Nic salt question

[Izan]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/medica...-free-base-nicotine-electronic-cigarettes.amp

Link to actual study:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.chemrestox.8b00097

TL;DR,
Everyone has been testing nicotine incorrectly since testing began.
We found what BT found; reduced harshness increases consumption.
That is why the kids are Juuling. See, we proved it.
Great study!


Cheers
I

 

[ScottP]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/medica...-free-base-nicotine-electronic-cigarettes.amp

This article touches on why I have always believed freebase to salts is a 1:1 equivalency. They add the acid to an already known quantity, so the resulting quantity is still known. I mean if you have a bottle of say 100mg/ml nic freebase, then add the acid to covert it to salts, there is still 100 mg/ml of nic, it's just the total molecular weight of that nic is now slightly higher due to the added atoms, but the nic concentration in the liquid remains the same.

 

[IDJoel]

I mean if you have a bottle of say 100mg/ml nic freebase, then add the acid to covert it to salts, there is still 100 mg/ml of nic, it's just the total molecular weight of that nic is now slightly higher due to the added atoms, but the nic concentration in the liquid remains the same.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. Yes; you start out with 1,000mg (total) of nicotine (10ml x 10mg/mL = 1,000mg total), and you finish up with 1,000mg (total) of nicotine. But, by adding acid, one is adding volume/mass... which in turn, is reducing the final "mg/mL" result.

-- If I have 10mL of 100mg/mL nic ( or 1,000mg nicotine total),
-- and I want to create nicotine salt by adding the same 1,000mg total of an acid (Benzoic acid for the example's discussion) to achieve a 50:50 ratio( or 50%),
-- I must add 0.8mL (approximately; actual is 0.78995mL) of pure Benzoic acid (based on Wiki data of Benzoic having a density of 1.2659 g/cm3 (15 °C). 1 cubic centimeter = 1milliliter. And, this does not account for any additional dilution.)
-- The result is now 10.8mL of material (the original nic base + the added acid); which still only has 1,000mg of nicotine.
-- 1,000mg nic ÷ 10.8 = 92.59mg/mL. Or, 7.41% less than the original concentration.

Granted, this is not a huge difference (<8%), but... it is different. And, if the acid of choice is first diluted (to create a liquid solution), that extra diluent will further reduce the concentration of nicotine. So, if I am using PG as a solvent, and I can only achieve maximum solubility of 20% acid (20% acid: 80%PG). I would have to add 4mg (0.8mg acid + 3.2mg PG); resulting in 14mL of solution (still containing 1,000mg total nic), or 71.43mg/mL (1,000mg ÷ 14mL = 71.428mg/mL; or, 28.57% less).

It isn't as drastic as if I were protonating pure nic (which would reduce the original concentration to roughly 60%... assuming there was no additional solvents used). But, I think you can still agree, it doesn't result in a true 1:1 (1mg/mL:1mg/mL) result.

Is it significant enough for the average home DIYer to care about? That, I would have to say, is up to the end user to decide. If one is of the "close enough" camp; I can respect that.

Disclaimer: I used rather liberal (in other words; careless) rounding of numbers in my above example. Some numbers (like max solubility) I entirely made up. Please don't use this example for actual mixing. Please carefully, and thoroughly, do your own research and work through the math yourself before attempting any mixing (`cause my math generally stinks).

 

[ScottP]

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. Yes; you start out with 1,000mg (total) of nicotine (10ml x 10mg/mL = 1,000mg total), and you finish up with 1,000mg (total) of nicotine. But, by adding acid, one is adding volume/mass... which in turn, is reducing the final "mg/mL" result.

