New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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2016 and the idiots are still using CE4s for their tests.....
Nonetheless, their conclusions below hit the mark IMHO. The last part is talking about dirty coils.
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Emissions from Electronic Cigarettes: Key Parameters Affecting the Release of Harmful Chemicals. Available from: Emissions from Electronic Cigarettes: Key Parameters Affecting the Release of Harmful Chemicals (PDF Download Available)
Various design and operating parameters have
significant effects on emission levels of toxic compounds,
including the choice of the vaporizer and the battery power
output, both of which determine the coil and vapor
temperatures. Since harmful chemical emissions are primarily
due to thermal decomposition of e-liquid constituents, reducing
these temperatures is a promising approach to limiting the
harm caused by e-cigarettes.
Proper maintenance or more frequent replacement of coils may also reduce emissions by
avoiding accumulation of polymeric residue.
Nonetheless, their conclusions below hit the mark IMHO. The last part is talking about dirty coils.
*************************************************************
Emissions from Electronic Cigarettes: Key Parameters Affecting the Release of Harmful Chemicals. Available from: Emissions from Electronic Cigarettes: Key Parameters Affecting the Release of Harmful Chemicals (PDF Download Available)
Various design and operating parameters have
significant effects on emission levels of toxic compounds,
including the choice of the vaporizer and the battery power
output, both of which determine the coil and vapor
temperatures. Since harmful chemical emissions are primarily
due to thermal decomposition of e-liquid constituents, reducing
these temperatures is a promising approach to limiting the
harm caused by e-cigarettes.
Proper maintenance or more frequent replacement of coils may also reduce emissions by
avoiding accumulation of polymeric residue.
If you are correct,,, and it is from dirty coils. Well then I'd be in the clear.
I love the hobby part of vaping and flip new coils in after no more then 25ml of juice.
The sweet stuff I like does a number on the coils, and even after burning them clean-the taste ain't the same,,, SOOO ,, in goes a new 7 cent coil.
Gahh, thanks for the comment on our puppy. In that photo he's about eight years old though. Unfortunately he left us over a year ago after losing a battle with cancer. He was a very special puppy. We have gotten another puppy who's now almost a year old -
They also used an Aerotank mini and found the emissions lower; in some cases 10x lower.
I'm not familiar with the Aerotank mini, only the original Aerotank. Anyone know what the what wicking the mini uses?
Oh, and then there's this:
So they burnt the heck out of it with 450 puffs at 4.8V? What do you bet they didn't let a real vaper test the device at that point to find out if they would still consider it acceptable to use?
Agreed, their testing protocol sucked.
Therefor it discredits the results, for the most part.
Nonetheless I have been reading about the polymeric residue (gunked coils) yielding higher nasties from many sources, some were actually conducted using realistic settings, albeit still power as the variable. It does appear that, with all else being equal, the amount of nasties increases with the amount of gunk on the coil. These documented results tend to show up more in the studies of flavors and sweeteners than than in hardware studies.
And I think they are also right about the thermal degradation being a key. They recognize that it is coil temperature related, they just havent used TC gear for testing yet. They keep trying to associate it with power as the variable, and that is where they are missing the mark. That is why the Wang study caught my attention so much. Its the first study to directly tie specific temperatures to thermal degradation by products.
Therefor it discredits the results, for the most part.
Nonetheless I have been reading about the polymeric residue (gunked coils) yielding higher nasties from many sources, some were actually conducted using realistic settings, albeit still power as the variable. It does appear that, with all else being equal, the amount of nasties increases with the amount of gunk on the coil. These documented results tend to show up more in the studies of flavors and sweeteners than than in hardware studies.
And I think they are also right about the thermal degradation being a key. They recognize that it is coil temperature related, they just havent used TC gear for testing yet. They keep trying to associate it with power as the variable, and that is where they are missing the mark. That is why the Wang study caught my attention so much. Its the first study to directly tie specific temperatures to thermal degradation by products.
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OK, back when I had a couple Aerotanks, stock coils were strictly silica. I actually preferred those tanks rebuilt with a single, slightly larger coil, wicked with cotton.
Gunk - our coils and drip tips get different types after prolonged use.
For the coils, I'd argue that the 'gunk' is a thermal insulator as over time the vapor output decreases as the 'gunk' builds up rather than increasing.
