Nic Base Storage: Freezer vs. Room Temp Experiment

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Leo Bak

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I have a liter of 100mg/ml of 50/50 nicotine salts that came in a plastic bottle (from nicotine river). I usually have my nic in glass but I thought it would be better to leave it in the original bottle even though it’s plastic because I didn’t need any for several months at least. So for you folks that have stored nicotine which way will keep it fresher? Unopened but in plastic, or open and transferred into glass?

I didn’t mention it but it IS stored in my freezer.
Recently i saw a few pictures on a Dutch forum, of nicbase in PET bottles that had been stored in a freezer for over two years. The base had turned near brown and had become unvapeable. Tried to look up those pics, but no luck.

A month ago i opened this glass bottle, from january 2015 which had been stored in a freezer, it tastes as good as new:

DmvYBesr.jpg


So yes, i'd open them up and transfer them to glass, before storing them in a freezer for longer periods. A few months at room temperature never ruined any nicbase of mine, but a one year old bottle (room temp) started to taste very sharp and peppery.

I don't have any experience with nic salts though, but i'm told it doesn't oxidize as fast as freebase.
 

Rossum

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Recently i saw a few pictures on a Dutch forum, of nicbase in PET bottles that had been stored in a freezer for over two years. The base had turned near brown and had become unvapeable. Tried to look up those pics, but no luck.
I'm curious: What color were the PET bottles? If they were anything but clear, and they were never opened, the person who posted that doesn't know whether that nic wasn't fresh and clear to begin with.

I've left nic in PET bottles in the freezer for 2-1/2 years unintentionally (I forgot I had that that particular 4x120 ml batch). That was the nic this thread started with more than two years ago. It had only the slightest straw color too it. See page 1. Since then, I've mixed down and vaped the other half of that batch. It was fine.

I've also bought some nic specifically for this thread in PET bottles and left half if it that way while rebottling the other half in glass just to see what difference it would make. We're coming up on two years on those samples and I intend to post an update about them soon.

Anyway, I won't argue that glass isn't best; it almost certainly is. But I'm not at all convinced that PET plastic is as bad as some people think.
 
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Leo Bak

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@Rossum Back in 2017 several people on that forum had bought this nic from a German retailer, all packed in dark brown (transparent) PET bottles, during a short sale. Of course he could have had bad luck and this was just a bad batch, but that seems unlikely to me, as all others stored it in the freezer in glass, and no one experienced the same problem. Unfortunately they were not able to compare batch numbers since everyone else had disposed the original bottles. Still, possibly just one bad batch, true.

However i suspect this retailer had just used cheap PET bottles, as there are several types of PET, or better, several barrier additives you can put into PET. That's why it's not possible to assume that PET in general is better than f.i. PE: some PET has a higher oxigen barrier than HDPE, some doesn't. Or gas barrier etc etc. There may exist PET that can store nicbase for a longer period, but i wouldn't take such chances, better be safe and put it in glass. Here in Holland buying high level nicbase has become quite hard, so long term storage is becoming more important than before. Several people overhere are already getting their nic from China and India (which produces a lot of nic for Swiss pharma companies that sold that same nic in the EU until recently, now that i'm going so off topic anyway).

When again trying to retrieve that pic, i stumbled upon a similar thread discussing nicbase that had been stored in HDPE bottles, and it didn't look good either. Light brown discoloring after a few years in the freezer.

aeOdRhD.jpg


Curious to see your latest findings on your nic storage experiments BTW!
 

zoiDman

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When again trying to retrieve that pic, i stumbled upon a similar thread discussing nicbase that had been stored in HDPE bottles, and it didn't look good either. Light brown discoloring after a few years in the freezer.

...

I believe that HDPE has a relatively High Oxygen Permeability.
 

Rossum

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Does anyone know offhand what type plastic Nicotine River hit salts nicotine bottles are used. They are white and shaped like small antifreeze bottle?
Based on the description, they're most likely HDPE.
 

Leo Bak

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Does anyone know offhand what type plastic Nicotine River hit salts nicotine bottles are used. They are white and shaped like small antifreeze bottle?
Judging from the pics, most likely HDPE. If you own a bottle you could check the bottom for any symbols.
 

madstabber

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Thanks guys, it’s buried in the back of the freezer so I didn’t want to pull it out. I’m down to 250ml of nicotine outside the freezer so it won’t be too long before I’ll be breaking it down in glass. One liter of 100mg nicotine into three liters of 33mg nicotine salt 50/50 ready to use.
 