-- If I have 10mL of 100mg/mL nic ( or 1,000mg nicotine total),
-- and I want to create nicotine salt by adding the same 1,000mg total of an acid (Benzoic acid for the example's discussion) to achieve a 50:50 ratio( or 50%),
-- I must add 0.8mL (approximately; actual is 0.78995mL) of pure Benzoic acid (based on Wiki data of Benzoic having a density of 1.2659 g/cm3 (15 °C). 1 cubic centimeter = 1milliliter. And, this does not account for any additional dilution.)
-- The result is now 10.8mL of material (the original nic base + the added acid); which still only has 1,000mg of nicotine.
-- 1,000mg nic ÷ 10.8 = 92.59mg/mL. Or, 7.41% less than the original concentration.

Granted, this is not a huge difference (<8%), but... it is different. And, if the acid of choice is first diluted (to create a liquid solution), that extra diluent will further reduce the concentration of nicotine. So, if I am using PG as a solvent, and I can only achieve maximum solubility of 20% acid (20% acid: 80%PG). I would have to add 4mg (0.8mg acid + 3.2mg PG); resulting in 14mL of solution (still containing 1,000mg total nic), or 71.43mg/mL (1,000mg ÷ 14mL = 71.428mg/mL; or, 28.57% less).

It isn't as drastic as if I were protonating pure nic (which would reduce the original concentration to roughly 60%... assuming there was no additional solvents used). But, I think you can still agree, it doesn't result in a true 1:1 (1mg/mL:1mg/mL) result.

Is it significant enough for the average home DIYer to care about? That, I would have to say, is up to the end user to decide. If one is of the "close enough" camp; I can respect that.

Disclaimer: I used rather liberal (in other words; careless) rounding of numbers in my above example. Some numbers (like max solubility) I entirely made up. Please don't use this example for actual mixing. Please carefully, and thoroughly, do your own research and work through the math yourself before attempting any mixing (`cause my math generally stinks).

While you are correct that there would be some level of dilution, it would not be too difficult to compensate by using a slightly higher concentration of nic to start. I am fairly sure than manufacturers take this into account when making the raw nic concentrate. That stuff is done in real labs by businesses that have a reputation to maintain. They often have independent labs test samples and provide reports to accuracy. Even if they don't by the time I dilute it down to vaping levels (3mg of salts + 3mg of fb) the difference would be negligible. I mean I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 6mg/ml and 5.8mg/ml when vaping.

As a side note, your math is correct based on the formula and numbers you used, but the assumption of a 1:1 ratio means the numbers you started with are not correct. The proper way to calculate it would be first to calculate the number of nic molecules it takes to make up 1000mg (1g) then figure out how many molecules of BA it would take to protonize those nic molecules (my assumption is that 1 BA molecule can protonize 6 nicotine molecules, 1 for each hydrogen atom in the BA), then calculate the weight of that number of BA molecules. That is how to determine the correct ratio to use. Then finally you convert that weight to the volume based on density. So you will need to know the Mole Mass of both molecules and use the Avogadro Constant to calculate this. It is 1:40am for me and this is more math that I am willing to do tonight , but my guess is the actual weight of BA needed will be slightly more than 1g. Just for fun, I'll do the actual math tomorrow and post back here.

 

[IDJoel]

While you are correct that there would be some level of dilution, it would not be too difficult to compensate by using a slightly higher concentration of nic to start.

Agreed.

I am fairly sure than manufacturers take this into account when making the raw nic concentrate.

I would hope so. Though, after seeing a couple of more than questionable "professional" labs shown on YouTube (yes; I'm thinking of Boba's ), I would not bet money on it any more. However, I agree, with third-party testing and reporting, it should be relatively accurate.

As a side note, your math is correct based on the formula and numbers you used, but the assumption of a 1:1 ratio means the numbers you started with are not correct.

My only misgiving with the original statement was; that you could start out with a specific mg/mL in a defined volume, add something to it (additional volume w/o additional nic), and remain at the same mg/mL. At least that is what I interpreted:

I mean if you have a bottle of say 100mg/ml nic freebase, then add the acid to covert it to salts, there is still 100 mg/ml of nic,

to mean. If I read that incorrectly; then I apologize.
And, yes; my numbers should not be used as a mixing guide by anyone. That was entirely my reasoning when I added my disclaimer at the end of my post... I am no authority for DIYing salts.

