Nic absorption with snus

[exogenesis]

Very nice presentation style Madame Psychosis, easy to read & adsorb.
Good detail & new info

I get from this that :

1. nicotine in e.g. gum tissue (assuming the 'reserviour' for snus-ers) doesn't breakdown till its been
exposed to the liver's 'de-tox system' via the blood, and so may have a long persistence,
released slowly to the blood & brain.

(given that say 4 mg nic. is adsorbed in 30 mins, and your blood contains only ~0.1 mg (total) at any given time,
and half-life (in blood/liver is 2 hours) - the nic. has got to be holding up somewhere).

2. nic. breakdown is suppressed by other alkaloids,
came across something like this before but also a somewhat compensating suppression of nicotine
receptors by the other alkaloids - will try to find the link.

Sorry to repeat, but I think snus are air-cured and steam-pasteurised, rather than fermented,
it's the air cure that keeps TSNAs low, fermenting does the opposite & may be the reason that e.g.
Skoal Bandits were banned (i.e. high TSNAs, I get the feeling these were a snus 'rip-off' with very different processing).

Interesting about the caffeine, I don't take in any caffeine (exept in emergencies), but wondering
if I should now, to counteract the body's natural required level being zilched by nicotine-enhanced P450.
(used to be a caffeine fiend, had to / decided to cut it out completely, wish I could do that with nicotine).

Complex systems indeed...

 

[exogenesis]

Yup, I found this link...
ScienceDirect - Toxicology Letters : Respiratory retention of nicotine and urinary excretion of nicotine and its five major metabolites in adult male smokers. It says that 98% of nicotine was absorbed.
.
.
(wont repeat the whole post)
...

Mister, was hoping you'd come in and clarify that, couldn't find the links.

Thanks for the fuller input, it's a right number-juggling game, especially by the ciggy manufacturers.

But we're getting clearer as we look at it closer/longer (I think).

 

[a2dcovert]

The upshot:
Supposing this is all true...

A smokeless tobacco user consumes less nicotine but takes in relatively more anatabine.
Anatabine slows down the metabolism of nicotine (not with the first dose – it takes time for enzyme inhibition to build up).
This leads to a longer half-life in the bloodstream, longer “satisfaction”, slower elimination of nic.

Concluding thoughts:
(1) Nicotine obtained from snuff and (possibly) snus might have a longer half-life in the blood than nicotine obtained from smoking because of certain metabolic alterations by other alkaloids.
(2) This is just one hypothesis of how a change in nicotine half-life could be observable when you switch from cigarettes to smokeless tobacco.
(3) This s*** is really, really complicated.
(4) Following #3, if anyone thinks they can replicate tobacco’s effect without some kind of tobacco, I am not buying it.
(5) Did I mention this is complicated?

I need a beer.

Thank you Madame,

Your information is a big help. I now see why it is so difficult to determine how much alkaloyds we are getting. This is compounded by mixing them from different sources at the same time.

(3) This s*** is really, really complicated. I agree on that point whole heartedly.

All this trouble caused by the simple tobacco plant.

I don't know how to plan a future without tobacco. I hate that I may just be another statistic in the tobacco war. Doesn't look hopeful for a positive ending. I can't wage war on depression, it's just not possible. Depression is the ultimate trumph card. It's not something to play around with.

 

[Bagazo]

Amazing that the original snus-man in 18xx got the process so right
for reduced TNSA & othe tobacco harm, without knowing the science behind it all.

I don't think so. According to this Quality from seed to can - Swedish Match (can't post links yet).

"Swedish snus by GothiaTek® is made from mainly air cured tobaccos. Traditionally fire-cured tobacco used to be the major ingredient, but this has changed in the last decade."

Personally I don't see that there is much difference between snus, snuff, dip, or chew as far as harm reduction goes. I mean if any of the smokeless options start off with air dried tobacco I don't see why they would be.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I don't think so. According to this Quality from seed to can - Swedish Match (can't post links yet).

"Swedish snus by GothiaTek® is made from mainly air cured tobaccos. Traditionally fire-cured tobacco used to be the major ingredient, but this has changed in the last decade."

Personally I don't see that there is much difference between snus, snuff, dip, or chew as far as harm reduction goes. I mean if any of the smokeless options start off with air dried tobacco I don't see why they would be.