IDJoel

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I believe that HDPE has a relatively High Oxygen Permeability.
I think you may be mistaken, or thinking of LDPE. In some private correspondence with Kurt; he had indicated that HDPE was second only to PET, for gas impermeability. LDPE has greater gas permeability than HDPE.
Does anyone know offhand what type plastic Nicotine River hit salts nicotine bottles are used. They are white and shaped like small antifreeze bottle?
This sounds like the same bottles that Heartland Vapes uses for their nic concentrates. I have a couple of those and they are HDPE. If it is; you should see a recycle code (numeral inside a triangle) of "1" (whenever you decide to look).

Nic salt is more stable (resistant to oxidation) than freebase. I think you should be relatively safe.
 

zoiDman

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I think you may be mistaken, or thinking of LDPE. In some private correspondence with Kurt; he had indicated that HDPE was second only to PET, for gas impermeability. LDPE has greater gas permeability than HDPE.

...

LDPE has an Abysmal Oxygen Permeability.

HPPE may be 2nd to PET among common "Food Safe" monomers depending on thicknesses.

I prefer to use Glass. Because it kinda removes the concept of Oxygen Permeability. It also reduces topics like possible Bisphenol A leaching or interactions with the Contents of the container.
 

Mowgli

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Glass is impermeable & doesn't leach.
Transfer your nicotine into glass with polycone caps as soon as possible.
My 5 year old nicotine is good as new stored this way.
There's no logical reason to leave it in pet, ldpe, abcdefg, whatever, it's plastic ffs

from @Kurt at Nicotine Comparisons thread ---- Kurt Kistler at Penn State

Just saw this.

I think your freezer should be just fine at -18C. This is about 0 F, and cooler than my freezer (10F). I have only limited data from freezing a VG-nic juice with 20% water, from years ago, but it did not separate or have solid ice in it...it just got thicker. It was only one attempt at this, but it makes sense to me from a chemistry view: through cross H-bonds, the water solvates completely with the VG, and cannot recombine back into pure water with cold.

As for those that are obsessed with purging headspace air from the stored bottle with a gas like Ar, let's do a little calculation. Let's assume 4 mL of headspace in a bottle of nic. If O2 is 25% of the air (rough estimate) that is 1 mL of O2. We will ignore vapor pressure of VG or water. If we assume 1 atm pressure and 25 C (298K), we can use standard PV=nRT high school chemistry math, where n is moles, and R is 0.0821L-atm/mol-K. So 0.001L O2 is

0.001L x 1 atm/(0.0821L-atom/mol-K * 298K) = 4.08x10^-5 moles of O2.

If one mole of O2 reacts with one mole of nicotine (it is in fact a 1:1 molar ratio in the reaction), then 4.08x10^-5 moles of nicotine will react if all that O2 reacts. Molar mass of nicotine is 166.22 g/mole, so

4.08x10^-5 moles nic x 166.22g/mole x 1000 mg/g = 6.8 mg of nic oxidizing if ALL the O2 in 4 mL headspace reacts.

I think I may have overstated the importance of O2 from added water some years ago here. O2 solubility in water at room temp and 1 atm is about 8 mg/L (0.008g/L). Suppose we add 20% water to 100 mg VG-nic, and we are storing 50 mL of the mixed base in a glass bottle. mg of nic that will oxidize if all the O2 reacts from the added water (10 mL) will be

0.008 g O2/L * 0.010L * 1mole/32g * 1mole nic/1 mole O2 * 166.22 g/mol * 1000 mg/g = 0.4 mg nic oxidized if all the O2 in the water reacts with nic. Less than 1 mg.

O2 solubility in VG is about 2 mg/L. In our 50 mL bottle of VG-nic with 20% water, we have 40 mL of VG (about, there is nic too, but to make it simple). This will lead to oxidation of nic of:

0.002 g O2/L * 0.040L * 1mole/32g * 1mole nic/1 mole O2 * 166.22 g/mol * 1000 mg/g = 0.4 mg nic oxidized if all the O2 in the VG reacts. Same amount as from the 10 mL added water. O2 solubility in PG is about the same as in VG.

Thus, if no O2 gets into the VG-nic from outside, the intrinsic O2 present in the headspace, 20% water and VG will oxidize less than 8 mg of nic total in a 50 mL bottle with 4 mL headspace. Might be enough to give a very slight yellow, but most probably not enough to detect in a DIY e-liquid made from it. And even at room temp, this will take some time.

