Nicotine absorbtion from vaping research

[Kate]

Yes, that could be right Tom but I'll feel happier when there is a bigger sample and more data to confirm the Ruyan findings.

This might be far fetched but it occurred to me that if Ruyan can prove vaping is not tobacco use or an effective drug treatment then they can argue their way out of regulation in the US. Now that so many of us can testify to the effectiveness of vaping they don't need to sell that angle anymore and can claim it's a placebo effect.

You're more likely to be correct with your analysis I think.

 

[jim420]

Must be a placebo effect on me, then. I smoked analogs for close to 40 years, 2 packs a day and when I went E, did not have any withdrawal symptoms using med strength carts. I have not taken a puff from an analog and not felt driven to do so.
Maybe I shouldn't have read this posting, since placebos only work when you don't know it. LOL

 

[jim420]

It would be nice to get some more of the absolute specifics of these tests. For instance, what type of cigarettes, etc., puffing and holding in styles and some of the other variables.
It also makes me wonder if perhaps it is the carrier (VG/PG) not being as absorbed into the alveoli as smoke does, thus delivering less nicotine in the process. Perhaps some of the medical types in here could look at that aspect. If the carrier doesn't deliver, the nicotine would likely be exhaled before being absorbed.
My only other reservation of this data is that the research was not conducted by an unbiased party. You'll have to admit, Ruyan has a vested interest in the outcome of this research. That is not to say that it is not honest results, but any studies like this should be from an "arms-length" party. Look at the tobacco research done in the 1960's by the tobacco companies....See what I mean.
It is interesting, nonetheless.

 

[exogenesis]

Just thought, perhaps I should have put the below post in this thread rather than:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ph-values-harshness-eliquid-3.html#post282388

It seems the nicotine in TW liquid may well be 63% in the (far more active) free-base form,
so what stops the 'instant gratification' like you get in real ciggies ?

- is adsorption really slowed down that much by the PG or VG delivery system ?

 

[TropicalBob]

This might be far fetched but it occurred to me that if Ruyan can prove vaping is not tobacco use or an effective drug treatment then they can argue their way out of regulation in the US.

Kate, I suggested that very thing not long ago in another thread. And I stopped short of suggesting it again here (I'm self-censoring a lot rather than buck the tidal wave of misinformation and ignorant opinion in many threads).

If a concoction doesn't cause a pharmacological impact, then it's not a drug, is it? If our liquid mix doesn't provide nicotine's effects on the brain or body, then it's no different than a vitamin or some homeopathic substance, which are unregulated. Red Bull probably has more impact than Riskee Yuice or whatever.

And I will tell you this in my case: I can use 8mg and 36mg and not be able to tell you which is which. I get NOTHING in the way of a nic hit from any liquid, so I know it's the ritual habit that I enjoy with e-smoking, not the nicotine (I get that from snus).

I believe those test results are completely valid. Now, let's use them to claim in the U.S. that e-liquid is a not a drug, therefore our e-cigs cannot be drug-delivery devices. They are fun toys. Placebos to make nice vapor rings. No measurable effect? No reason to regulate.

 

[Kitabz]

Now, let's use them to claim in the U.S. that e-liquid is a not a drug, therefore our e-cigs cannot be drug-delivery devices. They are fun toys. Placebos to make nice vapor rings. No measurable effect? No reason to regulate.

If you follow this idea further then there is no point in having any nicotine in e-liquid (since it isn't absorbed in any significant quantities apparently*).

Had e-cigarettes been invented for just flavoured PG/VG (no nicotine) would they be of any interest to the FDA?

* FWIW, I do believe that it is absorbed but at a much slower rate than smoke due to: solid/gas (smoke) vs. liquid, larger particle size [smaller relative surface area] & different Ph.

 

[TropicalBob]

Could be, Kitabz. You snus, too, right? We multiple-nicotine types maintain a very steady nicotine blood level concentration during our waking hours this way. I'm always inputting new nicotine into my body. Sooooo....

What we have is a train ride through the desert. What I had with cigarette smoking was a roller coaster thrill ride. We're steady. The roller coaster is rises and drops, rushes and depressions. That's what I miss. No spikes. No rush. No 'nic hit'. And that's what my own experimentation attempts to replicate in a safe way.

 

[Kitabz]

Could be, Kitabz. You snus, too, right?

Sure am and largely thanks to you - I am forever in your debt for illuminating Sweden's best kept secret!

What I had with cigarette smoking was a roller coaster thrill ride. We're steady. The roller coaster is rises and drops, rushes and depressions. That's what I miss. No spikes. No rush. No 'nic hit'. And that's what my own experimentation attempts to replicate in a safe way.

