Nicotine absorbtion from vaping research

[kinabaloo]

While it is surprising that the plasma nicotine levels are much lower than expected, an important question arising is what happens to to the rest. Here, I make the proposal that much of the rest is indeed absorbed, eventually, and put forward a mechanism, test and discuss some of the important implications.

Perhaps speed of delivery is the key here. This initial effect being between an analogue and an inhaler. However, crucially, if some/much of the nicotine is sitting in the lungs a long time dissolved in PG/VG, some of this might eventually get absorbed. This would account for both the 'less kick' and the 'ability to overdose'.

That is, a possible explanation is that some (perhaps most even) on the VP's nicotine does not show up in the chart but over a time frame more like the patch does eventually get mostly absorbed. This means that the VP behaves like an analogue and a patch at the same time, with absorbed nicotine building up throughout the day, possibly to hazardous levels. This could be easily investigated by testing levels after some hours of vaping; I anticipate that the levels will have risen considerably.

Indeed, because VG, in particular, is extremely slow to evaporate, the nicotine might persist in the lung for a considerable time, a longer timeframe even than patch.

This is my theory to explain the 'missing nicotine' (far lower plasma concentrations that expected from the quantity in the juice) that also accounts for various, seemingly contradictory, user experiences.

While I could be off-base, this just might be a key part of our understanding of vaping and nicotine delivery.

 

[Nuck]

Thanks Kate. Excellent information in that thread.

 

[DuneBuggy]

My personal experience seems to coincide with their early findings.
I suspected I wasnt getting the same does of nic a analog was giving me.
After about 5 days of only vaping,I stabilized. I figured my body was getting acustomed to a lower nic intake...Just like if I was quitting smoking.

 

[Doostin]

Well, the research could be re-done and see what the figures are, but I think they are on the right track. All I know is that the odd time I do have a cigarette, I tend to not to think about or pick up the PV for 45-60 mins. Most times I'm puffing on the PV a bit more constantly.

 

[sMuCk_fOg]

Every day , and have stopped smoking analogs (3 weeks ago)
last night at band practice,I took a drag off a Marlboro LIGHT 100 and I swear I thought I was going to pass out! WOW what a rush!!!, but it also left me feeling quite queezy for some time...NEVER AGAIN! 8-o

 

[kinabaloo]

Marlboro is one one of the brands with a higher level of free-base nicotine, perhaps partly accounting for its success.

Apparently, the brand with highest free-base content, American Spirit, is additive free. This does not rule out the pH theory, however; perhaps something about the tobacco used, or that some (other) additive negates the release of free-base nicotine.

 

[Kate]

It's amazing how big the differences are with our experiences. I wonder if technique might have a role in absorption too, maybe different inhaling techniques or something. Probably not but I wish we could find out why some of us are knocked over with nic from vaping and some of us hardly notice it.

Kinabaloo's theory sounds plausable - "... if some/much of the nicotine is sitting in the lungs a long time dissolved in PG/VG, some of this might eventually get absorbed. This would account for both the 'less kick' and the 'ability to overdose'."

Maybe with some people it's just not getting absorbed for some reason, maybe pH differences or something.

 

[Doc]

My personal experience seems to coincide with their early findings.
I suspected I wasnt getting the same does of nic a analog was giving me.
After about 5 days of only vaping,I stabilized. I figured my body was getting acustomed to a lower nic intake...Just like if I was quitting smoking.

This seems to be consistent, and more evidence toward the safety issues. It is anecdotal but now backed up by one study. There are many non FDA approved methods for smoking cessation. It would be medically appropriate to use a non nicotine liquid in conjunction with "approved" nicotine replacement methods such as gum as Tropical Bob has suggested. Some of my patients already do this with profound success. (patch and gum are being used successfully here with this approach). I don't think however this is needed. The amount and mechanism of nic delivery with vapping seems ideal to me.

 

[kinabaloo]

An alternative (or partial alternative) theory for the 'missing nicotine': some fraction of the nicotine in e-juices might not be volatile and simply forms a deposit on the heater coil (and subsequently degrades there). In at least some (all?) e-juices, the nicotine is tobacco derived whereby it would be expected in a number of forms.

In a piezo device the dissolved non-free-base nicotine compounds would be carried in the droplets to the lungs (no vapor phase). In a cigarete they are carried on particles of ash.