The proper way to calculate it would be first to calculate the number of nic molecules....

You are now speaking well beyond my 40+ year-old high school chemistry class. And, I will gratefully yield to those who can follow it, and discuss it with some intelligence... as I can't. I do appreciate your taking your time and trying to explain it to me. That was very kind. I am sure there are those who will follow your reasoning. I "kinda/sorta/not really" understand it. But that is likely when I am at my most dangerous.

Just for fun, I'll do the actual math tomorrow and post back here.

If/when you do work it out; I would be interested to see what the real numbers say. Thanks for doing the grunt work (and knowing what to do)!

 

[ScottP]

WARNING: This post contains lots of chemistry related math and many assumptions. It is intended for educational purposes only.

OK as I previously mentioned, you have to calculate the amount of BA that should be used at the molecular level. In other words, calculate the number of nicotine molecules in the solution and how many BA molecules that it would take to protonate that number of nicotine molecules. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that 1 molecule of BA can protonate 6 molecules of nicotine, 1 for each of the hydrogen atoms in it.

Let's put some math to this. To make the proper calculations you need to know the Molar mass of each molecule as well as the Avogadro Constant. See the "APPENDIX" section at the bottom of this post.

If we have 10ml of a 100mg/ml solution or 1000mg (1g) of nicotine total which has a Molar mass of 162.23g/mol, that means there are 1g / 162.23g/mol = 0.006164088023177 mols of nicotine (rounded to 15 decimal places). Now multiplying that by the Avogadro Constant we get 0.006164088023177 mols * 6.022 * 10^23 = roughly 3712 * 10^18 molecules of nicotine in 1g (rounded). If my assertion that 1 molecule of BA can protonate 6 molecules of nicotine is correct, that means we would need roughly 619 * 10^18 molecules of BA (Note: 3712 / 6 = 618.66666-repeating) . Now if we divide that by the Avogadro Constant we get (619 * 10^18) / (6.022 * 10^23) = 0.001027897708403 (rounded to 15 decimal places) mols of BA required. Finally, we we multiply this by the Molar mass of BA to get 0.001027897708403 mols * 122.123g/mol = 0.12553g or 125.53mg of BA required. To calculate the displacement in ml(cm3) we multiply the density by the amount we are using 1.01g/cm3 * 0.12553g = 0.1267853ml displacement. So as it turns out is barely more than 1/10th of a ml.

Let me put this into perspective. With a density of 1.2659, 125mg of BA would be roughly 1/39th of a teaspoon. Imagine a measuring teaspoon (not a tablespoon) and divide that by 39. It's literally just a few tiny grains. If you add that to a 10ml bottle, would you even be able to tell you changed anything?

NOTES:
There are several assumptions made here, so even this may not be 100% correct.

• The assumption was made that the BA protonates 1 molecule of nicotine for each of the 6 hydrogen atoms in the BA. While this is a very common way that acids can protonate a base, it is not the only way, so this could be wrong. I could not find any data anywhere that stated how BA protonates nicotine online.
• The assumption was made that it would only take 1 proton per nicotine molecule. It could be that it takes more than one proton per nicotine molecule. Again there doesn't seem to be any published data around this.
• The reason for the lack of data is likely because this is a patented formula from JUUL. This also means that other commercially available nic salts may or may not use something completely different as the acid.
• All of the math and results above are specific to Benzoic Acid and if anything else is used, everything would need to be recalculated.
• If someone is trying to use this method to create a recipe to convert freebase to salts, I strongly suggest to not aim for 100% conversion because you do not want to end up with excess acid in the final solution.
• Also just because you added BA (or any other acid) to a solution containing nicotine does not mean that the nicotine was automatically protonated. It may be required to heat the solution to a certain temperature, or add some other catalyst. Again this is a JUUL propriatary recipe. For this reason I suggest buying premade nic salts and not trying to DIY.
• The purpose of this post is strictly educational and is intended to demonstrate how one might calculate the proper amount of acid to add to a solution to create salts once it is known how the chosen acid will protonate the nicotine base.

