New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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I stop. 
Well, here we are one week into the thread, and 93 pages so far. Clearly this is a hot topic.
First, just for some clarification. This data, and this discussion, is not a scare tactic, it is not doom and gloom for vaping, it does not mean that you should be scared of your current vape gear. Vaping is better, safer, than smoking, period! Don’t let any of this speculation (and that’s all it really is right now) scare you off of vaping.
This topic is just to get people thinking about the way they vape, to consider the possibility that there may be some things we can do make our vape even safer. Remember, this is all about “harm reduction”. I am a firm believer that inhaling anything other than clean fresh air is likely to cause some level of harm. I don’t think anyone can say that vaping doesn’t, it is just magnitudes less harmful than smoking. Now, if we can reduce that harm even further, then why not?
This Wang data was interesting to me precisely because it was “device independent”. They heated up PG and VG to see when nasties started to appear. They found that at certain temps, nasties do indeed appear. OK, so temperature matters, or at least Wang says it does. Heat sugar up to a certain temp and it caramelizes, heat water up to a certain temp and it turns to steam. So I believe its possible that PG/VG can indeed degrade to the point of nasties when heated enough. It makes sense, at least to me.
At that point I couldn’t help but ask if nasties are in my vape.
Having used TC for several years, and personally being confident in the tech, I know that my own coils have been in the temperature ranges cited by Wang. I am pretty confident my coils can get (and have gotten) that hot, what I don’t know is if the juice is getting that hot. It simply raises some good questions.
Now, since I can control my coil temp, I choose to lower my temps down to 440F to avoid any potential unnecessary risks until these questions can be answered.
In the big scheme of things, this is only a nuance in terms of the risk as compared to smoking. But as a vapor, I am always looking for a better, safer, vape. Hence I pay attention to battery safety, I pay attention to what additives I put in my juice, I pay attention to what metals and fibers I use in my wicks, and I am open to reading new research when it is presented.
Don’t let this topic scare you, its not all of that, but asking questions is good.
First, just for some clarification. This data, and this discussion, is not a scare tactic, it is not doom and gloom for vaping, it does not mean that you should be scared of your current vape gear. Vaping is better, safer, than smoking, period! Don’t let any of this speculation (and that’s all it really is right now) scare you off of vaping.
This topic is just to get people thinking about the way they vape, to consider the possibility that there may be some things we can do make our vape even safer. Remember, this is all about “harm reduction”. I am a firm believer that inhaling anything other than clean fresh air is likely to cause some level of harm. I don’t think anyone can say that vaping doesn’t, it is just magnitudes less harmful than smoking. Now, if we can reduce that harm even further, then why not?
This Wang data was interesting to me precisely because it was “device independent”. They heated up PG and VG to see when nasties started to appear. They found that at certain temps, nasties do indeed appear. OK, so temperature matters, or at least Wang says it does. Heat sugar up to a certain temp and it caramelizes, heat water up to a certain temp and it turns to steam. So I believe its possible that PG/VG can indeed degrade to the point of nasties when heated enough. It makes sense, at least to me.
At that point I couldn’t help but ask if nasties are in my vape.
Having used TC for several years, and personally being confident in the tech, I know that my own coils have been in the temperature ranges cited by Wang. I am pretty confident my coils can get (and have gotten) that hot, what I don’t know is if the juice is getting that hot. It simply raises some good questions.
Now, since I can control my coil temp, I choose to lower my temps down to 440F to avoid any potential unnecessary risks until these questions can be answered.
In the big scheme of things, this is only a nuance in terms of the risk as compared to smoking. But as a vapor, I am always looking for a better, safer, vape. Hence I pay attention to battery safety, I pay attention to what additives I put in my juice, I pay attention to what metals and fibers I use in my wicks, and I am open to reading new research when it is presented.
Don’t let this topic scare you, its not all of that, but asking questions is good.
So while using 100% VG we notice:
We do know that temperature matters and harm REDUCTION (as compared to smoking) matters. At least to me it does. YMMV.
(disclaimer: posted by a long time mostly exclusive TC user)
- a usable amount of vapor is available long before reaching the boiling point. This could be due to A) the VG sample is not 100% pure (likely) or B) liquids can give off vapor lower than the boiling point (quite possible) or C) somewhere on the coil it is VG boiling point temperature. (might be)
- Changing the coil temperature effects the volume of vapor produced. Lower=less, higher=more.