The major difference is Swedish snus is pasturized, whereas all the others are fermented, curing aside .

 

[Bagazo]

You're right TV. Fermentation also plays a part in TSNA formation. I was refering to the 18xx process not being the same as the present.

Also my brain is always in DIY mode and I was thinking that if you got some air cured leafs you could cut and pasturize/leave dry to the use as you like.

Moisture and bacterial activity are needed for fermentation to take place so keeping tobacco dry and refrigerated/frozen should keep TSNA levels low.

Cut it and store in the fridge or freezer and take out a days worth at a time.

I think that there is also a little confusion created by the names. This is how I see them:

Snuff - dry tobacco flour used nasally

Chew - Moist loose or compressed leaf that is chewed and placed between the lower gums and cheek causing you to spit.

Oral Snuff, Dip - Ground moist tobacco placed between lower gums and lip causing you to spit.

Snus - Same as dip but pasturized placed between upper gum and lip making it spitless. I also think that the salt is a throw back to the pre-refridgeration days and could be left out if it is not to your liking.

Excluding snuff all the others are the same can be made as safe as any of the other. Snuff would be the easiest and probably the safest (just grind and place in the freezer) I just don't fancy method of delivery.

If you cut the leaf to chew size and pasturize you could have "Swedish Chew".

If you boil dip and add salt and sodium carbonate you now have snus. Also dip placed in your upper lip should not cause salivation and snus placed in your lower lip will probably have you spitting.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Sounds like a reasonable assumption Bagazo. The Swedish method seems to be secretive,but how many ways could it be pasturized? As to nic content, that varies with type of tobacco plant and what part of the plant used.
I also agree with your descriptions of the different types, but I would have to disagree with the outcome of position swaps. The American type snus will make a person drool all over the place regardless of its location in the mouth, while the Swedish type can cause a mild increase in initial salivation in the lower lip, but not a need to spit.
To clarify on the snus, though, Marlboro and Camel are pasturized and are as the Swedish type. All other American snus, labeled as portion snus, is really dip in a pouch.
So.....thinkin' about making a home brew?? Sounds like you're itchin' to try something .

 

[Bagazo]

Not that secretive but the recipe used by a particular company may be well guarded.

Here's a snus recipe:


Grind 1 kg tobacco to a fine powder.

Intermix tobacco powder with 11 dl waters and 1/2 hk ( 50 grams) salt.
Intermix, flat out and cover with gladpack.

Set the bowl to sweat in 45-50 degrees' heat in 5 days and night.

After five days and night mix in 90 grams potassium carbonate (Kaliumkarbonat) ,
work it thoroughly into the snuff and let it sweat for another day
and night too. Stir about so that it becomes evenly damp. If you think that is too damp, one can fluff it and let it sit some hours uncovered. When ready, pack in appropriate containers and freeze most of the kit.

Here's another:

Batch of Snus in 4 simple stages

1. Boil 4 dl (400ml) of water for every 250 grams of snus powder, along with one bag of salt (72g). Make sure that all of the salt dissolves. When the salted water has cooled to approximately 50 degrees (centigrade) can you can start mixing in the snus powder. Allow the mixture to stand for one hour without stirring. The container you use can be either plastic, glass, ceramic or a stainless bowl. Cover the container with aluminium foil, making sure that light cannot enter.

2. The container with the snuff powder mixture should now be set in an environment of approximately 50 degrees (centigrade), where the mixture will sweat for 5 days (and nights). If you do not have access to a boiler-room or heated cabinets, you can, in the worst case, use the kitchen oven, although this may prove unpopular amongst your hungry family members. You can also build a heat-box with an ordinary box lined with styrofoam. Depending on the ambient temperature and the insulation in the box, you can then use an ordinary tungsten lightbulb of 25-60W to heat the inside.

You should stir the mixture daily and if it becomes dry, simply add 100ml of boiled water.

3. After five days, open the container and mix in a bag of soda (sodium carbonate 22g). Simply pour the powder onto the snus mixture and be sure to distribute it evenly. Mix in a bottle glycerol/propylene-glycol. You can now add in the flavouring if you do not want plain-flavoured snus. Take care with the amount you use and test it on a small batch if you don't want to risk flavouring the whole batch.