APPENDIX:
Benzoic acid C7H6O2
Density: 1.2659 g/cm3
Molar mass: 122.123 g/mol

Nicotine C10H14N2
Density: 1.01 g/cm3
Molar mass: 162.23 g/mol

Avogadro Constant
6.022 x 10^23

There are 4.928922ml in 1 US teaspoon

 

[Doffy]

WARNING: This post contains lots of chemistry related math and many assumptions. It is intended for educational purposes only.

OK as I previously mentioned, you have to calculate the amount of BA that should be used at the molecular level. In other words, calculate the number of nicotine molecules in the solution and how many BA molecules that it would take to protonate that number of nicotine molecules. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that 1 molecule of BA can protonate 6 molecules of nicotine, 1 for each of the hydrogen atoms in it.

Let's put some math to this. To make the proper calculations you need to know the Molar mass of each molecule as well as the Avogadro Constant. See the "APPENDIX" section at the bottom of this post.

If we have 10ml of a 100mg/ml solution or 1000mg (1g) of nicotine total which has a Molar mass of 162.23g/mol, that means there are 1g / 162.23g/mol = 0.006164088023177 mols of nicotine (rounded to 15 decimal places). Now multiplying that by the Avogadro Constant we get 0.006164088023177 mols * 6.022 * 10^23 = roughly 3712 * 10^18 molecules of nicotine in 1g (rounded). If my assertion that 1 molecule of BA can protonate 6 molecules of nicotine is correct, that means we would need roughly 619 * 10^18 molecules of BA (Note: 3712 / 6 = 618.66666-repeating) . Now if we divide that by the Avogadro Constant we get (619 * 10^18) / (6.022 * 10^23) = 0.001027897708403 (rounded to 15 decimal places) mols of BA required. Finally, we we multiply this by the Molar mass of BA to get 0.001027897708403 mols * 122.123g/mol = 0.12553g or 125.53mg of BA required. To calculate the displacement in ml(cm3) we multiply the density by the amount we are using 1.01g/cm3 * 0.12553g = 0.1267853ml displacement. So as it turns out is barely more than 1/10th of a ml.

Let me put this into perspective. With a density of 1.2659, 125mg of BA would be roughly 1/39th of a teaspoon. Imagine a measuring teaspoon (not a tablespoon) and divide that by 39. It's literally just a few tiny grains. If you add that to a 10ml bottle, would you even be able to tell you changed anything?

NOTES:
There are several assumptions made here, so even this may not be 100% correct.

• The assumption was made that the BA protonates 1 molecule of nicotine for each of the 6 hydrogen atoms in the BA. While this is a very common way that acids can protonate a base, it is not the only way, so this could be wrong. I could not find any data anywhere that stated how BA protonates nicotine online.
• The assumption was made that it would only take 1 proton per nicotine molecule. It could be that it takes more than one proton per nicotine molecule. Again there doesn't seem to be any published data around this.
• The reason for the lack of data is likely because this is a patented formula from JUUL. This also means that other commercially available nic salts may or may not use something completely different as the acid.
• All of the math and results above are specific to Benzoic Acid and if anything else is used, everything would need to be recalculated.
• If someone is trying to use this method to create a recipe to convert freebase to salts, I strongly suggest to not aim for 100% conversion because you do not want to end up with excess acid in the final solution.
• Also just because you added BA (or any other acid) to a solution containing nicotine does not mean that the nicotine was automatically protonated. It may be required to heat the solution to a certain temperature, or add some other catalyst. Again this is a JUUL propriatary recipe. For this reason I suggest buying premade nic salts and not trying to DIY.
• The purpose of this post is strictly educational and is intended to demonstrate how one might calculate the proper amount of acid to add to a solution to create salts once it is known how the chosen acid will protonate the nicotine base.

