Nic absorption with snus

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I'd hate to see this turn this into a kind of evolution vs creationist to&fro,
or even medicine vs homeopathy, (not trying to make you take a role btw).


Not sure why you'd feel like arguing against an attempt to create a cleaner WTA,
even if it didn't work (say as well as snus) it's worth investigating.

Good to have the conversation anyway tho

I guess I sorta sound that way, but I don't mean to. I'm not a "mother earth" kind of person, I just fail to see any evidence that modern pharma, which has the brains and the financial backing, has been able to make an improvement on anything that came from nature. I might be wrong, but I haven't seen any results to the contrary, so it's only my veiw. That's not to say they haven't developed some great things, but a patent can't be put on a natural substance. If they could reassemble a good and wholesome WTA, they could patent it and I'm sure they'd love to. They know NRT's don't cut it and it's no big deal to keep patients on antidepressants forever, so a prescription for WTA would be very profitable as well as a headline making smoking cessation product. I'm all for purefied WTA, I just don't think it's possible.
Difference of opinions does make for good conversation, though .

 

[exogenesis]

Er, well lets see now, pre-pend the word synthetic & post-pend the word drugs to these:
antibiotic, vaccine, anesthetic, pain killer, steroid, anti-tissue rejection, antiviral,
Maybe fertility drugs & birth control, & yes, even anti-depressants & anti-psychcotics.

Belief is not something you should really believe in.

Anyway the proof is in the eating, won't know until / if there's any practical
way to get hold of synthetic WTA (in this case meaning reconstituted from pure components).

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Er, well lets see now, pre-pend the word synthetic & post-pend the word drugs to these:
antibiotic, vaccine, anesthetic, pain killer, steroid, anti-tissue rejection, antiviral,
Maybe fertility drugs & birth control, & yes, even anti-depressants & anti-psychcotics.

Belief is not something you should really believe in.

Anyway the proof is in the eating, won't know until / if there's any practical
way to get hold of synthetic WTA (in this case meaning reconstituted from pure components).

Oh......I didn't say they can't do anything right, I said they can't improve nature, which is what WTA is. Natural antibiotics can't be overused; vaccines are not as effective as a body that builds natural immunity; anesthetics...ok, I'm good with that; natural painkillers can be as effective and deadly as their synthetic counterparts; steroids is legitimate to the point of over or un-needed use; anti-rejection...ok; anti-viral would be bleach, alcohol, boiling...once infected, treatment is for symptoms only; fertility drugs & birth control, well, that can go several ways from oops to oops. "Natural Planning" is a method of using the body's natural cycles for birth control and is more effective, if adhered to than birth control drugs and devices. Fertility drugs seem to produce an abundance, though.
....didn't want ya to think I'd let ya off easy.

My beliefs come from what I see. Show me otherwise and I'll believe otherwise. I'm not set in stone. If I could be presented with 1 natural thing that chemists have been able to tear apart and put back together with better performance than the original and no side effects, aka 3rd eye syndrom, I'd soften a bunch. Synthetic WTA would be a great start, but I remain a sceptic.

Still love me, don't cha ?

 

[a2dcovert]

My personal belief is that a single synthetic chemical will not be able to reproduce the effects of WTA. I know that BP has tried and failed twice in recent years. Brain chemistry is too personally specific as to how any individual will respond to it. The same can be said of any of the
psychotherapy chemicals BP has produced over the years. There is a small group of individuals that respond to these chemicals predictably. There is another group that has an undesirable response and some who have tragic experiences. A good case in point is Chantix.

The BP doctors and chemists know what effect WTA has on the brain. I think the natural WTA is too complex to be synthized. WTA has the ability to produce predictable responses in a wider group of individuals and at the same time also produce a neutral effect on another group without adverse effects. Few psychotherapy chemicals can make this claim.

Unless BP goes after the proper approach to this solution they will fail.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

Sorry to go so off-topic, but I did want to put in my two cents on this one...

My beliefs come from what I see. Show me otherwise and I'll believe otherwise. I'm not set in stone. If I could be presented with 1 natural thing that chemists have been able to tear apart and put back together with better performance than the original and no side effects, aka 3rd eye syndrom, I'd soften a bunch. Synthetic WTA would be a great start, but I remain a sceptic.

The first example to come to mind that might fit your criteria...
White willow bark tea was used for millennia as an anti-fever agent, and it was discovered that this made sense: it produced salicylic acid. However, salicylic acid can cause bleeding, gastric distress, ........, and more serious problems, and the dosage when taken as a botanical is hard to predict. In the late 1900s a scientist discovered that a different form of the compound -- acetylsalicylic acid -- had fewer risks with the same mechanism of action. Acetylsalicylic acid = aspirin. Bingo.