4. Your snuff is now completed and ready to be packaged. If the humidity is too high high, lay the snus on a newspaper covered with paper towel to let it dry for approximately 2-4 hours depending on room temperature. Pack the snuff in tins or boxes. Remember that storage increases the aroma. In order to always have fresh snus, be sure to store your tins in the fridge or freezer.

As for the position swaping, I have to admit that it's just based on what I've read. I actually live in Central America so I don't have access to any of those products. As a matter of fact I still smoke. I was set to buy a PV but after reading about the lifespan of the atties decided to postpone. I do have access to air cured leaf for about $5.00 a pound. Have done a couple of extractions but out of fear I think I have cut down to much and coupled with the use of my ghetto vaping device there is much left to be desired. The real itch is in the WTA area.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Bagazo, @ $5 a pound, you might give your recipe a try. It sounds like you have a hard fight going on:

The real itch is in the WTA area.

Sure explains your research...this is the biggest catch and something alot of us can't function very well without .

 

[exogenesis]

The earliest snus date may well be much earlier than 18xx (possibly 15xx),
but not as we know them.
Glad they did change the process, even though snus culture seems very
conservative - at least in Sweden.


I guess it would be a good marketing ploy to say 'pasteurised' on the can
to make if obvious that dip/chewing etc aren't.


Some interesting info there Bagazo, seen that home-brew snus recipe around quite a bit,
if you're gonna do it well you need a 'snus oven' apparently = light bulb powered pasteurisation.

I think the wet-heat treatment is also said to develop the 'snus flavour', as well as killing the bugs,
the lower TSNAs in air-curing stems from the increased oxygen c.f. flue curing,
such that the bacteria don't have to start using the nicotine as a 'food' which gives the TSNAs.


Was thinking a synthetic WTA would be a lot cleaner/safer than direct-extracted WTA.
Dunno if the other alkaloids are 'easily' available in quality-pure like nicotine is.
Thinking that a certain nic. source supplier just might be able to help here - maybe, possibly, maybe not.

A snus sythWTA (cellulose soaked in synthWTA) might be a winner ?


As an aside was trying to make home-made 'long & thin' snus, using loose snus & cut open tea-bags.

Quite satisfying result - 1/2 g (wet) in a 5cm x 5mm diam tube fits far more
comfortably/securely between lip & gum & has a higher surface area than portion or minis
getting a better 'burst' that runs out quicker, i.e more frequent pops
(than 1g portion) but still a good length between pops,
so more like ciggies, rather than carrying this huge lump of baccy around in my mouth for an hour or more.

 

[Stubby]

As an aside was trying to make home-made 'long & thin' snus, using loose snus & cut open tea-bags.

Quite satisfying result - 1/2 g (wet) in a 5cm x 5mm diam tube fits far more
comfortably/securely between lip & gum & has a higher surface area than portion or minis
getting a better 'burst' that runs out quicker, i.e more frequent pops
(than 1g portion) but still a good length between pops,
so more like ciggies, rather than carrying this huge lump of baccy around in my mouth for an hour or more.

I've done the same thing. Lipton tea bags worked the best. I settled on about 3/4 gram using an ice tool to measure. One and a half clicks. I could make them on the long and thin side and they where very comfortable and discreet. One can of 45 gram loose snus lasted a long time.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Was thinking a synthetic WTA would be a lot cleaner/safer than direct-extracted WTA.

Didn't Big Pharma already do that?

 

[exogenesis]

Why aren't they made like this commercially, so much easier/better.

Found the pyrimid tea bags give an easier to use size of sheet,
how did you seal the ends of the tube, just twisted mine but not sure
that's always reliable.


TV, what do you mean?, can you name a product?
all commercial things NRT just nicotine aren't they.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

TV, what do you mean?, can you name a product?
all commercial things NRT just nicotine aren't they.

Effexor is the 1st to come to mind.... Not an NRT, just synthetic antidepressant. WTA=Wholesome Tobaccco Antidepressant, natural .

 

[exogenesis]

Not sure where you're trying to go with this.

We were talking about synthWTA being a controlled mixture of purified nic. and other
minor alkaloids, i.e. without the possibility of known co-extracted bad things from
baccy and without the unknowns, but preferably with the feel-good X-factor (maybe).

Don't think there's such a recreational product out there yet,
unless you're saying antidepressants are a stand-in.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Don't think there's such a recreational product out there yet,
unless you're saying antidepressants are a stand-in.

