Nicotine absorbtion from vaping research

[Kate]

'... fast-acting free-base form given by cigs ...' That might be the answer, maybe it takes more than five minutes to get into the bloodstream.

I don't know but those results do not reflect my experience at all. I never got buzzy with roll ups but anything over 11mg eliquid makes me buzzy.

I got terrible palpitations with a couple of minutes of 36 once.

 

[Kate]

I was asked to issue a warning by Dr Eissenberg about nicotine. It's what we already know about lethal doses and being careful but it's from a professional to us and should be posted:

"... *please* be careful handling the liquid that goes into these cartridges, and also ask your colleagues to do the same. The lethal dose of nicotine for an adult human is 40-60 milligrams and, if we are to believe the manufacturers, 2-3 cartridges contain about that dose, and the bottles of liquid that can be purchased over the internet contain much higher doses. Nicotine can be absorbed through the skin and acute nicotine poisoning is a very painful (and totally unnecessary) way to die. Keep the cartridges away from children and pets, and don't handle the liquid or use gloves if you must."

 

[katink]

My own experience, and I have heard it from others also: when you first start vaping, what really stands out is the feel of the nicotine: it is very clean nicotine. I think this might have to do why, even if plasma-levels might be low, it performs better somehow.
Just my feeling, can't corroborate with evidence but it has been my feeling on the nicotine. Perhaps, because of this, less nicotine 'does' more...
(Plus of course this is a good explanation why we vape a lot more then we smoked - simply takes more vaping to get what we want/need)

Lets not forget that the e-cig WORKS for oh so many... this means it is enough for all those that manage to convert to e-cigs. Lets not translate this into 'oh, now it suddenly doesn't show to be working, lets take more'. In fact, that this works for so many while showing less in the blood, should make us happy. This opens much better perspectives to get this approved through which-ever way (who knows, maybe even the homeopathic route would offer a better chance knowing this?) Lets not 'waste it away'...

 

[Xeon1979]

Tropical bob has been saying this for a long time now. it looks like he was correct. I would take the word of a guy who is severely hooked on nicotine.

People here are saying pure nicotine. what if it is the opposite. what if the nicotine in e-cigs is not pure. or its another chemical or reaction all together that are giving people the nicotine overdose symptoms.

 

[Tugger]

If you want to see if the overdose symptoms are from something else, just have someone who gets these symptoms vape the amount of 0nic juice that would normally give those symptoms. I'm a little dubious myself.

And the fact that most of us vape all day totally lines up with the research, we're just trying to normalize the blood nicotine concentration we're used to. I always thought it was strange that unless I'm drinking, I really don't want to smoke for at least an hour or two, but I pretty much want to vape all day long. It never made any sense.

 

[LuckySevens4U]

Okay my brain isn't working here......I'm tired....is this news good or bad? Is it saying that we have to vape a TON more to get the amount of nic out of a ciggy?

 

[Tugger]

Lucky, yes, by about 10 times as much it looks like, which is scary for a number of reasons, the most obvious of which is that lots of people report symptoms of nicotine overdose vaping less than twice as much nicotine as we're used to.

Lotta questions here.

 

[Drewsworld]

I think the thing that we are overlooking here is that Phillip Morris and friends have spent decades figuring out how to tweek their nicotine for maximum absorption into our lungs, which is why they are paying billions of dollars in fines for the next decade or so...They got CAUGHT ADDING POISINS INTO THEIR PRODUCTS!!!! And I still buy it..You think its addictive?...They have 4000 chemicals added to their tobacco products to make them MARKETABLE...Well I guess I got carried awayon this one, but in 10 years or so when we figure out how to make our juice more palatable we will have to vape much less.

 

[Tugger]

Not buying it. I've smoked handrolled cigarettes with "no additive" tobacco. They're much more satisfying than PVs (not that PVs are so bad, they're still pretty great.)

Another thing, has anyone noticed that Hookah's are not satisfying like analogs, I never understodd that either, while we're here.

 

[lachesis]

but didn't that NZ study did say 99% gets absorbed... Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. Very interesting outcome, indeed - and yes, after reading this, I just took my 18mg (highest I have) and finished the entire cart, little buzzed.

 

[Doc]

'... fast-acting free-base form given by cigs ...' That might be the answer, maybe it takes more than five minutes to get into the bloodstream.

This is likely true. We are willing here at Haile Medical Group to design a study to answer these questions . We can answer these questions right here in our lab with SERIAL blood draws at set time intervals. If there are any other thoughts you may have Kate ( or others ) , regarding information from your contacts or experience please share. Two physician vappers in the practice will volunteer immediately for preliminary serial draws. (as soon as next week) prior to designing a statistically valid study. Does anyone have a link providing info regarding the standard time intervals as used by tobacco studies?

 

[yvilla]

Doc, I found it interesting that the abstract Kate points us to in the first post reports that plasma concentrations in the ecig group were also significantly less (only 1/2) than those in the group using the Nicorette inhaler:

"Maximal plasma concentrations were 0.9 and 1.8 ng.ml for the 16mg ENI and inhalator, respectively."

