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Okay, I guess a less than 48 hour threat is enough to prove your point:
If I want to do a "true" side-by-side comparison of freebase to salt form; should I be doing a:
1 (freebase): to 1 (nic salt)
or
a 1 (freebase): to 2 (nic salt)
or
?
In other words, if I have a commercial "50mg/mL" nic salt e-liquid; should I be mixing a 50mg/mL freebase, or a 25mg/mL freebase blend, to compare possible similar effects?
I am not thrilled about either choice, but I am willing to take one for the team, in the name of anecdotal science (wait... Juul based their patent on a one-person study). I currently have a pod rig (an OVNS JC01), that I am using a commercial "50mg/mL nic salt" e-liquid in. I am willing to mix an equivalent (per your specifications) freebase e-liquid, and share my singular (a.k.a. "worthless") opinion.
This is my serious beef. I want to know what the final nicotine content is. Not what it was before acid additions, or any other sort of diluent. What is it now... in its final state. When I buy non-nic salt e-liquids, and it says Xmg/mL, I expect it to contain Xmg/mL. Why can't/shouldn't "salt" e-liquids be the same?
The answer to that question is not difficult....when freebase has 50mg/ml that is an accurate representation of its nic content..
When nic salt says 50mg/ml that is also an accurate representation of it's nic content.
What @Vapntime seems to be saying is that the chemical absorption/uptake by humans is less effective when in nic salt form....and here's the important bit.....''And that still doesn't negate its uptake/absorption being higher in a shorter delay.
Eg.....nic salts hit harder.....
I hope this makes sense....not sure which side of the fence i'm on but we could certainly test this (very unscientifically) if someone is prepared to vape say 36mg/ml freebase and 36mg/ml salts in identical devices and for the same amount of time or quantity.
If @Vapntime is correct then we would expect the subject to get nic sick far more quickly and with less quantity using freebase as against salts. Obviously, you would nee to test on different days
It depends what acid/s are used for the actual freebase equivalent. I'm pretty sure benzoic acid is around 50% freebase but it can range from around 30-60%.
I vape 8-9mg standard freebase and around 15-18mg nic salt (subohm). I have to get at least 8-9mg freebase from the nic salt otherwise their will be no salt benefits. So in nic salt form the actual freebase (around 8-9mg)(say 18mg nic salt) freebase nicotine is being absorbed better than than the same amount of standard freebase alone into my lungs, hence quicker and faster hit and spike in blood levels etc etc.
I vape 8-9mg standard freebase and around 15-18mg nic salt (subohm). I have to get at least 8-9mg freebase from the nic salt otherwise their will be no salt benefits. So in nic salt form the actual freebase (around 8-9mg)(say 18mg nic salt) freebase nicotine is being absorbed better than than the same amount of standard freebase alone into my lungs, hence quicker and faster hit and spike in blood levels etc etc.
The answer to that question is not difficult....when freebase has 50mg/ml that is an accurate representation of its nic content..
When nic salt says 50mg/ml that is also an accurate representation of it's nic content.
What @Vapntime seems to be saying is that the chemical absorption/uptake by humans is less effective when in nic salt form....and here's the important bit.....''And that still doesn't negate its uptake/absorption being higher in a shorter delay.
Eg.....nic salts hit harder.....
I hope this makes sense....not sure which side of the fence i'm on but we could certainly test this (very unscientifically) if someone is prepared to vape say 36mg/ml freebase and 36mg/ml salts in identical devices and for the same amount of time or quantity.
If @Vapntime is correct then we would expect the subject to get nic sick far more quickly and with less quantity using freebase as against salts. Obviously, you would nee to test on different days
18mg of freebase makes me nauseous. 18mg of nic salt does not. Its not a theory..
The interesting thing to test is by what % is it better absorbed by and what is the difference in each of the acids.
Neither 18mg salts nor 18mg freebase makes me nauseated (this is what I used to vape), and when vaping 18mg freebase I found no difference whatsoever when I switched to salts.. it was 1:1 with the exception that salts were far more mild on my throat..
So perhaps there was some kind of allergic reaction you were having to the freebase.
You have to consider your own bodies reactions, I'm NOT alone in my reactions, just saying.
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We definitely need someone like you @Opinionated to test this as stated in my earlier post. I don't think that @Vapntime should be involved as we need someone to be totally subjective and un biased.....what about it?