- Setting our TC device to the theory boiling point gives off very little vapor.
- Much like above, higher=more and lower=less vapor production
- effective coil/wick diameter decrease due to the heat 'reaching into' the wick to vaporize juice
- while #1 might be true the decreased diameter actually creates a vaporizing 'zone' which has a larger area than the coil<>juice interface hence more area more vapor
We do know that temperature matters and harm REDUCTION (as compared to smoking) matters. At least to me it does. YMMV.
(disclaimer: posted by a long time mostly exclusive TC user)
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Where does this leave me in relation to the pre-boost feature i regurlarly use on my P3 ?
Think i'll disable it for the time being.
This whole subject is not causing me undue concern but i am finding it interesting. With what i've read so far i have come to the conclusion that there is no definitive proof that high temperature vaping is worse than any other type of vaping. BUT a certain temperature when heating e-liquid ingredients can lead to the release of nasty stuff.
Until someone correlates what's happening in an atty to the experiment results we have been provided then everything here is conjecture.
Again, though. I think i'll disable the pre-boost !
Think i'll disable it for the time being.
This whole subject is not causing me undue concern but i am finding it interesting. With what i've read so far i have come to the conclusion that there is no definitive proof that high temperature vaping is worse than any other type of vaping. BUT a certain temperature when heating e-liquid ingredients can lead to the release of nasty stuff.
Until someone correlates what's happening in an atty to the experiment results we have been provided then everything here is conjecture.
Again, though. I think i'll disable the pre-boost !
I like this post Too much! I have done this so many times, or just forgot to open the JFC.
Instead of that nasty dry hit, I got a weekend hit & realized what I had done wrong.
I'll admit that this thread gave me pause at first. Enough so that I went off and started looking at temp control devices to purchase. Then I thought about it for awhile and decided not to purchase any more mods. I've been vaping for almost 6 1/2 years, mostly mechs and VV, and after 33 years of smoking I feel remarkably better than I did at the end of that 33 year time frame of smoking. And since I'm at the further end of my lifespan anyway it's just not as much of a concern to me as it might be to a 30 year old.
I remembered from an old anatomy and physiology class I took that our bodies naturally produce formaldehyde. So my question is what does elevated intake actually do to you? I looked around for a bit and it seems that elevated exposure might be linked to nasopharyngeal cancer and leukemia. Nasopharyngeal cancer is fairly rare(<1 case for every 100,000 people) and there doesn't seem to be an uptick of it. I doubt that anyone has started compiling statistics correlating vaping with leukemia or we would have heard about that one by now.But I would think since e-cigs have been on the market for around 10 years now that would be long enough for some of the more genetically susceptible folks to have started coming down with these diseases. Maybe? And then there's a laundry list of irritation symptoms: coughing, watery eyes, wheezing, nausea, etc. But some people are very sensitive to it and have those reactions while it doesn't bother other people at all. I couldn't really find anything on acetaldehyde inhalation but did find some stuff linking it to an increased risk of cancer for chronic drinkers and that it is also found in some foods we eat.
And I'm certainly not saying any of this is gospel,or that's the only danger in formaldehyde,or that it's safe enough. It's just what I found rummaging around on the net while I was trying to decide whether or not to buy a TC device.
It may be irrefutably proven at some point in time that TC is the safest way to vape. But I'm firmly convinced by my own changes in health that any vaping is safer than smoking.
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Zoidman, that's a very kind gesture, but it isn't necessary. After all, I do know how to wind a coil, and I want to be able to do these things for myself. Besides, I don't mind the winding so much as the installation, just a fiddly thing.
Right now I'm using a Kayfun mini V3 Tobeco clone atomizer atop a Provari set at 10.3 watts. I can go lower, but don't really care to go above 10.5 watts. Kanthal A1, 28AWG, 7/8 wraps, comes out to about 1.7 ohms. I'm guessing I just wind the SS coil the same way? So then, when I get that same size coil installed, I can vape it on TC or VW just by switching the Pico settings?