So comparisons between plasma concentrations you find with ecigs and those reported in published clinical trials of NRT meds ought to be enlightening as well, don't you think? And isn't quite a lot of data about that found right on the inserts that come with the NRT meds, as well as published elsewhere?​

 

[Caesarea]

Woah......yes caesarea bring back the woodbines ....lol. .....those were back in the good old days when we were blissfully happy in our ignorance and weren't convinced we were going to die tomorrow from smoking a cigarette.

Funnily enough, 48 years later, I find I haven't...
Quite surprising!

Yes Woodbines were my first smoke...then Nelson, then my favourite from Sixth form onwards : Gold Leaf.

*Goes all nostalgic....

 

[Doc]

Doc, I found it interesting that the abstract Kate points us to in the first post reports that plasma concentrations in the ecig group were also significantly less (only 1/2) than those in the group using the Nicorette inhaler:

"Maximal plasma concentrations were 0.9 and 1.8 ng.ml for the 16mg ENI and inhalator, respectively."

So comparisons between plasma concentrations you find with ecigs and those reported in published clinical trials of NRT meds ought to be enlightening as well, don't you think? And isn't quite a lot of data about that found right on the inserts that come with the NRT meds, as well as published elsewhere?​

There is actually a misperception among many on how the nicotrol inhaler works. Many believe nicotine delivery is through inhalation. The actual delivery however is through the oral mucosa( as intended). You can try to inhale from the nicotrol inhaler however that is not its intended delivery and does not deliver as such. It is therefore not a true inhaler as vaping may be. The nicotine levels when vaping may also come from mucosal absorbtion rather than alveolar delivery possibly explaining the nicotine level discrepancies.

 

[Caesarea]

There is actually a misperception among many on how the nicotrol inhaler works. Many believe nicotine delivery is through inhalation. The actual delivery however is through the oral mucosa( as intended). You can try to inhale from the nicotrol inhaler however that is not its intended delivery and does not deliver as such. It is therefore not a true inhaler as vaping may be.

(space)

The nicotine levels when vaping may also come from mucosal absorbtion rather than alveolar delivery possibly explaining the nicotine level discrepancies.

This rings true, when I consider my vaping styles. See my previous posts #5 and #8.

Hope ths helps the research.

C.

PS we need a new word - mouthhaler or buccahaler ....

 

[kinabaloo]

Interesting links about free-base nicotine; how it varies widely between brands of analogues and might not be influenced by pH:
Freebase nicotine
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-07/ohs-orp072403.php
http://www.bupa.co.uk/health_information/html/health_news/060803nicotine.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=free-base+nicotine&aq=f&oq=

However, while nicotine in the free-base form is more effective at binding to the body's receptors, this doesn't explain why the plasma levels are lower than expected wrt juice levels. There are three times something could be happening - before entering the VP, in the VP, in the body.

* Is it that the nicotine has reacted, deteriorated or evaporated or something before the juice is actually vaped ?

* Does something about the VP (perhaps in concert with juice chemistry) cause some of the nicotine to be reacted/deteriorated somehow? Say, decomposition catalysed by the nichrome ,... Unlikely.

* Is it that little of the nicotine arrives in the lung as a pure vapor but mostly dissolved in droplets of PG/VG from which it is not effectively absorbed? In which case, what happens to it? It is eventually absorbed but over a long time frame, it is gradually exhaled or coughed out?

I'd put most money on the last.

ps: were these tests done on a piezo device or the more common heater coil design of VP? If a piezo device, the droplet-hindered absorption effect would be more pronounced as droplet size and ratio of nicotine in droplets would be much higher.

 

[Nuck]

So if we want more kick from our juice we should raise the PH and make it more alkaline?

 

[Kate]

There's some information about pH here that might interest you - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...equests/3204-ph-values-harshness-eliquid.html

 

[Kate]

This is likely true. We are willing here at Haile Medical Group to design a study to answer these questions . We can answer these questions right here in our lab with SERIAL blood draws at set time intervals. If there are any other thoughts you may have Kate ( or others ) , regarding information from your contacts or experience please share. Two physician vappers in the practice will volunteer immediately for preliminary serial draws. (as soon as next week) prior to designing a statistically valid study. Does anyone have a link providing info regarding the standard time intervals as used by tobacco studies?

Any research is welcomed Doc, we spend most of our time speculating because we're so lacking in real study results.

Let us know what you need us to do to help.

I'll have a look for information on how blood nicotine tests are usually done. It may be best for you to contact Dr Eissenberg, he's looking into nicotine absorption and efficiency. Let me know if you want me to send you his email address.

 

[kinabaloo]

So if we want more kick from our juice we should raise the PH and make it more alkaline?

Not if the chemistry takes place in the vapor phase. Something like ammonia would be required that gets into the gas phase to convert some of the nicotine; not very pleasant.