I miss the rushes [somewhat] but not the depressions. Sadly it seems that we can't have one without the other. Overall, I'd rather have neither than both hence why snus is working so well for me.

I imagine that chemically there is a way to make vapour similar in intensity to a cigarette (e.g., ultra high mg but a very small quantity) but I don't want to get back into that Pavlovian reward/addiction thing. My nicotine addition now-a-days is more like a long term underlying need; much easier to manage albeit without the fine rushes.

 

[exogenesis]

FWIW, I do believe that it is absorbed but at a much slower rate than smoke due to:
solid/gas (smoke) vs. liquid, larger particle size [smaller relative surface area] & different Ph.

I wonder if the bigger effect is indeed the larger particle size of the PG droplets,
rather than the possiblility of nicotine being slow to leave the PG itself (or both)..

The pH of e-liquid seems to be similar to ciggie smoke, I assume that mainly affects the
proportion of free-base nicotine present.


I've always been surprised that snuffs & snus are an effective delivery system,
is the nicotine 'hit' much slower for snus than for ciggies ?

If I understand correctly you only put about 1/25th gram of baccy in your mouth,
that would be only 0.2 mg nicotine, & surely a slower release ?

Perhaps you should try toombak...
The Swedish snus and the Sudanese toombak: are the...[Oral Oncol. 1998] - PubMed Result

The pH of snus has declined from a previous range of 8-9 to a range of 7.8-8.5,
moisture content ranges 35-60% and nicotine content is in the order of 5-11 mg/g dry wt tobacco.
...

In the Sudan, snuff, locally known as toombak
...snip...
and the fermented ground powder is mixed with an aqueous solution of sodium bicarbonate.
The resultant product is moist, with a strong aroma,
highly addictive and its use is widespread particularly among males. Its pH range is 8-11

 

[Tom09]

...more data to confirm the Ruyan findings

For validation of Ruyan team’s reported results, I expect that we’ll hear something similar from another team, soon. Maybe it‘s not by chance that we first have read about a blood nicotine study in a [thread=11758]Washington Post article[/thread], where a visit at the American Legacy Foundation has been reported (e.g. see ALF’s position on ecigs here). And it’s probably not lacking factual grounds that ALF president Dr. Cheryl Healton did actually state that ecigs deliver less nicotine [thread=16240] (in a recent NBC news feature)[/thread]. Just as it could read between the lines of the [thread=11758]Washington Post article[/thread], already.

Can’t say it’s all placebo, because there is some physiological effect (variable for different users habit, devices, fluid, and so on). However, something really appears to be missing to a large extent. I’m curious to read about possible explanations that medical folk may come up with.

... argue their way out of regulation in the US.

Now, the vocal tobacco control / US public health policy community follows a clear cut mantra: allowing for two slots only, there are cigarettes and there are FDA regulated pharmaceutical nicotine products to help patients off of cigarettes. Within thus fixed framework, ecigs do have no place to even be considered on the market - if they are not effective. A measure of effectiveness may be blood nicotine levels. Assuming a group comes fast to confirm low effectiveness, this would be crafted into a policy weapon against ecigs (and focusing on it could push aside anecdotal user testimonials).

Catch22?
Yes, virtually ecig prohibition, if regulators (FDA) would indeed adopt the position of some vocal US public health pressure groups.
No, leaving ecigs on the market, if regulators follow a common-sense approach (as usually in place for other consumer products).

 

[Kitabz]

I've always been surprised that snuffs & snus are an effective delivery system,
is the nicotine 'hit' much slower for snus than for ciggies?

For snus there isn't really a hit at all in the analog sense anyway. It's a bit tingly at the start and you can feel the nicotine building up over many minutes (peak 20 minutes IIRC).

For nasal snuff there is a hit almost immediately but it's different to analogs; more a pleasant jolt rather than relief from cravings.

It's a bit like comparing a quick glass of wine (analog) to a small shot (snuff) to a long pint of beer (snus).

If I understand correctly you only put about 1/25th gram of baccy in your mouth, that would be only 0.2 mg nicotine, & surely a slower release?

No, it varies but the average is 1g of snus containing 8mg of nicotine of which between 1 and 2 mg is actually absorbed over an hour or two (according to an EU report I recently read). You can get strengths up to 16mg though so I would imagine those would yield 2-4mg. You can also get purified snus which have 3 or 6mg and these release the nicotine a bit quicker.

 

[exogenesis]

OK thanks for clarifying that, I think I read '1g/25pieces' as
1/25th gram each, instead of 25 x 1g.

Might give this a try, cos I've always preferred a pint of beer to wine
(as long as I can have the occasional shot of whiskey, or even first).

