have an exact boiling point, as they are mixtures of different liquids, and mixtures have boiling intervals. So you get vaporization, but the temperature still can rise, even with a wet wick. That makes max. temperature "guessing" in E-Zigs practically impossible.

I am repeating myself here, but what we need is serious analysis from actual E-Zigs. Different atties, at different power levels and different temperatures.
However, bureaucracy and standard method development is moving way to slowly and cant possibly catch up with the rapid advance of vape gear in the last years. The infinite number of possible variables (mods and atties, PG/VG ratios and flavors, power levels/temperatures, wires, puff duration, puff volume,...) make a standard procedure of analysis essentially impossible.
You´d need expensive equipment, chemists who have at least a basic understanding of vaping and most importantly...someone who has all that and, erm, cares.
BigT could do it, but why would they analyze anything else but their own products?
Unfortunately, I don't really see any big player who would care to do in depth analysis of 3rd gen. devices on a larger scale and with proper equipment.

There are a few companies I could think of that might be able to afford it, besides BT, but one problem would be that any study funded by a vapor company would be automatically discredited in some people's eyes. Really, the NIH should be funding these studies to determine the actual health risks of vaping, but instead they fund surveys to find out that not only are some teens vaping, but they're dripping!

 

[Bonskibon]

I keep checking this thread to see if something gets posted that makes this all click in my head. Not really happening yet. Think I'll take my coffee and vape and go watch some cartoons.

 

[sonicbomb]

Thing is, from a scientific view, once the coil is hot enough, the liquid doesn't really make contact with it, in simple terms, it creates a "floating area" (for lack of better term) where the liquid is absorbing the heat and evaporating at the same rate that it's being pulled away by the airflow. It's basically a "pressure" created by the heat and conversion of the liquid to it's aerosol state. Think of it as a very hot plate where you drop water on it.. the drops will actually not be touching the hot place but are suspended by the steam being produce by the heat radiating. That steam is at 100C and is being released and not going to get hotter unless you'd trap it and expose it to more heat.

This is known as the Leidenfrost effect
Leidenfrost effect - Wikipedia
http://i.imgur.com/WDR8skg.gif
http://i.imgur.com/4wJKk76.gif

I did a test build on my DNA200 using SS using the same coil configuration as my normal regulated kanthal build at 70 watts. I then switched on TC and to get the same vape I had to set 540F. TC produces like any other method of vaping a fairly specific experience. If this experience is to your liking then TC is the way to go. If it isn't then it's not regardless of the perceived benefits.

I abandoned TC after trying it two years ago. I don't run tanks dry and I don't get dry hits on RDAs without the use of a TC, and at the temps I need to be happy TC is essentially irrelevant. As I said in an earlier post I'm not happy that I may be producing some toxins (assuming the testing is correct), but I can deal with it as I know without any doubt that I am reducing my harm level compared to smoking by several orders of magnitude.

Thanks to Mike for bringing this data to our attention.

 

[mikepetro]

So cynical, Rossum, so cynical.

One could do that, of course.

Somehow, I was more excited about TC 2.5 years ago when I first saw Phil's interview with Brandon. Maybe because Brandon is a vaper himself, or maybe because he's a bit more attractive as an advocate of TC.

For those who might be interested, this is the interview that started it all:

And this was my post 1 minute later. We werent allowed to say anything until PB's video went live at midnight that night.

Ok folks, I have been given the go ahead to open my mouth as of midnight. We were all told to wait until Phil Busardo posted his video,

As most of you know, I have been on the Evolv beta Team for this one and I have been testing the unit for several weeks. It has become my "go to" mod without doubt. By dialing in the temp to suit my juice and coil combo, I then get very repeatable hits, and no dry hits ever, even when dripping.