You cannot remove this intrinsic O2. But it is certainly not enough to be worried about even if it all reacts. Most plastics we use are fairly porous to O2 transport through it from the atmosphere, but while glass is virtually impervious to O2, the plastic caps are not, although they are better than typical dropper bottle plastic (LDPE). This is why even at room temperature, VG-nic in sealed glass bottles lasts a long time without significant coloration. But probably not years. So we cool the nic to slow any reaction from O2 invading through the cap to almost zero. Shrink wrap or electrical tape around the cap might help some, but maybe not much. I don't know, but I don't do this myself.

I store undiluted VG-nic mostly at 100 mg/mL for space reasons, and only in glass. For my VG-nics stored cold after 6.5 years there has been no change. I don't know why one batch of PG-nic I had years ago oxidized to deep yellow-orange after about a year, but to be honest it was not as pure as the nic we generally use today, and might have been oxidized somewhat upon getting it (2009 Totally Wicked Red Label). It was in a deep amber glass 30 mL dropper bottle (rubber surrounding) with child-proof cap that might not have been good at keeping O2 out. Rubber is not good at blocking O2 transport. Other purer PG-nic I have had in better sealed glass did fine for the couple of years I stored it. I haven't had PG-nic in my possession as long as my VG-nic, since I don't vape PG-nic. But others here that have stored pure PG-nic have had good results for multiple years in glass in the freezer.

Conclusion: no matter the DIY-nic you get, get it into well-sealed glass, give a bit of headspace for possible expansion (VG/PG expands with heat), put it in the freezer, and worry about it no more.
 
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Rossum

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OK, there's a batch of samples that are exactly two years old today.

Post #137 in this thread shows them in their original condition (fresh and clear) on June 1, 2017.

Post #392 shows them after 13 months (I missed the one year mark somehow).

Now we have them at two years. Pictures were taken with the same camera, in the same locations, and with conditions as close as possible to the previous posts 11 and 24 months ago.

First in the LED "light box" of the fridge:
ZvWIa3c.jpg


XWPHyCW.jpg


And then in natural lighting (light from north-facing window to the right of the "stage"):
PYeauMR.jpg


dhV8oVF.jpg


Discussion: IMO, the room-temperature samples have darkened noticeably more over the last 11 months, while the freezer samples are pretty much unchanged. I'd happily mix with either of the freezer samples, but not the room-temperature samples!

Glass vs. PET Plastic: I see no real difference between the freezer samples, but at room temperature the glass is clearly winning, and this despite the fact that the plastic sample was never opened while the glass sample was poured and exposed to additional oxygen in the process. One observation I'll make is the dramatic difference in hue between the glass and plastic room temperature samples in the LED lighting of the fridge. The glass sample looks yellow, while the plastic sample looks quite red. I don't know what this means, and don't wish to speculate.

Up in PA I've got a bunch of samples that all passed two years of age this spring, but I wasn't able to be present at that time, and the short time I was up there about a month ago was crazy busy, so fresh pics of those will come at the end of the summer when they're roughly 2-1/2 years old.
 

sofarsogood

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My long term storage bottles are 1 liter amber glass. For mixing I divide the liquid in to 4 250 ml amber glass bottles. Everything stays in the freezer, temperature at 0 degrees, I can't go colder. The last time I mixed was from 4 years old inventory. The liquid showed a hint of yellowing for the first time. Next time i mix I'll take a photo and post here.

I'm planning one more nic buy and procastinating for as long as possible hoping for fresher stock. (but don't get caught by panic buying when some deadline is announced). Should I be considering nic salt just for the sake of shelf life? Does nic salt taste different? I mix 12 mg freebbase and vape at 25 max watts, 420 max temp, single coil stainless around 0.8 ohm mostlyy on an old school rda.
 

Rossum

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The last time I mixed was from 4 years old inventory. The liquid showed a hint of yellowing for the first time. Next time i mix I'll take a photo and post here.
Please do.

My last mix two months ago used nic that was five years old. NN Amor V1 that was never opened since they bottled it. I could detect no degradation in it at all.

Has your nic been opened and closed, or in and out of the freezer?
 

Leo Bak

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Nice work @Rossum

That freezer PET sample looks nowhere near the nicbase of that Dutch guy i referred to a few posts above, colorwise that is.

Could either be a bad batch or less quality PET, we'll never know. To be safe, i'll continue storing in glass in the freezer though. Curious to see how it all looks in 2020.
 
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