 

[Vee]

More speculation but I thought I'd chime in with my experience since it's still pretty fresh. I'm on 6 days and 31 min (heheh counting) since my last analog.

I smoked 1 pack / day. Each of my analog cigs was .8 mg / cig, so 16mg / day. I'm using a 510 Titan and TW 18mg Camel Flavor e-liquid. I average about 1-1.5 ml per day. My technique is drawing into my mouth for 2-3 seconds then inhaling the vapor from my mouth, holding for .5 seconds, and exhaling (typically through the mouth as well). I usually take 5-6 drags per session and the sessions are usually 15-20 minutes apart throughout the day.

Assuming the low side of e-liquid consumption (with 100% absorption), I'm taking in 2mg (12.5%) more nic per day than analogs. Assuming the high side, I'm taking in 11mg (69%) more nicotine / day.

Ever since I completely stopped smoking (I cut down slowly over 10 days or so), I've been progressively going through worse and worse withdrawals and found myself more on the high side of liquid use per day (1.5 ml). Note: I only read this article last night in case you're wondering about the placebo effect.

If I'm taking in 69% more nicotine than my body was used to, I'd think my body would know it. After reading this post, I went to get some Snus and see if that calmed me down (started getting the shakes a tad). It did, though that could just as easily be psychosomatic as much as chemical need.

If true that absorption is more like 10% of an analog, I could be getting only 2.7mg / day. Can't say for sure other than what my body "feels" and it sure feels like that statement is true.

I'll be *very* interested to find out more about this study.

 

[DreamVapor]

There seem to be so many conflicting scenarios to the nicotine absorbtion. It'll be interesting to see further studies.

I smoked 2 packs a day of roll your own gambler menthol light tobacco analogs. I've been about 6 weeks of just vaping. I've gone down to 6mg liquids partly because, I like to vape all day long and because in the mornings I struggle with light headedness(that I have thought was from too much nicotine...well at first I thought I was over dosing on oxygen to be quite honest). I never seem to have a problem in the evenings with the vertigoishness and usually want to hit an 18 mg vape a few times after dinner.
Would the nicotine build up through the day and then kick in during the mornings?

 

[Adik Ted]

I average about 1-1.5 ml per day. My technique is drawing into my mouth for 2-3 seconds then inhaling the vapor from my mouth, holding for .5 seconds, and exhaling (typically through the mouth as well). I usually take 5-6 drags per session and the sessions are usually 15-20 minutes apart throughout the day.

It beats me how you can get through so much juice with so few drags. I'm practically chain vaping 24 mg juice (I never feel overdosed/satisfied so I'm convinced the study mentioned by Kate is correct) yet I only use around 10-15 ml a week. I put so many drops into a milk carton top, tip the top to its side and then dip the atomiser bridge into the juice.

 

[Palmetto]

It beats me how you can get through so much juice with so few drags. I'm practically chain vaping 24 mg juice (I never feel overdosed/satisfied so I'm convinced the study mentioned by Kate is correct) yet I only use around 10-15 ml a week. I put so many drops into a milk carton top, tip the top to its side and then dip the atomiser bridge into the juice.

Just a guess, but your dipping method would seem to utilize all or most of the liquid, whereas the many vapers who use carts will never use all of it, since some liquid is always trapped in the end of the cart filler farthest away from the atty coil, and the older the filler gets, the denser the filler gets, so more is trapped. I guess if one saved all the cart filler used in a week, then squeezed it out and measured it, you'd get a better estimate of how much liquid was actually vaped -- then there's the matter of how much liquid is left in the atomizer itself, since quite a few people blow the liquid out and let it drain overnight.

It seems in every aspect of vaping, there's a whole lot of variables to take into account.

 

[allure]

One more thing to consider is the absorption rate depending on the pH of the juice. The more alkaline it is the more nicotine is absorbed in to your system.

 

[Kate]

This handout details some of the methods and measurements of Ruyan's studies - http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinBenchtopHandout.pdf

 

[Tom09]

More details can now be found in this handout of Ruyan team’s conference presentation: Effect of an E-Cigarette on Cravings and Withdrawal, Acceptability and Nicotine Delivery

 

[waywardsister]

I'm fairly convinced that the absorption rate is less than analogs. I can vape 24mg+ all day long, no buzz or OD side effects, and still smoke a few analogs in between (5-6 on average) I'll smoke an analog and then start vaping right afterwards.

Perhaps absorption/metabolization rates vary between individuals? TBob, I'm with you in that I've never caught a buzz from nicotine regardless of delivery system, except when I started smoking at 13 (I'm 34 now). I have OD'd before, from smoking while on the patch. That was interesting.