The new DNA40 from Evolv - 40 Watt Variable Power Module with Temperature Protection

Features:

• Input 3.1 to 4.3 volts
• Output 1vdc to 9vdc
• Max input current 16A
• 16A max continuous output current, 23A pulse
• Atty resistance (Kanthal) 0.2Ω to 2.0Ω
• Atty resistance (cold NI200) 0.1Ω to 1.0Ω
• Adjustable from 1 to 40 watts (Buck/Boost)
• Temperature protection adjustable from 200-600 degrees F
• Over/Under Voltage protection
• Over current protection
• Reverse polarity protection (finally)
• Battery monitoring with "soft limiting"
• New detachable side rails with screw holes for easy mounting.

The new DNA40 has all of the safety features of the previous DNA30 and finally adds reverse battery polarity protection to the mix! It also now has a “buck” circuit and can regulate as low as you want to go, down to 1 watt.

The big new feature though is “Temperature Limiting”. Yeah, I know..... "Why do I want it?"

Temp protection adds several nice characteristics.

1. You will never get a dry hit.
   • By limiting temperature, as your wick gets dry the coil will heat up and the Temp Protection will throttle back the watts to keep from overheating, consequently no dry hits, just weak “nothing” hits to let you know you need juice.
2. You will not burn your sensitive wicks nearly as easily, imagine cotton lasting for weeks.
   • If you set your temp below the melting/burning/deterioration point of your wick material, it wont burn.
3. You can optimize the experience according to the juice you are vaping.
   • Different juices, ratios of PG/VG, even flavorings and sweeteners etc vaporize at different temperatures. Heat them up beyond their vaporization point and you are cooking/caramelizing/burning/scorching them.
   • In a traditional VV/VW build you could potentially heat your PG/VG up to the point where it decomposed and creates toxins. This gives you the ability to stay well below those thresholds.
4. Your hit will be the same from the first second until the last!
   • Whether you pause your draw, hit harder, hit longer, the Temp Protection will keep the heat the same throughout your entire hit. More airflow across the coil cools it and the board allows more watts, a pause slows the airflow and the board cuts back the wattage.
   
   

In order to use Temp Protection you need to use NI200 (nickel) wire.
Commonly available at Temco,, some of you may know this as "non-resistance" wire used in some attys like the Ithika etc.

The reason it works is that NI200 has a known "temperature coefficient". In other words the coil resistance changes with temperature as the coil heats up. This relationship is known and well documented. The DNA40 constantly monitors the resistance while you fire and can then accurately calculate the temperature.

You can still use your old Kanthal builds, but you wont have the Temp Protection feature. The board will automatically sense whether you are using Kanthal or NI200.

Some other "good to know" things.

• You need a battery capable of 16A continuous
• If you remove the mounting rails it has the exact same footprint as the DNA30, the buttons are also in the exact same location.
• The locations for the Up/Down/Fire button wires to hook up to the board have changed. All six button terminals are across the top of the board now.
• If you are accustomed to snipping off the fire button to save space, you will have to do things differently now. One option is to cut the button off as before then solder 2 jumper wires onto the board. The other option is to just pop the top cover off the switch, removing the button but leaving the base. The reason is because there are 4 terminals on that switch, 2 terminals on each side of the switch are by default an electrical short or path. The board uses this path, so if you totally remove the switch you are breaking the circuit.
• The mounting rails just snap off, but if you leave them on, there are 4 nice holes that you can put screws through to mount the board.
• Because the NI200 wire changes resistance as it gets hotter, if you fired the atty then removed it to refill or whatever, when you put it back on the coil is still hotter than normal. This means that the resistance will be higher and it would throw the boards calculations off. Consequently the board will ask you if it is a new coil or the same old coil. It remembers the last coil resistance (read on insertion of an atty at room temp) which is what is always displayed since the actual resistance is always changing as it heats and cools.

My personal experience has been very positive. I never liked drippers before because of the inevitable dry hit, but with this, you dont get them. It actually allowed me to warm up to drippers for the first time (well.... the Taifun dripper and S.O.D. atty helped). I tried a number of different attys, resistances, gauges of NI200, and coil types. What I saw is at 35-40w and 420ish degrees, the watts will start out high then quickly taper down as you achieve temp, the hit however was consistent from start to finish. The board was reliable, I had no issues whatsoever, however a few beta testers did encounter the 0 ohm issue that has been seen on the DNA20/30s as well. Disconnecting the battery to reset the board resolves this.

