Nic salt question

[SP013]

Hi,

I've been reading lots about nic salt and am planning to maybe buy nic salt instead of freebase.
But it would be great to hear some experience from some experienced nic salt users.

Currently I am vaping at 6mg/ml freebase nicotine, my question is, would I feel a difference if I would switch to 6m/ml nic salt? I've read that with nic salt the nicotine is much quicker absorbed and therefor it gives a better nicotine effect on the body.

Thanks,
Sjoerd

 

[Opinionated]

6mg freebase nicotine = 6mg nicotine salts. There is no difference in strength, they are exactly equal.

The confusion for most people lies in the fact that most people are changing the type of device they use (change from sub ohm to MTL devices), and thus are also changing strengths when they switch to salts, and often end up either ingesting more nicotine than they previously had been, or ingesting it differently so it affects them slightly different.

Nicotine salts is simply PH balanced freebase nicotine that is less harsh on your throat, when vaping, and therefore easier to vape in higher concentrations, i.e. if you switch from 18mg freebase to 18mg salts, your throat will thank you...

But at 6 mg it's not going to make any difference for you, most likely...

I switched to salts when I was vaping 18mg freebase and it was a great relief since I have throat problems from 32 years of smoking, but if your vaping 6 mg nicotine and not switching strength or devices, it's not going to have any noticeable effect for you.

It won't hurt anything to try it though, just don't expect much..

 

[Doffy]

It is not a big difference. You'll likely not notice. I certainly don't.

 

[SP013]

And that is the issue with Europe and possibly with the US in the future, we are not able to get stronger than 20 mg/ml nic shots here, that probably also explains why nic salt is not so popular in Europe and generally is quite a bit pricier than freebase.

I was mainly interested in the fact that I often read that the bloodstream picks up nic salt much quicker and therefor the effect is slightly different.

 

[Letitia]

And that is the issue with Europe and possibly with the US in the future, we are not able to get stronger than 20 mg/ml nic shots here, that probably also explains why nic salt is not so popular in Europe and generally is quite a bit pricier than freebase.

I was mainly interested in the fact that I often read that the bloodstream picks up nic salt much quicker and therefor the effect is slightly different.

It isn't much quicker and hardly noticable if at all at 6mg. I mix with salts simply because I dislike th. Salts are more stable and while they will color some they do not get peppery if left out for a longer period of time.

 

[Opinionated]

And that is the issue with Europe and possibly with the US in the future, we are not able to get stronger than 20 mg/ml nic shots here, that probably also explains why nic salt is not so popular in Europe and generally is quite a bit pricier than freebase.

I was mainly interested in the fact that I often read that the bloodstream picks up nic salt much quicker and therefor the effect is slightly different.

Some people may absorb nicotine easier through the mouth and nasal and throat verses a direct lung absorption..

Some people may also just absorb it better..

I think that may be individual. I find 0 difference when using the same strength and same device.. others may have a different effect, as each of our bodies are different.

 

[GOMuniEsq]

And that is the issue with Europe... we are not able to get stronger than 20 mg/ml nic shots here

This is the problem with the arbitrary limits imposed by shortsighted legislation. Though it may have made some sense for big devices at the time, it ended up suppressing innovation and promoting unregulated black markets. The TPD laws are moronic and draconian.

I just bought 250mL of 100mg/mL 50/50 salt nic and plan to phase out freebase nic entirely.

 

[ScottP]

The main thing you will notice is less throat hit. Other than that, I don't notice any difference.

 

[SP013]

there is some EU websites that sell high mg salt but dont really trust those... What i miss in vaping is that nic rush I used to get from smoking and that is due to the low mg of nic in my juices, but wanting to get higher nic is just hard with 10ml shots of 18 mg.. Even if the EU would allow 32mg/ml would be great, and increase the qty of those crappy mini bottles. thank you all for your advice!