There's a huge number of drugs out there that started as whole botanicals from which scientists narrowed down compounds with medicinal properties, while eliminating the unwanted (sometimes quite harmful) stuff and allowing for controlled, safer dosing.

tobacco's been more difficult to pick apart than most medicinal plants, because it's got multiple active compounds in it. We can make the switch from willow bark to aspirin, but not tobacco to nicotine....as we know too well. The tobacco->nicotine substitution came from this time-tested idea that we can pin down one or two major active compounds in a botanical, which to be fair is generally true. It doesn't mean tobacco is somehow too mysterious, just that some researchers stopped looking too soon ( + settled on nicotine).

 

[Madame Psychosis]

Oohh, and Bagazo, thanks for posting the 'recipe', even if I doubt I'll become a home cook (in a college town apartment, I think I'll draw too much attention if I start processing leaves ).
Additive-free (I presume), air-cured leaf for $5 a pound...can't beat that with a stick. Cheaper than an atomizer that'll last you no longer.

Big pharma haven't had a 'need' to commercialise WTA or similar,
afaik it's been nicotine-only all the way, also much easier to get a
single component product 'ratified' by who-ever it concerns.

Very true. Big Pharma would have major issues getting a WTA-type blend past the regulators. And the single compounds within it can't be patented anyway.

Then, politicians and culture warriors would be aghast (think of the children!) at the idea of 're-creating' tobacco's effects, just as they are about (gasp) simulating smoking...

Commercial lab suppliers can provide the major alkaloids as well as norharman and harman, and of course, nicotine. The basic "chemical soup" could be re-created in theory. I don't think a 'synthetic' WTA is necessarily impossible, because I don't like that word . But I seriously doubt it will happen. Which is why refining it down from tobacco seems so enticing...
(yes, I've been working on the 'so are we getting it' thread )

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

The first example to come to mind that might fit your criteria...
White willow bark tea was used for millennia as an anti-fever agent, and it was discovered that this made sense: it produced salicylic acid. However, salicylic acid can cause bleeding, gastric distress, ........, and more serious problems, and the dosage when taken as a botanical is hard to predict. In the late 1900s a scientist discovered that a different form of the compound -- acetylsalicylic acid -- had fewer risks with the same mechanism of action. Acetylsalicylic acid = aspirin. Bingo.

Ok, I stand corrected.... See exo...an aspirin is all it took. Still, do to the complexity of its effects, I still think synthetic WTA is a no-go. Forever. And ever..... ..and stop giggling.

 

[exogenesis]

There's a huge number of drugs out there that started as whole botanicals from which scientists narrowed down compounds with medicinal properties, while eliminating the unwanted (sometimes quite harmful) stuff and allowing for controlled, safer dosing.

Most of them I think, would be an interesting statistic to know the actual proportion.

The BP doctors and chemists know what effect WTA has on the brain. I think the natural WTA is too complex to be synthized. WTA has the ability to produce predictable responses in a wider group of individuals and at the same time also produce a neutral effect on another group without adverse effects. Few psychotherapy chemicals can make this claim.
Unless BP goes after the proper approach to this solution they will fail.

and

Tobacco's been more difficult to pick apart than most medicinal plants, because it's got multiple active compounds in it. We can make the switch from willow bark to aspirin, but not tobacco to nicotine....as we know too well. The tobacco->nicotine substitution came from this time-tested idea that we can pin down one or two major active compounds in a botanical. It's a massive exception, but not really the rule.

I don't see it as too complex or an exception, we know the exact structures of all the alkaloids,
we have seperation methods from which we can get the pure individual 'items',
the only fly in the ointment is this (possible) seratonin-effect from smoke.

What else are we saying is in WTA, apart from the stuff we know we don't want (TSNAs) ?

Commercial lab suppliers can provide the major alkaloids as well as norharman and harman, and of course, nicotine. The basic "chemical soup" could be re-created in theory. I don't think a 'synthetic' WTA is necessarily impossible, because I don't like that word . But I seriously doubt it will happen. Which is why refining it down from tobacco seems so enticing...
(yes, I've been working on the 'so are we getting it' thread )

OK Reconstituted then RWTA.
Lab. suppliers prices are way prohibitive for this activity for a product at the purity needed,
it probably needs to be a designed & integrated 'get them all out one-by-one' bulk(ish) multi-step flow process.
Tobacco in ---> RWTA out = cost effective & a cheap (enough) product, plus QC analysis etc obviously.

Good on you for progressing the SAWGI (sorry) thread re-presentation info

Additive-free (I presume), air-cured leaf for $5 a pound...

Want......where???
That can't include tax surely.

Ok, I stand corrected.... See exo...an aspirin is all it took. Still, do to the complexity of its effects, I still think synthetic WTA is a no-go. Forever. And ever..... ..and stop giggling.

Nyah nhya, told you so .... Slap - stop being childish exo

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Nyah nhya, told you so .... Slap - stop being childish exo

I go through the same thing with my boss, but my success rate is high......my wife, on the other hand, well.....(shaking head)....I'm always wrong, so I've learned to be humble . In this case I'll declare victory up to the point Madame cut me to shreds . ....frustratin', ain't I..... So now I resume my therapy with the natural goodness of snus. .....oh, look at it...so perfect in its little teabag uniform.....so reasonably safe and cheap......so understanding of my needs.......come to poppa little one......