As a thermal insulator I find it hard to believe that the 'gunk' itself is the problem and I'd rather figure that the lower vapor production would prompt the PM (power mode) user to hold the fire button longer and or up the power setting to keep vapor production similar or the same.
Then it comes back to COIL TEMPERATURE. A gunked coil is not being cooled as well with vapor production or air flow as the ungunked counterpart.
Thankfully it takes a very long time (months) for TC vaping unflavored VG juice to "gunk up" a coil to where it needs to be dry burned or replaced.
For the coils, I'd argue that the 'gunk' is a thermal insulator as over time the vapor output decreases as the 'gunk' builds up rather than increasing.
As a thermal insulator I find it hard to believe that the 'gunk' itself is the problem and I'd rather figure that the lower vapor production would prompt the PM (power mode) user to hold the fire button longer and or up the power setting to keep vapor production similar or the same.
Then it comes back to COIL TEMPERATURE. A gunked coil is not being cooled as well with vapor production or air flow as the ungunked counterpart.
Thankfully it takes a very long time (months) for TC vaping unflavored VG juice to "gunk up" a coil to where it needs to be dry burned or replaced.
I'm not sure about the thermal insulator bit, but I am more sure that reduced airflow during gunking probably heats the juice up more, as air isn't getting to the coil as easily and cooling it. Hence the need to "draw harder" to produce vapor towards the end of a coil's life. I've found simply rinsing off visible gunk (usually when I was using coco flavorings, you could see it, since coco is so dark, it looks just like tar) when refilling can help a lot, and restores airflow to the coil if it's not burnt and vaping becomes easier without harder draws once again. But, you can't stave that coil death off forever....
I'm only going to try the coco I got for DIY and flavor it lightly without sweeteners and see how it does. I need to start steeping soon, probably tomorrow and I'll be interested in how it performs.
Anna
I'm only going to try the coco I got for DIY and flavor it lightly without sweeteners and see how it does. I need to start steeping soon, probably tomorrow and I'll be interested in how it performs.
Anna
Gunk - our coils and drip tips get different types after prolonged use.
For the coils, I'd argue that the 'gunk' is a thermal insulator as over time the vapor output decreases as the 'gunk' builds up rather than increasing.
As a thermal insulator I find it hard to believe that the 'gunk' itself is the problem and I'd rather figure that the lower vapor production would prompt the PM (power mode) user to hold the fire button longer and or up the power setting to keep vapor production similar or the same.
Then it comes back to COIL TEMPERATURE. A gunked coil is not being cooled as well with vapor production or air flow as the ungunked counterpart.
Thankfully it takes a very long time (months) for TC vaping unflavored VG juice to "gunk up" a coil to where it needs to be dry burned or replaced.
I agree that gunk is a thermal insulator, basic physics. The coil itself (underneath the gunk) probably gets hotter if VV or VW due to the lack of juice/air flow, while the surface temperature of the polymeric residue is probably cooler. So the vaporization isnt as efficient, and the hit is perceived as weak, and the user will somehow compensate for that, either by drawing longer/harder or increasing temp or wattage.
However, in the tests I have read where they measured the aldehydes, the "user compensation" factor did not come into play. It was an automated machine and the input power, puff time, juice, device, etc were all kept consistent. Under these consistent conditions thicker polymeric residue resulted in higher aldehydes. The assumption being that the burning/cooking/heating of the polymeric residue itself created higher aldehydes.
Now, put both of the above two things together, user compensation, and polymeric residue degradation, together and you get a double whammy.
I see something very similar in my TC mods when I run flavored juice. I can be tooling along at 420f and at some point the hit becomes weaker. Since it is TC the coil temp remains constant but the gunk insulator reduces the surface temp and consequently a weaker hit, so my natural reaction is to turn up the temp. When I get somewhere where I can inspect the coil I find a nice layer of gunk was usually the root cause.
I had exactly the same experience when a DNA40 was my go-to-mod. It was too dang easy to turn it up to compensate instead of doing the right thing by cleaning the coil and re-wicking. In some ways, I think I'm safer vaping unregulated because it makes me keep my coils and wicks in better condition.
FWIW, I also find that the less flavoring I have in my juice, the more sensitive I am to having a clean coil & wick.
Awareness of the potential consequences of the gunk have made me more conscious of keeping clean coils.