What I don't know is what kind of SS to get. 316L? 4...something? Others? Is one "safer" than the rest? Does one perform better than the rest? I do realize some have chromium, nickel, etc., so I don't know which to get. Should it come from Temco or Unkamen, or does that matter? I know nothing at all about SS (except skillets, lol). Does it need to be annealed first? Installed and heated to a glow? I guess I'm just making this hard in my own mind, but it's something I'm not familiar with.
Thanks for the coil offer anyway, Zoidman.
Zoidman, that's a very kind gesture, but it isn't necessary. After all, I do know how to wind a coil, and I want to be able to do these things for myself. Besides, I don't mind the winding so much as the installation, just a fiddly thing.
Right now I'm using a Kayfun mini V3 Tobeco clone atomizer atop a Provari set at 10.3 watts. I can go lower, but don't really care to go above 10.5 watts. Kanthal A1, 28AWG, 7/8 wraps, comes out to about 1.7 ohms. I'm guessing I just wind the SS coil the same way? So then, when I get that same size coil installed, I can vape it on TC or VW just by switching the Pico settings?
What I don't know is what kind of SS to get. 316L? 4...something? Others? Is one "safer" than the rest? Does one perform better than the rest? I do realize some have chromium, nickel, etc., so I don't know which to get. Should it come from Temco or Unkamen, or does that matter? I know nothing at all about SS (except skillets, lol). Does it need to be annealed first? Installed and heated to a glow? I guess I'm just making this hard in my own mind, but it's something I'm not familiar with.
Thanks for the coil offer anyway, Zoidman.
If you want to try TC, it's not a big transition to make. First, coil wire. 316L is very popular, affordable, and performs well in most mods that can perform TC. Some mods are better at TC than others, but the Pico is reportedly OK (I have a few but never tried them in TC, only power mode so I can't personally vouch.
SS 316L has a lower resistivity than Kanthal. Your 28G Kanthal build would come in about half with SS (don't know your coil ID). However with TC, the resistance doesn't matter so long as it's within the specified range your mod will operate. So a 28G 316L 8 wrap 2.5 mm ID would read 0.8 ohm, which is fine.
You coil the same way as Kanthal. You do not have to torch it first. Mount on your build deck and tweak accordingly. Spaced coils are a good way to start out. Gently pulse the coil to assure even heating and no hot spots.No need to make it glow, and you're not trying to produce an Alumina layer like you do with Kanthal. Wick as normal. Done except for settings.
Before getting into all sorts of dry burn tests and stuff, just start out looking for a decent vape. I would start out with that build with a power level of 25W in TC mode (the max the mod will apply to reach the temp you choose and will not be exceeded) and maybe 350F for temp. Vape and raise the temp accordingly. When you reach your personal sweet spot you're done.
The only difference especially when building your own is really in losing the "I have to have x.xx ohms" and making sure your mode is properly set up for the metal type you're using (SS in this case, or if you want to get fancy go into the special "memory" mode and set a TCR of 92, the typical number used) set a max wattage, then just adjust the temp to your preference. That is all there is to it. If something doesn't work right, head on over with questions.
Until in depth studies are done, any of the SS alloys currently available will work and should be safe. I'd suggest SS316L since that is the TCR profile generally used by mod manufacturers, apparently. I use Temco 316L and it doesn't need to be cleaned, tempered, dry burned or anything else. It winds quite nicely so making a coil is as easy as kanthal. I would say that dry burning the coil may not be a good idea, but that is pure conjecture on my part. I will also say that with the low cost of wire, and how easy it is to make a coil and install it, the trouble of trying to clean, really clean, a dry burned coil just isn't worth that work.
I know yours is a different tank, but I did an experiment with 28g SS wire, 8 wraps with 12watts and 360F in a Toptank RBA in TC mode and it vaped just fine for me. I usually build 28g kanthal with 8wraps on my VW device with the Toptank RBA.
That's what I didn't get a first. I thought that because of the ohm difference, I'd have to start sub-ohming. Learned so much in this thread. I've heard people say ohms doesn't really matter in a regulated device, and starting to understand that now.