 

[W Axl Rose]

wow, this is a complex thread. Can someone dumb it down for me and tell me two things? How much nic absorption is there from snus? What is WTA? Thanks.

 

[BubbleBobble]

Not sure I can trust a source which refers to cigarettes as "ciggie", but definitely interesting (if true). Good find.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Not sure I can trust a source which refers to cigarettes as "ciggie", but definitely interesting (if true). Good find.

Oh, exo has a shorthand knowledge reference longer than both my legs on end as well as some intriguing experiments under his belt. But, he resides in the UK so he really can't be expected to use proper vocabulary like us folks in LA or IN, ain't that right exo.........

 

[BubbleBobble]

I see. I was mostly poking fun with a dash of seriousness. Thanks though twisted victor. Hell, trust me, the last thing I'm surrounded by in Louisiana is proper english, lol! But, good people here. Go Saints!

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I see. I was mostly poking fun with a dash of seriousness. Thanks though twisted victor. Hell, trust me, the last thing I'm surrounded by in Louisiana is proper english, lol! But, good people here. Go Saints!

I know BB, I do the same. It's my way of throwing exo off when he starts gettin' too brainy for me. Then again..his humor rivals mine so sometimes it's a draw .

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

BUT I STILL DON'T BELIEVE ANYONE ANYWHERE WILL EVER BE ABLE TO MAKE A SAFE, EFFECTIVE SYNTHETIC WTA......NO HOW, NO WAY!!! There

 

[Stubby]

wow, this is a complex thread. Can someone dumb it down for me and tell me two things? How much nic absorption is there from snus? What is WTA? Thanks.

I'm real good at dumbing down so I'll give it a shot.

As for how much nicotine absorption with snus, the real world answer is, as much as anyone could need. They go from 3 mg to 17 mg a portion. No doubt a 17 mg portion would have me doing a swan song with the commode.

It's a tough one trying to dumb down WTA as it's an involved subject. WTA stands for Whole Tobacco Alkaloids. Nicotine makes up about 90% of the alkaloids in tobacco but there are others. Many of us have found that nicotine alone is deficient in the long run to keep us off cigarettes. To get the missing alkaloids we have turned to other sources of reduced harm tobacco products. For the most part snus is at the top for giving us the X factor missing in e-liquid. But there are a few others.

This is the original thread where the idea of WTA came up

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine.html

It's a novels worth of reading. There is a movement a foot to make it into a more readable form.

Also read DVap's blog

E-Cigarette Forum - DVap

This may be the best place to get a quick feel for what's going on with WTA.

 

[exogenesis]

Nicely summarised Stubby

I think the take-home figure from the link (in the original post) is that for snus
you get around 40% of the stated portion nicotine content actually adsorbed over about 30 minutes.

Which is a lot more per snus than the 1 to 2 mg over 3 mins per 'combusted rolled-up alkaloid product'
(C.R.A.P.) formerly known as a Ciggie

Not sure I can trust a source which refers to cigarettes as "ciggie", but definitely interesting (if true). Good find.

Could start calling them fags (another UK slang for a ciggy),
but I don't think that works too well for the New World continents.

Working in software I've been advised not to use the expression 'dumping data'
since that could also be misconstrued (or even cause offence).

Don't get me started on the proper spelling and use of the English langauge
(you have been warned....)

We could also do religion - I'm a Creationist (not)....go for it,
& politics (I'm an political agnostic)


RWTA FTW

.
.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Could start calling them fags (another UK slang for a ciggy),
but I don't think that works too well for the New World continents..

Was the same here at one time.....and gay was "happy" and "joyous".

Don't get me started on the proper spelling and use of the English langauge
(you have been warned....).

Insert key in the ignition. Hey, how em I sposed ta no if yer lookin at one a them big books with all thu fancee werds? Thad be cheetin! Cors, I gess ya don't no I arnt neether.

We could also do religion - I'm a Creationist (not)....go for it,.

Any proof of the contrary?

& politics (I'm an political agnostic)


RWTA FTW
.
.

Ok...no argument from me.

 

[exogenesis]

Insert key in the ignition. Hey, how em I sposed ta no if yer lookin at one a them big books with all thu fancee werds? Thad be cheetin! Cors, I gess ya don't no I arnt neether.

Well, I could tell if I asked you to spell the alternative word for 'silicosis caused by volcanoes'

Any proof of the contrary?

My fluffy purple dinosaur friend assures me that at no time did humans co-exist with him.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Well, I could tell if I asked you to spell the alternative word for 'silicosis caused by volcanoes'.

Is that some kind of hemorrhoidal condition?

My fluffy purple dinosaur friend assures me that at no time did humans co-exist with him.

I get that from alot of evolutionists, atleast it's consistant. Barney almost threw me for a loop, too. He starts saying things and before you can ask questions he goes into that "I love you, you love me" song. Next thing, you're singing along with him.