But... TBH, I have also gotten lazy over time. I vape unflavored predominantly now. Mainly because I like not having to clean coils and rewick all the time. I still run a tank of Peach Medley as a treat though. Usually I will just keep one mod with flavored juice, and just grab it occasionally while using unflavored in all my other mods. For example, my nightstand mod has peach in it, but it only gets hit maybe 4 times a day, except for the occasional exceptionally spectacular weekend.
But... TBH, I have also gotten lazy over time. I vape unflavored predominantly now. Mainly because I like not having to clean coils and rewick all the time. I still run a tank of Peach Medley as a treat though. Usually I will just keep one mod with flavored juice, and just grab it occasionally while using unflavored in all my other mods. For example, my nightstand mod has peach in it, but it only gets hit maybe 4 times a day, except for the occasional exceptionally spectacular weekend.
You know I've been learning a lot on this thread. Things that I have wondered about for quite a while. I have been a TC vaper since YiHi first came out with it. I use SS316L wire for my coils and vape only single coil devices with a resistance of .45ohms. My sweet spot is 410F using the lowest possible power setting to reach temp in 1-2sec. One thing I am very guilty of is letting my coils get pretty dirty before I change them. I don't care for dry burning, it just doesn't taste as good as a new coil and on the Kayfun V5 with coils made ahead of time it's almost as easy to change them rather then dry burning. Another thing I am guilty of is I use flavoring that comes from Russia and a few do have diacetyl in them. They are so strong that normally 1% flavoring is enough and my coils stay looking good for 3-4 weeks, my juice is also low nic 3mg.
I have noticed that TC devices have gotten so refined that most are ok but I still feel like YiHi and Evolve have the best but you pay for what you get. I have both and prefer YiHi but that is just a matter of preference. One thing I am surprised at is that VG actually has more bad stuff at high temps then PG. I have been moving towards high VG liquids because I like the way it smooths out the flavors but I am not concerned since I vape at a fairly low temp. I think I will start changing my coils sooner though. I wrap like 10 ahead of time which is enough to change my daily vapers twice and makes the task much easier.
Really good info here guys, I appreciate all you do.
Yihi vs Evolv, both have good TC control. I am an Evolv fan, but I admire Yihi as well. TBH, the main reason I probably went with Evolv is because Evolv was always supportive of the DIY crowd, and co-op friendly. Yihi not so much. Early on I tried to host some Yihi co-ops but they were not supportive. So I went with Evolv.
But a mod made with either brand is a top tier performer.
Plus, I prefer the good ole "Made in the USA" assuming quality and value are at similar pricepoints.
But a mod made with either brand is a top tier performer.
Plus, I prefer the good ole "Made in the USA" assuming quality and value are at similar pricepoints.
Yep they are pretty tight with their prices. I have gotten all mine from Varitube for a good reason. They never really have sales always charge the MSRP but they are the N. American service center for YiHi and always have been. They will either fix it or replace it for the entire warranty period and I've even seen them do it beyond, so it gives you a sense of security when you are putting out the big bucks, and they are always there to help. They even had Perry, I think he is one of the owners there introduce their first TC mod the M at Las Vegas that year. They have made so much improvement over the years. I just got a G class and want to go with one more the Qmini which tested out exactly the same as the G. They have intensified their efforts on nearly perfect TC for SS316L. I have 4 DNA's also and there is not a thing wrong with them. If there is you can change it which is one of the things I really like about them. For me since I only use SS316L on TC and I've used TC since they first introduced it on the M and the improvements with both have been amazing. I really like the build quality on the SX's and the DNA's I have are really good also but you have to watch out who makes them. Anybody can throw a DNA chip in their mod but not all of them are so good. But there are some dandies out there.
Mike you sure are thorough on your testing. It's really great to see that. I know it is probably impossible to test but my wife uses the Nautilus with the BVC, I've always wondered if they get hot enough to reach the danger zone. I assume they would since they are Kanthal I believe and straight power. Heck you might have already covered that but I missed it. MikeE told me there was 200 posts on this thread I figured no prob, then I got here and it was 200 pages so I haven't read all. Not even close.
@2legsshrt ... find any post by MikeP and click his blog link in his sig box. Then scroll down to atty tests and look for the Nautilus results.
Yep, me too. I have three mods in my regular rotation. One has never had anything but unflavored in it. I use it pretty much exclusively when I'm out and about or at my office. The other two have unflavored in the bottle as well, but get flavored juice dripped in from the top on an "as needed" basis. Flavored juice lasts me just about forever that way. Coils & wicks last a long time too.
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