Nicotine absorbtion from vaping research

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Wally

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These figures are interesting and they are testimony to how little we know about both inhalation of pure nicotine and about what it is people get from cigarettes. Public health has reduced cigarette smoking to "nicotine addiction" in an effort to dismiss its importance to people. "It's just an addiction" (has no meaning, benefits, etc.). People clearly get a lot out of smoking and it is not all about nicotine or addiction. I think there are many reasons that we experience vaping differently than tobacco. A big difference is that the carbon monoxide is an important part of the "high" we get from cigarettes and a big part of the short term impulse to smoke more: as the carbon monoxide dissipates in the blood, we get light headed and jittery and desire more CO. I also think that the nicotine from cigarettes is absorbed differently by the blood supply in the lungs because of the presence of carbon monoxide (and perhaps a lot of other things in tobacco smoke). Etc., etc. Physiologically it's a very complex subject. For me, I have to be careful to not vape too much because I easily ingest too much nicotine and feel it in my gut when that happens. And I am using only 6-8 mg liquid. Like others, I am inclined to vape all day as if I were smoking a pipe and because I feel I am not getting something. For me, that something is the CO. I confirmed this recently by deliberately inhaling some very pure CO (from a tank I use to calibrate a CO detector system in aircraft). The CO is the high I get from tobacco that I am not getting from vaping (and also the heavy-headedness from too much tobacco). I would also add that the lack of CO in vaping is one of the things that makes it hard to pace the vaping--I am used to the CO effects as a clue to regulating smoking. In any case, I find vaping a much better experience than smoking tobacco.

Wally

P.S. Because of the general level of sophistication on the forum I didn't think to add a warning about carbon monoxide. I am *not* at all suggesting inhaling CO for a high or to simulate tobacco smoking. CO is extremely dangerous and can easily produce severe, permanent brain damage and death. I mentioned the experiment only for purposes of analysis.
 
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SleepHater

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I was asked to issue a warning by Dr Eissenberg about nicotine. It's what we already know about lethal doses and being careful but it's from a professional to us and should be posted:

"... *please* be careful handling the liquid that goes into these cartridges, and also ask your colleagues to do the same. The lethal dose of nicotine for an adult human is 40-60 milligrams and, if we are to believe the manufacturers, 2-3 cartridges contain about that dose, and the bottles of liquid that can be purchased over the internet contain much higher doses. Nicotine can be absorbed through the skin and acute nicotine poisoning is a very painful (and totally unnecessary) way to die. Keep the cartridges away from children and pets, and don't handle the liquid or use gloves if you must."

I agree, I think it is the handling of strong fluids that should be addressed to all users. We all no nicotine is absorbed through the skin (nic. patches etc) and in my own experience dripping, filling carts, screwing around with the device I was getting juice on my hands all the time. Most times I would start to fill nic overload I think was because of direct skin contact. I think vaping like wild is far less concerning (in terms of blood levels) then the skin exposure. I've seen nic OD with a teenager rushing a frat slapped on 5 (or more) high dose patches, not pretty... he made it but it looked like it sucked.

Any way, keep the juice OFF your skin, cheers.
 

paladinx

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"Paladinx: Most of your posts seem to be very 'anti' or, at the very least, rather on the scaremongering / paranoia side, yet without any reference whatsoever to any 'facts' (even your own experiences)."

lol. thats why i am here. I am looking to learn and find facts. And my posts sound that way mainly because I am disappointed in how little facts there actually is.

I look at the negatives, because that is more important right now then looking at the positives. The positives are easy. You can look at all the accumulated bull**** about tobacco smoke that has compiled over the last few decades and list everything the e-cig does not have that the cigarettes do have. Any monkey can do that, but it is not going to get us anywhere.

I was all excited about e-smoking and came on here all positive thinking I found the perfect solution. But as I am reading and figuring things out. I see a lot of uncertainties that bother me. Only because im afraid of switching addictions from something that can kill me in 30 years from now with heavy use to something that might kill me in 10 years from another problem all together. So i throw all my negative thoughts out there in order for you guys to tell me what an idiot i am and for us to all think about it and try to improve it if need be.
 

TropicalBob

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Some video reviews support that contention, Katink. Someone sucks so loooooong and so hard that they're getting no oxygen. Might as well play that game where you shut off the arteries behind the ears and pass out. The brain starves either way. Not cool.

Plus, a susceptible person might well OD on pure PG ... The mind is very, very powerful. To suggestions. And to expectations.

Just listen to your body and follow its instructions.
 

Nuck

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I agree, I think it is the handling of strong fluids that should be addressed to all users. We all no nicotine is absorbed through the skin (nic. patches etc) and in my own experience dripping, filling carts, screwing around with the device I was getting juice on my hands all the time. Most times I would start to fill nic overload I think was because of direct skin contact. I think vaping like wild is far less concerning (in terms of blood levels) then the skin exposure. I've seen nic OD with a teenager rushing a frat slapped on 5 (or more) high dose patches, not pretty... he made it but it looked like it sucked.

Any way, keep the juice OFF your skin, cheers.

I honestly don't think that skin exposure with a VG or a PG based liquid does much (anything) at all. There have been many cases posted here where users spill it on themselves and other than the initial rush of fear I've never heard of anyone even getting a buzz from it.

I use 36mg to mix and spill on myself quite frequently. I don't even bother washing it off, I just give a wipe with a paper towel and keep going and I've never felt the slightest effect from it.
 

TropicalBob

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I'm with Nuck. Any fear of spilling our liquid on skin is overblown. Way overblown. This is not nicotine. This is about 1% to 3% nicotine. Trog slathered some on his eyebrows. Nothing. I soaked a Band-Aid and wore it on my abdomen to see if it would function as a nicotine patch. Nothing. I made hard candy with a ml or more in pieces I left in my mouth to dissolve. Nothing (except it didn't taste good).