Like everything else with vaping, dry burning SS, or even Kanthal by some people might not be good to do. OTOH, I've not seen a ton of reproducible data to show nasties coming off. The melting point of 316L is quite a bit higher than I would reasonably go to under normal conditions, including dry burning. I rinse my coils of obvious junk. I gently pulse the coil, never letting it look like a lightbulb, just a gently glow. Rerinse, dry off, recheck resistance (to avoid any issue with connections after manipulations, wick, wet, recheck resistance, place in on whatever to the tank, recheck resistance (no touching the chamber sides) fill and vape.
I get an average of 3 months out of my SS Claptons that way, cleaning once a week (if I'm not being lazy). I do use my own juice, and while my flavorings are usually ~10%, I rarely if ever use extra sweeteners which are known to gunk coils.
This has been a very interesting thread I have learned a lot. Thanks Mike.
I still have many questions as well as others probably do. I believe threads like these are helping the vaping community, rather than hurt it. Even if we don't figure out the "safer" temp to vape by tomorrow, I have learned a lot about the properties of vg/pg , different wire to use (430ss), TC, and much more. By posting our observations and home tests many questions get answered to those just reading the forum. When I post an (experiment), really just an observation and that's what I've been calling them, I expect people to Politely chime in with there ideas and point out things that I might have done right or wrong or add additional questions to that situation. That's how we all learn more in this forum. Think about it how many times have you seen a post with something that just didn't quite add up (could be any thread about anything ), you were not totally positive enough to just state it without back up facts so you look it up on the internet get factual info then posted it. Not only you but others have learned a bit more.
That's how we all learn on this site.
I didn't know all of that thanks Katya.
I still have many questions as well as others probably do. I believe threads like these are helping the vaping community, rather than hurt it. Even if we don't figure out the "safer" temp to vape by tomorrow, I have learned a lot about the properties of vg/pg , different wire to use (430ss), TC, and much more. By posting our observations and home tests many questions get answered to those just reading the forum. When I post an (experiment), really just an observation and that's what I've been calling them, I expect people to Politely chime in with there ideas and point out things that I might have done right or wrong or add additional questions to that situation. That's how we all learn more in this forum. Think about it how many times have you seen a post with something that just didn't quite add up (could be any thread about anything ), you were not totally positive enough to just state it without back up facts so you look it up on the internet get factual info then posted it. Not only you but others have learned a bit more.
That's how we all learn on this site.
I didn't know all of that thanks Katya.
First of all, this industry has been self regulating from its inception just fine, thank you very much. Thanks to this self-regulation, via discussions like this one and many, many others, vaping is much better and safer than it was in 2007 when it first began commercially available. Nobody was looking out for us and our safety--we had to do it ourselves. And yet, every time somebody brings up a subject of a possible danger associated with vaping, sooner or later they are inevitably attacked for "doing FDA's job for them" or spreading "BT/BP propaganda." Can we just stop doing this? Once and for all. In 2009 Kate raised some questions about diacetyl, later confirmed by Kurt and others. Kurt warned us about risks associated with vaping eliquids containing cinnamaldehyde, oil based flavorings and some questionable sweeteners. Mooch tests batteries and lets us know which ones are safe to use. We discussed the use of crystalline silica as filler in certain coil heads (gone), iffy plastics used for tanks (gone or replaced with better plastics and glass), mod safety (believe it or not, some early mods were made without venting holes--fixed). I could go on, but I hope you get the picture.
Most (if not all) of the great improvements and inventions in vaping started on ECF and other vaping forums all over the world. Big Chinese manufacturers learn from our modders and incorporate their ideas into their products all the time. Everything you're using today was invented either on this forum (or similar forums in Germany, Greece, Russia, England, etc.) by fellow vapers who were not satisfied with the hardware they were using and were hell bent on creating that perfect vape. Carto tanks (thanks, Billy), fillerless clearomizers (thanks Badkolo, Billy, Martinez), RBAs (thanks Raidy--Raidy is a German modder who was also a member here; Imeothanasis--a greek modder; and thank you, our Russian friends for Kayfun and ArcticFox), variable voltage and variable wattage batteries (thank you, modders, inventors, Evolv, ProVape), and now the DNA 40, 60, 75. Why do you think China switched from silica rope to cotton? Because our modders and vapers who use RBAs have been experimenting with different wicking materials--everything from stainless steel mesh, silica rope, ecowool, hemp, alpaca wool, cotton balls, rayon (cellucotton) to Japanese organic cotton.