 

[Doffy]

there is some EU websites that sell high mg salt but dont really trust those... What i miss in vaping is that nic rush I used to get from smoking and that is due to the low mg of nic in my juices, but wanting to get higher nic is just hard with 10ml shots of 18 mg.. Even if the EU would allow 32mg/ml would be great, and increase the qty of those crappy mini bottles. thank you all for your advice!

you could try Whole Tobacco Alkaloids eliquid (WTA)

 

[Vapntime]

...

 

[Vapntime]

...

 

[DeloresRose]

And that is the issue with Europe and possibly with the US in the future, we are not able to get stronger than 20 mg/ml nic shots here, that probably also explains why nic salt is not so popular in Europe and generally is quite a bit pricier than freebase.

I was mainly interested in the fact that I often read that the bloodstream picks up nic salt much quicker and therefor the effect is slightly different.

I use both freebase and salts.

The difference I notice is, at higher levels, salts are less harsh to vape. Not much different at 6 mg that I can tell.

It does seem that they enter the blood stream faster. Purely anecdotal.

I use 25 mg in a pod, and 6 mg sub ohm. So, I’m getting a lot more vapor sub ohm and it would be impossible to say how much the nic I get is from one method or the other, but it’s probably not really all that different.

But it does seem salts kick in faster - which can be helpful. But it also seems they fade more quickly.

Thing is for me, 6 mg sub ohm is plenty most of the day, as I find dl more satisfying somehow than mtl. But when I’ve been without any nic for a spell - like waking up in the am, or being stuck somewhere I can’t vape - I need a little more and fast. And the pod and salts are great for that. A boost. Then I go back to my 6 mg.

See, I’m still struggling to stay smoke free though. First time I switched to vaping I didn’t have this problem. Once I’d quit, I was fine. This time it’s been tough. The salts are a god send, although I only use maybe one ml a week. A couple pod puffs and I got this.

 

[score69]

As has been mentioned at 6mg levels, you aren't really going to notice a difference. Unless you experience TH from 6mg freebase nic, not everyone does.

Honestly, for a given strength of nic I can't see why the freebase wouldn't absorb more quickly than the salts. The freebase is in a more fat soluable form which allows it to absorb and cross into the CNS more quickly.

So I think the claim of faster absorption of salts comes from comparing different strengths of FB and nic salts. For example, if you are vaping 12mg FB, and 30mg salts, then yes, the 30mg salts will get into your system more quickly since it's more concentrated/high amount. Since salts have lower TH, they are typically used in higher strengths than FB. So claims of quicker blood levels would be true in that case. But if you are using the same concentration of FB and salts, my money would be on the freebase getting into your system more quickly.

I could be wrong, but I'm a pharmacist and the absorption characteristics of the freebase form would lend to it absorbing more quickly than salts.

Just my two cents. Personally I feel freebase actually absorbs more quickly (more bioavailable), but salts used in higher concentrations will result in quicker blood levels because it's a larger amount of nicotine.

I've not done any research specifically with nicotine, so I could be wrong. Based on how other drugs work though, absorption of the freebase into the CNS should be more efficient than the salts.

Other 'unmentionable' substances that can be smoked/vaped are well known to be used in freebase form for this reason. Some of them are actually unusable (from a practical perspective) as salts.

 

[Vapntime]

Well, I will try again...

"For drug administration, animals were given intraperitoneal injections to achieve the indicated doses of nicotine bitartrate (0.1, 0.5 or 1.5 mg/kg, which are equivalent to 0.033, 0.17 and 0.5 mg/kg free-base nicotine)".

Mechanisms Involved in Systemic Nicotine-Induced Glutamatergic Synaptic Plasticity on Dopamine Neurons in the Ventral Tegmental Area

The equivalency changes with what acids are used. Around 40-60%.

You need to increase your mg with nic salt otherwise there is little benefit because you are not meeting even your freebase mg.