Don't go crazy but do lose some of the unwarranted fears about the liquid getting on your skin. Just .. rinse it off in due time.
 

katink

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I use 11 mg paladinx and I have no effects of any liquid, even 36mg that I use for mixing, on my skin at all - and just like Nuck, I 'kind of' wipe it off when it gets in the way, but I really don't bother getting away from what I am doing to rinse it off... I'll do that whenever I happen to pass a tap anyway, and that could be a while.
 

Kate51

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This is an interesting turn, isn't it. Maybe this is why I see so many people, and myself included, say they are puffing all the time! My hunger pangs are telling me I am way down on nicotine, but couldn't prove that.
But I still am perfectly content on 24mg JC Original, NO SMOKING IN 59 DAYS AND 3 HOURS. That's great to think this thing is getting done: we need more testing, for sure. MORE MORE MORE!!

Kate, I haven't missed too many of your comments, you are priceless, thank you.;)
 

Princessdee

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I honestly don't think that skin exposure with a VG or a PG based liquid does much (anything) at all. There have been many cases posted here where users spill it on themselves and other than the initial rush of fear I've never heard of anyone even getting a buzz from it.

I use 36mg to mix and spill on myself quite frequently. I don't even bother washing it off, I just give a wipe with a paper towel and keep going and I've never felt the slightest effect from it.

Me too. I vape 36mg. I over-fill carts frequently (cause I'm rushing to do it and don't give it time to soak in. I fill carts twice a week for hubby & me (GOTTA order some more blank carts :rolleyes:)) I just let it go, or if I have a tissue handy, wipe it.

I've NEVER had a single OD symptom.

Now, if you spill a full oz of 48mg on your lap (thinner skin on thighs and mucosal err...skin there) and just sit there like a dummy, you probably would be in trouble. But an infrequent drop on your hands won't hurt, I personally don't think.
 

Txrider

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Only been at this for a couple of weeks, but I would first want to know what ecig the study used and how much vapor was produced by it. Cigs are pretty well known.

I get a good nic level off the ecig, being a 35 year smoker I can tell pretty well.

If I was to go out and have an analog right now I would get a too much nic feeling. I've done it a few times now and each time I don't get a buzz or rush as if I hadn't smoked anything in a few days and had a cig, I get a familiar "you chain smoked too many cigs" unpleasant feeling.

But I have found that the carts for the m401 I bought didn't cut it. Some were overfilled, but most were under filled. No consistency. I'm using an 18mg liquid and topping off carts now and I'm getting a consistently good thick vapor and a consistent nic level this way I didnt get nost of the time with just carts.

I would question the e-cigs used for the study first, without some measured baseline of vapor, and nic level of vapor the study seem lacking.
 

Chevron07

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Kate...300 puffs per ml sounds about right. I'm not a constant vaper so it should be easy enough to do the math.

Puffs/Day:
(Usually groups of 5-10 puffs)
2 on the way to work
1 morning break
2 lunch
1 afternoon break
2 on the way home
3 at home between dinner and bed
11 total (55-110 puffs/day)

ML/Day
(I settled into a routine, got some juice from a friend, and mixed with some VG on the day of my son's christening Sunday 4/5...~40 days ago.)

What I started with:
6 ML bottle of 75/25 16mg coffee/VG (12mg/ml) = 72mg
6 ML bottle of 75/25 11mg riskee/VG (8.25mg/ml) = 49.5mg
5 ML bottle of 11mg 5*5*5 (11mg/ml) = 55mg
5 ML bottle of 11mg energee (11mg/ml) = 55mg
22 ML total @ ~ 10.5mg/ml

What I have left:
0 ML bottle of 75/25 16mg coffee/VG (12mg/ml) = 0mg
2 ML bottle of 75/25 11mg riskee/VG (8.25mg/ml) = 16.5mg
4 ML bottle of 11mg 5*5*5 (11mg/ml) = 44mg
4 ML bottle of 11mg energee (11mg/ml) = 44mg
10 ML total @ ~ 10.5mg/ml

Conclusion:
I used 12 ML of 10.5mg/ml over 40 days.
0.3 ML/Day * 55-110 puffs/day is 183-367 puffs/ML of 10.5mg/ml juice.

-I do use an M-401 which I've heard is very efficient with juice.

Feel free to check my math!
 

Tom09

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Feb 22, 2009
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I doubt the reliability of these results myself, previous Ruyan claims, for example 300 puffs per ml, seem massively unrealistic.

Hi Kate,
I don’t see much reason to question the present ‘Ruyan team’ results on this ground. The reported blood nicotine levels (Bullen et al. 2009) are actually the ‘not anticipated’ outcome for a device that has been specifically designed and intended to deliver nicotine at a level sufficiently high to suppress craving for analogs. In this aspect, it apparently turned out to be as effective as would be sucking on a carrot! (Please excuse polemics and note that I went with the lower error margin for emphasis only.) At this point, those results mark a disaster for the Ruyan team, as pointed out in Eissenberg’s message (OP). Therefore I think that the Ruyan team did really check their data twice, before they put anything out in abstract and presentation. And so I feel quite confident to consider it as probably correct, as far as this could go for a single number from a first, unpublished report.

Our questions should perhaps be more centered around the implications for us users. And that’s still at square one (and a half). While there now are some indications that vaping may be less effective in delivering nicotine than previously thought, there remain numerous unknown variables (e.g., performance of different devices, individually different vaping techniques, you name it).
 
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