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Nic Base Storage: Freezer vs. Room Temp Experiment

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by Rossum, Mar 5, 2017.

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  1. 440BB

    440BB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 19, 2011
    The Motor City
    Thanks for keeping this going and showing us the differences. I hope we get a chance to see them for a long time to come!
     
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  2. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Yep, thanks for your experiments, Rossum, very useful information indeed :)

    Anna
     
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  3. newyork13

    newyork13 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 9, 2013
    western Massachusetts
    thanks @Rossum for your efforts.
     
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  4. Cool_Breeze

    Cool_Breeze Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 10, 2011
    Kentucky
    "Yes, but what does it mean?" lol Perhaps our resident chemist @mikepetro will chime in.
     
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  5. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    Interesting thread. Thanks for doing the experiment.:thumbs:

    Can someone answer this? Did I read somewhere that Nicotine Salt is supposed to be less susceptible to oxidation? Just wondering if I read that somewhere, or if I'm just nuts, lol.
     
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  6. Burnie

    Burnie The Bug Man Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 1, 2009
    Sunny Florida
    I did a quick search, found this, but there is more out there I'm sure. :)

    upload_2018-3-10_7-12-1.png

    Nicotine Salts: Everything You Wanted to Know | Vaping411
     
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  7. Burnie

    Burnie The Bug Man Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 1, 2009
    Sunny Florida
    @Rossum
    What are your thoughts on storage in the refrigerator? I have some juice and nicotine that have been in there for a couple of years, and seems to be holding up really good. Your test was 2 extremes, really cold (0 degrees), and room temp (80ish?), what about middle of the road (40ish)? Only reason I have it in the fridge is I read freezing mixed juice was not a good idea, so I just put it in the fridge, plus I had some nicotine that I am using out of that I keep in the fridge. Just thinking out loud here. :)
     
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  8. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Not @Rossum

    It is my understanding that the colder the better, the frig would be better than room temp, room temp would be better than sitting in the sun in August. From what Dr Kurt says "cold" slow the molecules down which in turn reduces oxidation.

    I store my bulk nic in the freezer, and my open working bottle of concentrate in the frig.

    An interested and related thread with lots of tips from Dr Kurt.
    Preparations for freezing nic
     
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  9. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    SE PA
    I agree with Mike -- colder is better, so a fridge is definitely better than room temp.

    The question is: How long do you intend to store it and how cold does it need to be in order to stay fresh for that long? I'm not sure anyone has an answer to this. Based on what I'm seeing with my nic (some of which is over 4 years old now) and what Kurt has previously reported at 7+ years, a freezer is probably cold enough to keep nic fresh more-or-less indefinitely, so a house-hold freezer looks seems to be good enough for all practical purposes. Would a fridge be just as good? I doubt it, but I'm by no means certain.

    In any case, I'm not gonna start fridge tests. My wife doesn't like nic in "her" fridge. Yes, I can get away with putting in there overnight so it's all at the same temp when I take pics of samples the next day, but keeping in there long-term wouldn't fly.

    Oh, and my room temp samples are in an air-conditioned house, so generally in the range of 68-77°F. I'm not sure how warm the Florida samples got when power was off for more than a week here last September. I'll note the that FL freezer samples also assumed room temperature during that time and it didn't seem to affect them that much. The Pennsylvania samples have never experienced a notable power outage.
     
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  10. Burnie

    Burnie The Bug Man Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 1, 2009
    Sunny Florida
    I agree colder is better, and not asking for more tests, was just curious if you had any experience (or anyone else), just gleaming knowledge. :)
     
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  11. ilporcupine

    ilporcupine Ultra Member

    Feb 24, 2018
    IL, Duh
    Rossum,just chiming in to say thanks for doing the work, so we don't have to.
    :w00t:
     
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  12. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    SE PA
    I'm about a month late on this update. I'd originally intended to post about these samples in early June, when they were almost exactly one year old, but somehow I didn't get a round tuit then. So now they're just about 13 months old. Post #137 in this thread has the original pics from when I started these samples.