We didn't know much, but we asked questions, we contacted people who did know--our resident chemists and materials engineers and electricians. Many commercial juice makers started here, as fellow ECF rank and file DIY enthusiasts. And we enlisted real experts, like our favorite cardiologist Dr. F., who is also a member here.
Still have doubts? Behold a carto tank prototype invented in 2010 by our beloved friend Billy (BR5495), may he rest in peace.
Off my soapbox now. Sorry for the rant.
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Fun ideas there. I have no idea if you are right. What I got from this post is that at this point in time we don't have much idea how our gear actually creates vapor, which is kind of odd when you think about it. I thought I knew the answer. It's simple, the coil heats up the juice and it vaporizes. And that bad taste you get when you turn the watts up a little too high? I thought it was just a burnt taste, maybe it's formaldehyde. Etc.
I'm glad this thread happened. We may not have figured out all the answers, but I know more about how vaping works than I knew before. Even if it's more questions than answers, and new areas to look into. Knowing more is good, right?
Not everyone will be interested in digging into the weeds, which is fine too.
Zoidman, that's a very kind gesture, but it isn't necessary. After all, I do know how to wind a coil, and I want to be able to do these things for myself. Besides, I don't mind the winding so much as the installation, just a fiddly thing.
Right now I'm using a Kayfun mini V3 Tobeco clone atomizer atop a Provari set at 10.3 watts. I can go lower, but don't really care to go above 10.5 watts. Kanthal A1, 28AWG, 7/8 wraps, comes out to about 1.7 ohms. I'm guessing I just wind the SS coil the same way? So then, when I get that same size coil installed, I can vape it on TC or VW just by switching the Pico settings?
What I don't know is what kind of SS to get. 316L? 4...something? Others? Is one "safer" than the rest? Does one perform better than the rest? I do realize some have chromium, nickel, etc., so I don't know which to get. Should it come from Temco or Unkamen, or does that matter? I know nothing at all about SS (except skillets, lol). Does it need to be annealed first? Installed and heated to a glow? I guess I'm just making this hard in my own mind, but it's something I'm not familiar with.
Thanks for the coil offer anyway, Zoidman.
Hey no problem Just. I thought you were doing your own coils Now, but wasn't 100% sure.
As for what SS Wire to buy and how to build it? I would suggest getting SS316L 28ga. And then build it the same way you are building with your Kanthal A1 with 7/8 wraps. And then doing the Same procedures you do with your Kanthal A1.
TEMco is a Good Manufacture of Wire.
https://www.amazon.com/TEMCo-Stainless-Steel-Wire-316L/dp/B01EM8UMMG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489506624&sr=8-1&keywords=TEMco+28+awg+wire+stainless&th=1
7/8 Wraps of 28ga 316L with a 3mm ID comes out to about 0.8 Ohms
Coil wrapping
0.8 Ohms may seem Low compared to what you are using, but for SS it really Isn't.
You might like 26ga better than 28ga? It's hard to say. But you have to start somewhere.
I would then Run this SS build in your Pico using the default settings for SS Mode. Maybe set the Temp Limit to start at 380F and then adjust your Wattage ( 4 Clicks when in Temp Mode on the Pico ) to what you like.
If it seems like the Hit doesn't get 'Hot" enough, you can Bump up the TC Temp. Or if the Hit seems to get to "Hot", you can Lower the TC Temp.
I think after you do a SS Build and try some Temps/Wattages on your Pico you will find that there Isn't anything all that different about Building with SS. Or running your SS build in TC Mode.
And you can Also switch Back n' Forth between Power Mode (VW) and TC Mode to compare how they Taste.
I haven't read to the end yet, but something occurs to me here........they did these test "simulating vaping conditions" in the ss tube....by heating the liquids to these various temperature ranges......but...this is the big BUT. We aren't really vaping the LIQUID at these temperatures, the coil reaches that temp....what is the actual temperature of the liquid/vapor? I guarantee we aren't really inhaling 450 degree vapor. I would like a study to figure out what the ACTUAL real world use devices produce in these toxins. Every independent study I have seen that has done this, has found far less of these toxins then in cigarettes...you know the ones, where they place sensors IN THE ROOM WITH ACTUAL VAPERS.....something about this whole thing smells "off" to me.
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