Nicotine Comparisons
- Thread starter Cyrus Vap
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OK, so I'm a bit late
The comparison/review is all ready for the most part, but I want to give my brain, thoughts and buds a little while to calm down before posting. vaping 33 mg/ml with 7 different nicotines all weekend has taken a toll
My new friends for the past 48 hours (actually much more for most): VZ, ECX, XTreme Vaping, WLRegular, WLIce, MFS, and RTS
And now my fiance' wants some attention
The comparison/review is all ready for the most part, but I want to give my brain, thoughts and buds a little while to calm down before posting. vaping 33 mg/ml with 7 different nicotines all weekend has taken a toll
My new friends for the past 48 hours (actually much more for most): VZ, ECX, XTreme Vaping, WLRegular, WLIce, MFS, and RTS
And now my fiance' wants some attention
Purpose and limitations:
I hope that this thread keeps going as a place to talk about and compare nicotines from various vendors with an eye on the subjective: The appearance, the aroma, the flavor, the throat hit, and how it interacts with flavors.
Objective considerations are a great thing to discuss as well, and Id love to see that here as well. Unfortunately for myself Im not a chemist, just a less than amateur taster who enjoys verbalizing vaping, so thats what Ill be doing for now.
I have no pretension to be doing anything scientific here, and hopefully no one reading or posting here should either. Havent come across any scientific reviews personally, and dont expect to anymore than I expect to see a square triangle one day.
This is about an incurably subjective experience, which hinges upon an individuals entire sensory and perceptual apparatus. This is not just about neurons, but also ones feelings, impulses, thoughts, vocabulary, and personal way of translating non-verbal stimuli into words.
In essence, its just reviews. Thats it.
In a review, the only thing you can do wrong is be untruthful about what you sense and perceive, and fudge your overall gestalt of a product. Otherwise, its right.
I belabor this dead horse because it seems feelings get hurt because people misread intentions and pretentions. The goal is to have fun, bounce ideas/tastes off of each other, get hip and hip others to nicotines, their qualities, quantities, strengths and weaknesses. Thats why this is posted in the flavor reviews section. And its always relevant to consider price, consistency, vendor integrity and customer experience because the bottom line is, were all paying for a product.
And again, fun. At the end of the day, we enjoy this fishy tertiary amine, and thats all there is to it.
I hope that this thread keeps going as a place to talk about and compare nicotines from various vendors with an eye on the subjective: The appearance, the aroma, the flavor, the throat hit, and how it interacts with flavors.
Objective considerations are a great thing to discuss as well, and Id love to see that here as well. Unfortunately for myself Im not a chemist, just a less than amateur taster who enjoys verbalizing vaping, so thats what Ill be doing for now.
I have no pretension to be doing anything scientific here, and hopefully no one reading or posting here should either. Havent come across any scientific reviews personally, and dont expect to anymore than I expect to see a square triangle one day.
This is about an incurably subjective experience, which hinges upon an individuals entire sensory and perceptual apparatus. This is not just about neurons, but also ones feelings, impulses, thoughts, vocabulary, and personal way of translating non-verbal stimuli into words.
In essence, its just reviews. Thats it.
In a review, the only thing you can do wrong is be untruthful about what you sense and perceive, and fudge your overall gestalt of a product. Otherwise, its right.
I belabor this dead horse because it seems feelings get hurt because people misread intentions and pretentions. The goal is to have fun, bounce ideas/tastes off of each other, get hip and hip others to nicotines, their qualities, quantities, strengths and weaknesses. Thats why this is posted in the flavor reviews section. And its always relevant to consider price, consistency, vendor integrity and customer experience because the bottom line is, were all paying for a product.
And again, fun. At the end of the day, we enjoy this fishy tertiary amine, and thats all there is to it.
