New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Thanks for doing and sharing all this work Mike. Very much appreciated
I'm feeling better and better about my 1% VG juice
When you opened up this thread it led me to ask many questions about both the studies and my style of vaping. I now understand more than what those studies offered and it is information we needed now, not after waiting a couple years for more formal studies.
Thanks for staying curious and walking the walk Mike!
Very well put 440BB.
Threads like this make a Contribution to Collective e-Cigarette Knowledge Base.
This was an excellent test Mike. Although subjective, what you added to curves I've seen (and included in your blog) showing boiling points of various mixes is your observation of vape quality, which is important to us vapers.
Oh, and I do believe the Wang study - I believe it applies to juice temperatures, but not coil temperatures, which of course is true, since they didn't test vaping devices. Vaping devices can also release some level of aldehydes (very low levels orders of magnitude below cigarettes for quality devices like the Nautilus and Subtank mini at reasonable power levels) other studies have shown. Based on the published curves, mirrored by your own testing, the biggest benefit I can see in your data (which includes published curves) is for folks to be able to clearly see what mixes are going to be safest to vape. Yes, coil temperature is a a factor, but the temperature at which your juice vaporizes is a big factor easily controlled, and choosing a mix that vaporizes well at lower temperatures is the way to go in my opinion, especially if you vape power or voltage control or use a mechanical mod. Even with temperature control with high VG you're pushing it at higher temps, so adding water makes sense if you DIY high VG or ensure your store bought VG juice has water in it if you can find out.
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I just found this new study which compares Blu ecigs to what they are calling a "second generation" device (lol), the EVOD 2 with a 1.5 ohm coil (dual coil I believe from Googling it, though they don't say it). It shows the EVOD 2 releasing much higher aldehydes and other stuff than the Blu, even at the same voltage (3.7v).
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsomega.6b00489
What I find interesting (and fair) is that in Table 2 they include a traditional cigarette for comparison.
Aldehyde Detection in Electronic Cigarette Aerosols
EC01-03 are Blu various flavors, EL01-EL06 are the Evod 2 with various store juices.
If the EVOD 2 is 1.5 ohm dual coil, then each coil must be 3 ohms, and therefore very small diameter wire, and thus I suspect runs at much higher temperatures than my typical devices. This is consistent with the study that showed the CE4 giving off high levels of aldehydes compared to the Nautilus and Kanger Subtank Mini. My takeaway from these type studies of actual devices is that tiny wires lead to higher temperatures and thus higher levels of aldehydes. Note in Table 2 however, that even the EVOD 2 devices produce less aldehydes than traditional cigarettes.
Update: Thinking further, the Blu likely has a smaller wire than my typical tanks, though not likely as small as the 1.5 ohm dual coil EVOD 2, so there could be other factors involved as well, perhaps the juices, whether or not the Blu puts out the full 3.7V or is limited or regulated, PG/VG ratio, etc.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsomega.6b00489
What I find interesting (and fair) is that in Table 2 they include a traditional cigarette for comparison.
Aldehyde Detection in Electronic Cigarette Aerosols
EC01-03 are Blu various flavors, EL01-EL06 are the Evod 2 with various store juices.
If the EVOD 2 is 1.5 ohm dual coil, then each coil must be 3 ohms, and therefore very small diameter wire, and thus I suspect runs at much higher temperatures than my typical devices. This is consistent with the study that showed the CE4 giving off high levels of aldehydes compared to the Nautilus and Kanger Subtank Mini. My takeaway from these type studies of actual devices is that tiny wires lead to higher temperatures and thus higher levels of aldehydes. Note in Table 2 however, that even the EVOD 2 devices produce less aldehydes than traditional cigarettes.
Update: Thinking further, the Blu likely has a smaller wire than my typical tanks, though not likely as small as the 1.5 ohm dual coil EVOD 2, so there could be other factors involved as well, perhaps the juices, whether or not the Blu puts out the full 3.7V or is limited or regulated, PG/VG ratio, etc.
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I ran Evods for a while. I found them a notch above the CE4s because they were bottom coils and didnt have the dry hit issue as often. But yes, it was very fine wire, and tiny wire can get really hot if not on a TC device.
Makes me wonder about the pod mods, most of them have small gauge wire, but I do know that several of them (like the Juul) somehow limit temperature.