We just need a chemist or company to set it straight for vapers. I really do think the reason why it remains a mystery is because we can be charged more for nicotine salt even though its freebase equivalency or 'elemental' nicotine is less than 100mg/ml. It does contain 1 gram of pure nic per litre however it also contains a percentage of the acid/s being used.

 

[Doffy]

Take away from this thread:

Try 6mg salts. Adjust to preference

 

[charlie1465]

there is some EU websites that sell high mg salt but dont really trust those... What i miss in vaping is that nic rush I used to get from smoking and that is due to the low mg of nic in my juices, but wanting to get higher nic is just hard with 10ml shots of 18 mg.. Even if the EU would allow 32mg/ml would be great, and increase the qty of those crappy mini bottles. thank you all for your advice!

If you can get yourself some higher strength freebase nic then you can make yourself salts in any strength you like.

In my view you will likely notice no effect at the lower end of the strength scale as compared to freebase eg. 6mg/ml freebase to 6mg/ml salts but you will at the higher strengths.

Don't get me wrong its not a life changing effect but when i vape my pod with 36mg/ml first thing in the morning I definitely get that relaxed aaaaah feeling similar to smoking the killer sticks....my advice would be to get yourself some high strength freebase and make it yourself.

I have a thread here Making your own DIY salt nic with benzoic acid.

 

[charlie1465]

Well, I will try again...

"For drug administration, animals were given intraperitoneal injections to achieve the indicated doses of nicotine bitartrate (0.1, 0.5 or 1.5 mg/kg, which are equivalent to 0.033, 0.17 and 0.5 mg/kg free-base nicotine)".

Mechanisms Involved in Systemic Nicotine-Induced Glutamatergic Synaptic Plasticity on Dopamine Neurons in the Ventral Tegmental Area

The equivalency changes with what acids are used. Around 40-60%.

You need to increase your mg with nic salt otherwise there is little benefit because you are not meeting even your freebase mg.

We just need a chemist or company to set it straight for vapers. I really do think the reason why it remains a mystery is because we can be charged more for nicotine salt even though its freebase equivalency or 'elemental' nicotine is less than 100mg/ml. It does contain 1 gram of pure nic per litre however it also contains a percentage of the acid/s being used.

Hi Vapetime

Yes I think we crossed swords on this before

I'm going to read through this article and see where I am afterwards....

Often the problem with extrapolating useful information from these types of studies is the different susceptibility/absorption coefficient/bio-availability between the different species

 

[Izan]

Well, I will try again...

"For drug administration, animals were given intraperitoneal injections to achieve the indicated doses of nicotine bitartrate (0.1, 0.5 or 1.5 mg/kg, which are equivalent to 0.033, 0.17 and 0.5 mg/kg free-base nicotine)".

Mechanisms Involved in Systemic Nicotine-Induced Glutamatergic Synaptic Plasticity on Dopamine Neurons in the Ventral Tegmental Area

The equivalency changes with what acids are used. Around 40-60%.

You need to increase your mg with nic salt otherwise there is little benefit because you are not meeting even your freebase mg.

We just need a chemist or company to set it straight for vapers. I really do think the reason why it remains a mystery is because we can be charged more for nicotine salt even though its freebase equivalency or 'elemental' nicotine is less than 100mg/ml. It does contain 1 gram of pure nic per litre however it also contains a percentage of the acid/s being used.

So If I understand correctly;
Freebase is pure, salts have been "stepped-on".
Of course you need to use more of the "cut" because it is a lower concentration/more dilute.

I try to avoid buying adulterated product.

Cheers
I

 

[charlie1465]

So If I understand correctly;
Freebase is pure, salts have been "stepped-on".
Of course you need to use more of the "cut" because it is a lower concentration/more dilute.

I try to avoid buying adulterated product.

Cheers
I

No this is not correct...the OP is trying to say that the salts are less bio-available/absorbable than freebase and therefore an equivalent amount of salt nic is less effective in terms of the nic hit experienced.