APPENDIX:
Benzoic acid C7H6O2
Density: 1.2659 g/cm3
Molar mass: 122.123 g/mol

Nicotine C10H14N2
Density: 1.01 g/cm3
Molar mass: 162.23 g/mol

Avogadro Constant
6.022 x 10^23

There are 4.928922ml in 1 US teaspoon

It also seems to have settled the argument?

Guessing that the silence means you won that?

 

[IDJoel]

No argument.

Scott's post was just so far beyond my comprehension, I couldn't begin to formulate an intelligent question, let alone try to discuss it.

BTW: that was a nice write-up @ScottP. Thanks for doing the grunt work; and taking the time to share your results with the rest of us.

 

[TonyD64]

Here is my question. I want to try Unflavored NicSalt to see if the flavorings are causing some headaches I've been getting. Has anyone bought the Unflavored from My Freedom Smokes and did they like it. The price seems very reasonable. I would be buying the 50% PG/50% VG at 50mg

 

[Vapntime]

Lol

From the chemical perspective nicotine malate is a very similar to the nicotine salt that occurs naturally in tobacco leaves. Therefore it is very biocompatible and well-absorbed into the human organism.

Nicotine malate is formed by combining pure nicotine with malic acid. Both ingredients are 100% natural – pure nicotine is obtained from tobacco leaves and malic acid, is present in apples and many other fruits.
– 100% natural!
– white crystal form
– freebase nicotine content: around 54.75%
– leaves delicate aftertaste
– malic acid is a very popular ingredient used in natural cosmetics and food industry

New! Nicotine malate salt. - CHEMNOVATIC

NicSalt Nicotine Salt; 1kg | CHEMNOVATIC

 

[kross8]

As has been mentioned at 6mg levels, you aren't really going to notice a difference. Unless you experience TH from 6mg freebase nic, not everyone does.

Honestly, for a given strength of nic I can't see why the freebase wouldn't absorb more quickly than the salts. The freebase is in a more fat soluable form which allows it to absorb and cross into the CNS more quickly.

So I think the claim of faster absorption of salts comes from comparing different strengths of FB and nic salts. For example, if you are vaping 12mg FB, and 30mg salts, then yes, the 30mg salts will get into your system more quickly since it's more concentrated/high amount. Since salts have lower TH, they are typically used in higher strengths than FB. So claims of quicker blood levels would be true in that case. But if you are using the same concentration of FB and salts, my money would be on the freebase getting into your system more quickly.

I could be wrong, but I'm a pharmacist and the absorption characteristics of the freebase form would lend to it absorbing more quickly than salts.

Just my two cents. Personally I feel freebase actually absorbs more quickly (more bioavailable), but salts used in higher concentrations will result in quicker blood levels because it's a larger amount of nicotine.

I've not done any research specifically with nicotine, so I could be wrong. Based on how other drugs work though, absorption of the freebase into the CNS should be more efficient than the salts.

Other 'unmentionable' substances that can be smoked/vaped are well known to be used in freebase form for this reason. Some of them are actually unusable (from a practical perspective) as salts.

I noticed you mention you are a pharmacist.. All of my life (growing up on organic farm) I have struggled with allergies of all kinds. I had to avoid the crop harvest etc and stick to the animal side.. Because my skin would go nuts around plants.. Now I could eat veggies and love them.. But recently a Dr said my problem wasn't the "pollen" that I was blaming but instead the nightshade aspect.. I noticed on some video about freebase nicotine vs salt nic a major dif in ph levels... Where salt nic maybe more friendly to my body. Your thoughts?

Edit- for now I'm on a no plant diet.. Carnivore mostly.. Very healing. I seem to be able to handle processed food(yes it pains me to say that!) Processed as in applesauce but no apples. Etc ...veggies exposed to high heat like microwave or boiling...nothing raw. (Salads used to be my favorite breakfast..but I feel really good now without veggies..again this pains me to say as I have always loved veggies.