    As usual, I put them all in the fridge overnight so they'd all be at the same temperature when photographed. First, a couple of pics in the fridge, with LED backlighting:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And then some natural lighting (bright, sunny day, with indirect light coming from north facing window to the left of this location)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Discussion:
    • Freezer samples look good. There's very little, if any, difference between the sample that was rebottled in glass compared to the sample that was left in the original PET plastic bottle (and was never opened). This is despite the fact that they were at or close to room temperature for about a week after Hurricane Irma last year.
    • Room temperature samples look pretty icky. I don't think I'd mix with either of these. Moreover, here we can see that the sample that I rebottled in glass has clearly held up better than the one still in the original PET plastic that I never opened.

    Conclusions (so far):
    • Over the long term, storage temperature is more important than the type of bottle.
    • Glass is better, but if you don't have your glass bottles ready when you receive your nic, put it in the freezer in whatever bottle(s) it came in. Do not leave it sitting at room temperature longer than you have to.

    Future Plans:
    I have a lifetime supply of nic, which I'm using on a FIFO basis. Right now, I'm still mixing with nic that I got during the first half of 2014. So there's no compelling reason for me to end this experiment. I'm especially curious if I'll ever see any significant difference between the freezer sample that are in PET vs. the one in glass.
     
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  13. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Clearly the temp was the biggest factor, while the freezer ones are not as crystal clear as the originals they are relatively unchanged compared to room temp.
     
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  14. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    SE PA
    The lack of clarity may be due to the fact that there is just a bit of condensation on the bottles. That's hard to avoid here in Florida at this time of year when pulling stuff from the refrigerator.

    I could avoid that by letting all the samples come to room temperature each time I take pics, but I think that would be undesirable for the freezer samples (which, as I mentioned, have already spent some unplanned time at room temperature due to the power being out after the hurricane last September).

    Are the freezer samples as colorless as when I got them? Hard to say for sure. Lighting conditions have a tremendous effect on that.

    I'd happily mix with and vape either of the freezer samples. But I'd have to be pretty dang desperate to use the room-temperature samples. ;)
     
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  15. sonicbomb

    sonicbomb Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2015
    1187 Hunterwasser
    The RT samples look vile, especially that long tall bottle.
    Thanks for putting the effort in with this project Rossum. It's a pleasure to take actions based on the scientific method rather than hearsay and guesswork.

    ⊂(◉‿◉)つ
     
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  16. ilporcupine

    ilporcupine Ultra Member

    Feb 24, 2018
    IL, Duh
    Rossum, thanks for continuing to do this comparison. It takes things beyond the speculation and subjective realm, for a change.
    Much appreciated!
     
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  17. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    Thank you for doing this and sharing with us all Rossum. I really appreciate it :thumb:

    I know I should go back to the beginning of this thread and I may well find an answer, but I'm vegging after a few long days at work in a heat wave up here :). What is the issue with the darkening that makes you reluctant to vape it?
     
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  18. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    SE PA
    Back when I ran the blind-test in the Nicotine Comparison thread I had ~40 ml of each 120 ml sample left over. I stuck them all in a cupboard for several months 'cause I didn't need them at that time. Then when I went to use them, I noticed they had all darkened substantially. I made a big batch of unflavored base from them at my then usual strength of 15mg. That batch of base tasted noticeably oxidized. Some people seem to like that, but I'm not one of them. I vaped it anyway (waste not, want not), but I was glad when it was gone and I was able to make my next batch from nic that had been stored in the freezer.
     
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  19. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    Thanks Rossum :)

    Full disclosure ... I vape at around 1.5 mg/ml and I like TH. Basically, I'm out of luck :cry:

    I store my nic in the freezer too. I take a small quantity out at a time and heat it to give it more TH. It doesn't darken, but it may oxidize it. Whatever changes, it works for me. I probably have about 10 years supply in the freezer, which for me isn't all that much nic base :), but I still don't want it to change much before I use it so I can do what I want with it.

    Darkening per se doesn't bother me any, but without an understanding of the chemical change that happens I'll stick to the freezer method :cool:

    Kudos for doing this my friend and I'll be watching your thread for further developments as they develop :thumb:
     
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  20. mrphilip

    mrphilip Full Member

    Sep 29, 2017
    New York, NY
    I use a wine fridge from Sears for commercial. diy stuff all R/T, most nic in freezer, enough for next 6 months in fridge.
     
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