That's a good way to put it. I believe the closest we'll ever see to a synthetic WTA is pharmaceuticals. Docs prescribe Chantix for smoking cessation, patients becomes clinically depressed and/or anxiety riddled without the WTA intake, docs prescribe Welbutrin and/or Effexor to replace the missing WTA. But like they say "there's nothin' like the real thing".

exo: "Was thinking a synthetic WTA would be a lot cleaner/safer than direct-extracted WTA.
Dunno if the other alkaloids are 'easily' available in quality-pure like nicotine is."

My thinking (call me cynical) is that if it was possible Big Pharma would have done it and made a claim. It seems that the tobacco alkaloid make-up is one of such complexity once it hits the human body, it can't be reproduced the same as or better than in its natural state. Sorta like the basic chemical and electrical structures that make humans what we are. All is easily understood by scientist, but life has never been created in a lab. Just sayin' .

 

[Stubby]

Found the pyrimid tea bags give an easier to use size of sheet,
how did you seal the ends of the tube, just twisted mine but not sure
that's always reliable.

The lipton tea bags work well because they are not heat sealed. One staple holds it together. Cut the staple off (its at the top of the bag), pour the tea out and cut one seam and the whole thing lays flat. I can cut it to get 8 portions out of one tea bag. I know one person at snuson that gets 12.

I just put the snus in the tea bag material and fold it over. No twisting. Play around with it a bit and you'll get the hang of it. The unsealed lipton bags work much better then the heat sealed type.

As for the synthetic nicotine I remember DVap said that it's much more expensive then a tobacco extract.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/60810-nicotine-overdose-possible-3.html#post943979

It appears that besides being very expensive it's not as effective, and that's just nicotine. I would guess WTA would be many times more difficult to do.

The only practical approach the might be a little safer (and that's a relative term as snus is already many times less risky then smoking) is a high quality WTA extract from tobacco. That could be made into e-liquid, dissolvable, or whatever.

 

[exogenesis]

Amazed you can get 8 or 12 out of one bag,
either they're very big bags or very small portions ?

3 cuts to remove all seals on a pyrimid bag gives a flat sheet 12 x 5 cm,
I couldn't make more than say two secure 'long & thin' 1/2g snus from that.

Fold-over sound better than twisting the ends I guess, would be interested
in a pictorial guide & description - would be good as a new thread ,
could get others to give their insight as well then.



Think we're getting off-track with the synth WTA,
not talking about completely synthetic nicotine as such,
but a purified version of WTA from tobacco.

Probably needs to be as far as completely seperating all components
(e.g. liquid chromatography) and re-combining to synthWTA using just
the pure alkaloid fractions, specifically chucking out all other nitrogenous compounds
(like TSNAs) and minor amounts of carried-over impurities (fats, carbohydrates etc).
Also possibly adding an MAOI 'substitute' like a small amount of harmine (?)

Nicotine has chemical/physical properties that the other alkaloids don't,
which makes it easier to get it away from the other stuff in bulk with more
'mechanical' methods, hence easier to bulk purify or at least pre-purify.

Supercritical CO2 extraction is the choice one commercially,
possibly it's also adjustable to get the other pure alkaloids as well,
depends on their properties. Not something you can do at home tho.



Anyway 'nicotine-only' has always been the specific objective (for NRT et al, for whatever reason),
so no real commercial effort done for the other good stuff, & no market created.


Certainly it's do-able, just a question of commercial availability & cost.

Might even be possible to take the home-brew approach, using DVaps initial WTA(+),
and relatively simple purification equipment, still a tad expensive on balance.

Or maybe just make sure the tobacco source is air-cured, not flue-cured
for making WTA, to reduce the TSNAs in the first place.
Even then, there's the flavour thing to consider...



TV still not sure why you're saying the 'treatment' pharmaceuticals are comparable
to the actual alkaloids, aren't we looking for a better 'real thing', rather than replacements ?

Big pharma haven't had a 'need' to commercialise WTA or similar,
afaik it's been nicotine-only all the way, also much easier to get a
single component product 'ratified' by who-ever it concerns.

.
.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Think we're getting off-track with the synth WTA,
not talking about completely synthetic nicotine as such,
but a purified version of WTA from tobacco.