 

[sMuCk_fOg]

It's amazing how big the differences are with our experiences. I wonder if technique might have a role in absorption too, maybe different inhaling techniques or something. Probably not but I wish we could find out why some of us are knocked over with nic from vaping and some of us hardly notice it.

Kinabaloo's theory sounds plausable - "... if some/much of the nicotine is sitting in the lungs a long time dissolved in PG/VG, some of this might eventually get absorbed. This would account for both the 'less kick' and the 'ability to overdose'."

Maybe with some people it's just not getting absorbed for some reason, maybe pH differences or something.

take two or three primer "non inhaled" puffs , and then a slow very deeeeeep drag until the auto switch shuts me down and then exhale rather slowly.

 

[Kate]

Thanks Fog, I wonder if you try to savour the flavour and keep the vapour longer in your mouth before inhaling if that would change your absorption rate. I think I tend to keep vapour in my mouth for a second or two before inhaling - not a deep inhale or shallow, more moderate.

With nicotine in pipe and cigar smoke it's absorbed through the membrane in our mouths and doesn't need to be inhaled like cig smoke. That's to do with the pH levels, pipe and cigars are more alkaline and cigs are more acidic which is better for lung absorption.

 

[V-V]

Interesting. I get a nic buzz (yucky) with the high niquid, I have to cut it down.

But, I have only recently even tried the high, I began vaping with 11mg and have stuck with that and plan to move to low my next order.

So, what does this mean? Either I'm getting more nicotine than this study would lead us to believe, or..what?

 

[gatsby]

It might mean that many of use are too concerned with replacing our previous nicotine levels. A fair amount of addiction is mental and habit based which is why many of the people here report little success in the past with patches and gums. Personally I also think the controlled 'spikes' no matter if they are actually smaller in dose help mimic the delivery better. Perhaps replacing the habit gets you through the period of adjustment and we are now nicotine 'lightweights'. I am a researcher and I know if this was my field I would want to understand 'why' this works, but as an addict I only care that it works. I had a colleague who was as tough as nails on research methodology and validity, but he wore a copper bracelet everyday for health. When I gave him a hard time about the obvious hypocrisy his response was always. It makes me feel better so what do I care if its a placebo or not. Personally if I am getting the satisfaction, smelling, better, allowed back in my house... I am glad if a by product is a decrease in my nicotine intake. It may offend my scientific sensibilities if I really think it through, but when I am jonesing for nic I am not a scientist. If the vapor is relatively safe there is such a thing about over thinking this. Sometimes a sugar pill is all you need.

 

[Faethe]

This throws all our current comparisons off track C., I don't know what we can say about this for swappers.

I don't even know how it's possible that many of us have been able to overdose if these figures are reliable.

I get a decent buzz off 36mg.

I wonder why?

 

[sMuCk_fOg]

Personally if I am getting the satisfaction, smelling, better, allowed back in my house... I am glad if a by product is a decrease in my nicotine intake. It may offend my scientific sensibilities if I really think it through, but when I am jonesing for nic I am not a scientist. If the vapor is relatively safe there is such a thing about over thinking this. Sometimes a sugar pill is all you need.

Ohh...But I'm NOT a scientist , so I ...well you get my drift.haha

 

[JustJulie]

I am blown away by the really intelligent discussion here. I, however, was an English major, and I was positively grateful to get a B- in chemistry.

That being said, I was a former American Spirit Menthol Light smoker, 2 1/2 - 3 packs a day. (I shudder as a type that.) I started off vaping high nic solutions and experienced no real withdrawal symptoms, but I did experience some symptoms of mild OD--wicked headaches and nausea, and, at one point, a racing heart rate. I now vape low and medium strengths, with occasional spikes of high nic concentrations, and that seems to do well for me. I was down to no nic for awhile, but the cravings started, and I didn't want to deal with them.

I use mostly devices with manual switches. I inhale into my mouth for approximately 5 seconds, pause, then inhale into my lungs. I do NOT get a buzz (not even from high nic solutions), but i do get a satisfying "weight" in the back of my throat and in my lungs.