The official Spec Sheet:
http://evolvapor.com/datasheet/dna40.pdf

Check out Phil Busardo's video, it's about an hour long and has a good interview with Brandon from Evolv talking all about this new board and lots of info I may have missed.

 

[Katya]

And this was my post 1 minute later. We werent allowed to say anything until PB's video went live at midnight that night.

I didn't know that. But I've been reading your posts on the subject for quite a while. I'm also a fan of KTM's Evolv-ing thread. Lots of information and great pictures. I don't always post or otherwise make my presence known if I have little to add to the discussion, but I do follow and learn anyway.

So yes, I was very excited about TC after that interview; I truly believed TC to be a possible game changer, just like VV and then VW mods were, but I quickly realized that there were all kinds of problems with this new technology. So I decided to watch and wait for improvements.

Still waiting, but things are looking up.

 

[Bonskibon]

So I did a build of SS 316l the same way I build my kanthal coils with the only difference being the ohms. Put it on my Pico and fired it at 420F and it burnt the coil and the juice with just a few seconds hit on the fire button. I saw the coil through the Toptank RBA glow red with the tank full of juice and all. I have NO idea what I'm doing on TC mode I couldn't find a way to change the wattage so it was at 75w which is way to hot, but thought that didn't matter? Anyways, done for today. I need to learn how to use TC mode on my device. This is why I don't use it. I don't like it, and have no idea what I'm doing. Just thought I would do a quick comparison to see if I'm in a safe vaping threshold with my kanthal coils in wattage mod, but my experiment didn't go so well.

 

[mikepetro]

I didn't know that. But I've been reading your posts on the subject for quite a while. I'm also a fan of KTM's Evolv-ing thread. Lots of information and great pictures. I don't always post or otherwise make my presence known if I have little to add to the discussion, but I do follow and learn anyway.

So yes, I was very excited about TC after that interview; I truly believed TC to be a possible game changer, just like VV and then VW mods were, but I quickly realized that there were all kinds of problems with this new technology. So I decided to watch and wait for improvements.

Still waiting, but things are looking up.

Most of the "problems" come from folks who are pushing the envelope. Beyond that, the biggest issue is that you must have an atty with stable resistance, many arent. But if you have a good atty and build a mainstream TC coil, you are not likely to encounter a lot of problems.

 

[mikepetro]

So I did a build of SS 316l the same way I build my kanthal coils with the only difference being the ohms. Put it on my Pico and fired it at 420F and it burnt the coil and the juice with just a few seconds hit on the fire button. I saw the coil through the Toptank RBA glow red with the tank full of juice and all. I have NO idea what I'm doing on TC mode I couldn't find a way to change the wattage so it was at 75w which is way to hot, but thought that didn't matter? Anyways, done for today. I need to learn how to use TC mode on my device. This is why I don't use it. I don't like it, and have no idea what I'm doing. Just thought I would do a quick comparison to see if I'm in a safe vaping threshold with my kanthal coils in wattage mod, but my experiment didn't go so well.

That almost sounds like it could have been a hot leg. Make sure your coils arent touching. With TC touching coils is a bad thing.

 

[cigatron]

They're not quite interchangeable, but they're closer together and 316 setting you can probably use 316L and just offset your temp. I'm not sure you could do that with 430 bc it has a lot higher TFR range.

Use whatever guage you like for kanthal, but space them.

Can someone please explain to me why all mods, particularly new ones coming out still have nickel and stainless 316? Ti I understand but does anyone actually use those? Theyre both awful in separate ways, SS316 is horribly inaccurate and nickel is very soft and taste like dirty coins... & all 3 shouldn't be dry burned unlike many of the better TC wires. Wouldn't it be more helpful to have NiFe52, Ti and SS 430 or at least 316L as the defaults? On my DNA's Ive deleted all of that other nonsense.

Yes, Yes and yes.