I might think about doing it but just not in the next few days...two reviews for Voopoo to finish and then I am going to play with my new Billet Box
So do we just ignore the scientific statements and move on. Or do we believe it was because its a piece of brain matter from a different species that the researchers would not indicate within the methods that this was different to anything normal than we know of nicotine and or nicotine salt dosages lol.
"For drug administration, animals were given intraperitoneal injections to achieve the indicated doses of nicotine bitartrate (0.1, 0.5 or 1.5 mg/kg, which are equivalent to 0.033, 0.17 and 0.5 mg/kg free-base nicotine)".
Maybe some of you should actually enquire on the subject with an actual chemist instead of throwing around worthless weight on a an old forum that hasn't retained its excellent knowledgable educated professional members of yesteryear lol.
"For drug administration, animals were given intraperitoneal injections to achieve the indicated doses of nicotine bitartrate (0.1, 0.5 or 1.5 mg/kg, which are equivalent to 0.033, 0.17 and 0.5 mg/kg free-base nicotine)".
Maybe some of you should actually enquire on the subject with an actual chemist instead of throwing around worthless weight on a an old forum that hasn't retained its excellent knowledgable educated professional members of yesteryear lol.
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Reason for edit: I really can't be bothered anymore. Bye ECF...
Reason for edit: I really can't be bothered anymore. Bye ECF...
I vape salts in my DIY, freebase when i buy commercial juice. The resistance and wattage are determined ONLY by which tank im using. Right now, im using my tfv12 cloud king with a .15ohm coil and...lookout...135 watts. And im vaping my own mix. Nic salt level is somewhere between 6 and 9 mg (cant be bothered to measure exact amount). Therefore , by extrapolation, one can use salt OR freebase pretty much any way one would want to. Period. I have trouble understanding why this concept is so hard for people to understand .
We disagree. This is not reason to leave ECF.
You have argued for months that there is a higher nicotine content in freebase. You are using your own body to "prove" this when manufacturers state otherwise.
How your body processes the nicotine in either form truly is individual, even the study you showed which attempted to discuss bioavailability said they couldn't be terribly firm in their results because testing such a thing is nigh on impossible..
So I didn't find your impression compelling in light of my own physical reactions, but this doesn't mean "leave the forum" it means oh well, you disagree..
I disagree with a very large portion of this forum about the necessity of TC, and I disagree most vehemently.. but I don't leave the forum over it - ask @Katya - I just avoid the discussions and we all get along fine.. lol..
It's life, we won't always agree dear.
Someone dissed wearing crocs once. I was hurt, I admit it, but I'm still here.
How am I using my own body to prove this? You people are daft, its the chemistry of nicotine salts. There is 1 gram of nicotine in each litre of nicotine salt. I am talking about equivalency. Something most of you cannot grasp. I'm not leaving ECF over this, I've just had enough of forums in general taking up my time.
Well manufacturers disagree with you, they absolutely contend they aren't lying to people on their labelling, as it's illegal.
If they label that something has 100mg/ml of nicotine in it, then it has 100mg/ml of actual nicotine in it and not a nicotine "salts" compound that has a lesser amount of nicotine in it than its freebase counterpart.
We can, and do, know how much nicotine we are getting, and don't have to become chemists or jump through mathematical hoops in order to figure it out, as it's written right on the label.
It doesn't make us "daft"
"...commercial labels on e-liquid products currently provide little compositional information, and these labels certainly do not indicate αfb (actual free base*) values".
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.chemrestox.8b00097
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.chemrestox.8b00097
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@Vapntime....look if you want to discuss the differing absorption rates between nicotine bitartrate and freebase nicotine that's one thing but I think that the confusion here is arising because of the fact that whether the nicotine is in a freebase or a bitartrate form it is still nicotine...
From your link...
''But, JUUL adds benzoic acid to its e-cigarette liquids, which reduces free-base nicotine proportion while maintaining the total nicotine delivery''.
Eg the total nicotine delivery is the mix of freebase nic and nicotine bitartrate which makes up the nicotine constituents in a bottle of nic salts. There is, fairly obviously, always freebase still in suspension because pushing the chemical reaction until there was none would lmost certainly lead to the presence of un-reacted benzoic acid solution in the final mix. Something that would be highly undesirable.
Happy Easter by the way
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