Makes me wonder about the pod mods, most of them have small gauge wire, but I do know that several of them (like the Juul) somehow limit temperature.
I have several old EVODs on my desk as well, but not the newer dual coils. I wondered the same thing about my Myjet pods, from what i can tell they are 31AWG Nichrome 80, not the 28 AWG kanthal some sites state. yet with my short puffs, the vapor is not very warm, so I do not believe thee coils are reaching high temperatures. No way I can chain vape these either, with high nicotine nic salts, only takes a few puffs to be satisfied. The cotton wicks help to keep the coil wet, and I'm vaping 80pg/20vg DIY, so I vape them with no fear. There's no comparison of any pod mod I've tried to those ratty EVODs which in my opinion burned ejoice at very warm temps. I would worry more about those vaping high VG at 40W and higher even with big wire
I look forward to tests of more devices including pods and DL tanks and coils. If I was a betting man, and as you know by now I am, I would bet that I am getting far less adehydes on my pods at 1 ml a day, 2 second MTL puffs, 80pg/20vg (also vape another 1 mil in a tank, for a total of 2 ml), than someone chunking high VG high power clouds at 10 to 30 ml a day.
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I just wonder when I read a Study showing Elevated levels of Formaldehyde if the user would stop Vaping because they were getting a Dry Hit?
"Similar results of dramatic increases in
acetaldehyde, acrolein, and formaldehyde with increasing
vaping power output to 9 and 10 W have been reported.36
High battery power output results in overheating of the coil and
leads to excessive aldehyde generation by thermal decomposition
of humectants (“dry puff” condition)."
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acsomega.6b00489
Or if some of these Elevated levels are within what a what an Average Vaper would consider to be a Normal Hit?
"Similar results of dramatic increases in
acetaldehyde, acrolein, and formaldehyde with increasing
vaping power output to 9 and 10 W have been reported.36
High battery power output results in overheating of the coil and
leads to excessive aldehyde generation by thermal decomposition
of humectants (“dry puff” condition)."
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acsomega.6b00489
Or if some of these Elevated levels are within what a what an Average Vaper would consider to be a Normal Hit?
My own experience is that I could taste "badness" above 500F with any concentration of a vg juice. And not in a dry hit situation, the wick was moist.
What I could NOT taste was the start of the "nasties" curve between 410F and 500F. (yellow)
In other words, I could taste it when there is a lot, but not when its only a little.
50/50 PG/VG
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Well in some of those tests, they ran the EVOD 2 up to 5V! Talk about burnt hits, no way anyone would ever vape an EVOD at 16.7 Watts, lol. That's why I only referenced the comparison Table 2 with the EVOD 2 at 3.7V.
I think you're right on that Mike. I doubt that our taste receptors can detect aldehydes or other such constituents at low levels where they are just beginning to be formed (lower temps). What I do believe we can detect, no Temp control needed, are whether our vapor is cool, warm, very warm or hot. And that's where you would find a correlation perhaps to what is not a good place to vape regarding aldehyde formation. Though that correlation might be more detectable for MTL vaping at low air flow, since high air flow DL cools the vapor more.
See that's the thing.
If the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute (NHLBI) and or FDA Center for Tobacco Products is willing to give me Grant Money, I am Sure I can give them Results that show High Levels of Formaldehyde in just about Any Atomizer.
But I Question whether a Vaper would continue to take those Hits? Are these the type of Hits that people take?
And if you let a Person Inhale what is going into the Testing Apparatus, would they perceive the Hit to be Normal?
Also note, that even in a 100% vg juice, I still did NOT taste nasties until it hit 505F.
So I wonder if it is the Acrolein that I was actually tasting. Pure VG didnt taste "bad" below 500 but the Formaldehyde starts spiking at 410F.
This is pure VG
So I wonder if it is the Acrolein that I was actually tasting. Pure VG didnt taste "bad" below 500 but the Formaldehyde starts spiking at 410F.
This is pure VG
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Oh I would love to see tests where a person is actually vaping the device, and the vapor is being sampled for analysis, and the person vaping provides his input as to the vape quality.
Yeah... I think there is a Grey Area where Formaldehyde levels are increasing, but the user may consider it to be within a Norm.
Quantify it may be Difficult on the Individual User/Hardware Level.
Yeah... And at What Levels does the Average Person start to Taste it?
Especially in a Heavily Favored/Sweetened e-Liquid?
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