Probably needs to be as far as completely seperating all components
(e.g. liquid chromatography) and re-combining to synthWTA using just
the pure alkaloid fractions, specifically chucking out all other nitrogenous compounds
(like TSNAs) and minor amounts of carried-over impurities (fats, carbohydrates etc).
Also possibly adding an MAOI 'substitute' like a small amount of harmine (?)

Nicotine has chemical/physical properties that the other alkaloids don't,
which makes it easier to get it away from the other stuff in bulk with more
'mechanical' methods, hence easier to bulk purify or at least pre-purify.

Supercritical CO2 extraction is the choice one commercially,
possibly it's also adjustable to get the other pure alkaloids as well,
depends on their properties. Not something you can do at home tho.



Anyway 'nicotine-only' has always been the specific objective (for NRT et al, for whatever reason),
so no real commercial effort done for the other good stuff, & no market created.


Certainly it's do-able, just a question of commercial availability & cost.

Might even be possible to take the home-brew approach, using DVaps initial WTA(+),
and relatively simple purification equipment, still a tad expensive on balance.

Or maybe just make sure the tobacco source is air-cured, not flue-cured
for making WTA, to reduce the TSNAs in the first place.
Even then, there's the flavour thing to consider...



TV still not sure why you're saying the 'treatment' pharmaceuticals are comparable
to the actual alkaloids, aren't we looking for a better 'real thing', rather than replacements ?

Big pharma haven't had a 'need' to commercialise WTA or similar,
afaik it's been nicotine-only all the way, also much easier to get a
single component product 'ratified' by who-ever it concerns.

.
.

Exo, my friend, I think we're looking across the same fence from different angles. I'm not a chemist so I don't really know, I only have what is face value. There's isn't a single natural thing, to my knowledge, that has been able to be disassembled in a lab, then put back together in a better way and with comparable or better results. Look at ancient Chinese and North American Indian herbal remedies, then fast forward to modern pharmaceuticals. Sure, there's a lot of good stuff out there coming from labs, but between politics and money the course of the last 100 years has brought us the belief that we can take something medicinal from nature, synthesize it and call it as good or new and improved. It's not that I don't agree with your desire to build a better, cleaner and safer alkaloid soup, I just don't think it's possible to do it and end up with the same results we're looking for/needing. My reference to the complexity of tobacco alkaloids wasn't from a chemical standpoint, but how they work. I don't doubt that some really smart folks can look at each component of a gram of tobacco and say "this does this and that helps that...." and so on. But to disassemble and reassemble them by a determination of what's no good or not needed and still have the same positive effects on ones mind is unlikely.
Thinking of how a single smoke can do what you need it to do (give relaxation or stimulation, narrow your mental focus or tear your mind from a fixation), if it was at all possible to do that in a lab Big Pharma would have pulled it off. Basically, we're talking about the antidepressant qualities of a smoke, since that's what we're really after, and I think if a synthetic WTA that was totally pure and safe could be made, it would be on a pharmacy shelf. They haven't been able to do it so we have all these other antidepressants that try to reproduce some of the effects at a moderate risk to health.
What DVap has come up with is pretty phenominal and maybe it could be even purer, but at some point I believe the WTA will start to lose its spectrum of effectiveness before all the unwanted things are removed. In other words, I don't think it's possible to have all the good without taking some of the bad. Just sayin' .

 

[exogenesis]

OK, appreciate the from-the-heart stuff, but we're close to arguing philosophies,
- I don't think it's a matter of belief.

I'd hate to see this turn this into a kind of evolution vs creationist to&fro,
or even medicine vs homeopathy, (not trying to make you take a role btw).

I'm pretty sure whatever activity a mixture of alkaloids had before it was seperated,
it would have again when recombined.


The sort of thing you're talking about is when we don't know the majority parts of the makeup of the
original system, here we do know most of it - we know what we want & what we don't want and
probably what we want to try as additives as substitute(s) for the potentially minor
'unknown' parts (e.g. MAOIs),
& DVap's original WTA(+) was mostly effective even without the latter.

Can't imagine the TSNA's are part of the feel-good factor
(but I'm willing to be proved wrong - wanna volunteer?).

Big Pharma didn't need or want to try WTA probably partly cos of the regulatory problem with mixtures,
and probably they think it's covered (enough) by current NRT (straight nicotine).

Not sure why you'd feel like arguing against an attempt to create a cleaner WTA,
even if it didn't work (say as well as snus) it's worth investigating.

Good to have the conversation anyway tho