After giving up analogs, I did try a few puffs of one, only to find a surprising buzz and the not-so-surprising nasty taste/smell. I'm having a hard time, though, thinking the buzz was from the nicotine. Rather, I *think* (without knowing for sure, of course) that for me, the buzz was more about the carbon monoxide/dioxide. But given my B- in chemistry, I'd take that with a grain of salt.

I know I'm addicted to nicotine, but I think that for me, the biggest part of my addiction is the physical act of smoking . . . taking something of weight into my lungs. I can use SNUs until the cows come home, but I'm still craving a smoke. However, give me an e-cig, and the craving for a cigarette all but disappears.

I'm wondering if the nature of the addiction we have to smoking varies from individual to individual. I know it's not totally psychological because vaping zero nicotine solutions still leaves me craving, but that may be because I'm not getting a good "throat hit."

I wish there were some testing going on in the St. Louis area. Not only would I volunteer, I'd pay for the privilege.

 

[paladinx]

How do you really know the consistency of the nicotine in general is even consistent? That is one reason I would not urge some folks to use a patch and smoke 0 nic liquid. Maybe that 0 nic liquid might have 30 plus mgs in it by mistake. Maybe those who get buzzes and sick. Maybe they are getting higher dosages then they think. Who really knows. Its unregulated and it seems a lot of this is complete guess work.

 

[Angela]

Paladinx: Most of your posts seem to be very 'anti' or, at the very least, rather on the scaremongering / paranoia side, yet without any reference whatsoever to any 'facts' (even your own experiences).

Yes, we should all be aware of both sides and all possibilities, but you seem so concerned that I am having difficulty in understanding why you are vaping at all.

Please do not think that I am having a dig at you, I am seriously wondering why you think some of the things you do. Is it a general trait, or is it something that e-cigs have brought out? eg Did you worry that each cigarette you smoked might have accidentally had too much nicotine added during the manufacturing process (or, even worse, any one of the other dreadful additives used)?

No, not every e-juice has been tested, but those that have been appear to contain what it is supposed to. I personally will stick with those brands that do publish ingredients and have published reports because I admire them for taking the lead in the industry and think that they ought to be supported - even if it does cost me a few extra pounds in the process.

No, not every batch is tested, but I don't find myself contantly worrying that 0mg may actually contain 36mg..... even if a mislabelling did occur, my body would tell me pretty darn quickly if what I was vaping was that much higher than I was used to.

 

[Liberate_Yourself]

I'm wondering if the nature of the addiction we have to smoking varies from individual to individual. I know it's not totally psychological because vaping zero nicotine solutions still leaves me craving, but that may be because I'm not getting a good "throat hit."

Or maybe it is because you KNOW that you are using no nicotine. It seems like a very mental addiction to me. I have a friend who said that my 6mg juice (that I currently vape) does nothing for him. He wanted to try a higher level of nic juice, and I told him that I would special order it for him. I gave him the SAME juice in a bottle labeled 36mg and told him to be extremely careful, etc etc.. and gave him many warnings about how potentially dangerous it was, etc. He called me a day later telling me that it was to much for him and that it was some "crazy sh*t!" Watching him use the very same 6mg eLiquid made me laugh, as he coughed and gave me the "whoaaa" look. His expression was priceless when I told him that it was the very same 6mg liquid he had complained about before.

I have tried the same experiment with numerous other friends, each time getting the exact same result.

I think that the success of eCigarettes thus far is with no doubt, at least 80% mental.

Very interesting findings though. I do think that it may be a delayed release effect as well.. because I have gotten a bit dizzy after a good vaping session from time to time. I am very excited to see some further tests.

P.S. Thank you for posting this info Kate!

 

[katink]

What kind of device was used in those tests, I wonder? Perhaps rather hot atomizers were used? (Nicotine dissolves/disappears at pretty low temperatures) This is also a clear difference with the inhaler: that has cold air flowing through it.

At the same time it could be the temperature in the e-device that helps a lot in the experience of getting your 'fix' in.
As for the od-symptoms: how sure are we that they are in fact OD-symptoms? Perhaps it's another factor that is causing similar symptoms? Hyperventilation? Is there such a thing as hypo-ventilation, causing shortage of oxygen in the blood and/or brain after prolonged slow breathing and holding breath/vape (while meanwhile not inhaling fresh oxygen)? Might be interesting to measure not just nicotine in the blood, but also the accompanying oxygen-level?