Gear:
Provari satin black, 3.3 volts to as high as I can go before things 1) scorch 2) I get an E2
For the most part I float around 7-10 watts during normal vaping, and during these taste tests
Atomizers: 5 phoenix XLs, all recoiled with 32 AWG kanthal A-1, and cotton yarn
2 phoenix 3mls, both recoiled with 32 AWG kanthal A-1 and cotton yarn
All wicks are identical in thickness and length
All heating elements are set to 2.0-2.2 ohms
The XL phoenixes are set in half cut fluxomizer tubes
The 3ml phoenixes are set in cut off vision tubes
The heating element is equidistant from the mouth end in all cases
All atomizers are tail piped 90% of the time. When I’ve used drip tips, I’ve used stainless steel, the stock phoenix tips/fluxo tips, and the vision mouthpieces. I haven’t noticed much of an influence exerted by these mouthpieces, but there is a tiny bit. So tail piping is the final word here.
All bootleg atties have been hammered through the past 7-9 days, dripped on with my cigar blend and nicotine juices. Friday evening they were flushed with scalding hot water, soaked in hot water, soaked in ethanol, and allowed to dry out over night. The wicks and coils are completely broken in, flavor is as pure as it can get with this set up.
I’ve also rotated all nicotines through my 2 IO6s and my hH.357.
This brings me to an important point:
Why the above choice of ‘atty’ ? I have only recently discovered the glories of the .357 and the IO6. If I had a sufficient number of each, I’d not only be very happy, but I would have used them to run these taste tests. But I don’t.
That said, IMO the phoenix (and the fluxomizer) used as a dripping atomizer is a close 2nd place to the IO6 and .357. No question the hybrids rule the pack, but the modded clearos are certainly a close second place. I’ve found the .357s and IO6s to confirm what I taste in the phoenix for this test.
If anything is different, it just slightly amplifies and clarifies what is already there. If these were flavors, it would likely be a different story.
I find the 3ml phoenix and XL to taste identical as well. Again, for consistency, I would love to have used 7 of the same model, but I don’t have that number of either..
Why cotton and kanthal?
IME they both deliver the cleanest taste I’ve had. This difference approaches negligible when the heating element is saturated, but becomes more pronounced when things get dry. Also seems to be less important when vaping unflavored, more pronounced when using actual flavors. These nics have all been run through a silica set up as well (the hybrid atties above) just to be safe. Again, hardly any difference.
Nicotines: 100mg/ml across the board, all cut to 33 mg/ml by borosilicate graduated cylinder, heated indirectly in a water bath, stirred, poured into glass bottles, shaken violently, allowed to settle with a portion transferred to clear plastic bottles
Vaping: I’ve sat with all nics side by side in multiple sessions. I’ve also spent blocks of time with a single nic to let it really soak in. When I do the latter, they are run through one phoenix, the IO6, and the .357. I’ve also spent a considerable amount of time using unflavored for the past few weeks in an effort to sensitize my buds (I hope LOL ) to the more subtle nuances of nic juice vs. the sledge hammer notes of regular DIY.
Double Dipping? None. Nicotines never crossed paths within a phoenix. When they crossed paths within one of the hybrids, the atty was first blown out, then blasted with PG for a while and vaped until nothing was left but the taste of PG and I was no longer spinning from hitting it.
Limitations:
Taste is subjective, and influenced by mood, surroundings, nic buzz, and a host of other things, not the least of which is my fiancé’s maltese licking himself all night and pissing me off
WLR, WLI, ECX, XTR and RTS are all VG based, with my PG used to come to the 33/67 PG/VG mark in final dilution
MFS and VZ are PG based, using my VG to come to the 33/67 PG/VG mark in final dilution
My VG and PG are USP, essential depot the vendor.
RTS = RTS, WLI = Wizard Labs Ice, WLR = Wizard Labs ‘Regular,’ MFS = My Freedom Smokes, VZ = Vaping Zone, XTR = xtreme vaping, ECX = ecigexpress
As I ‘rank’ things in order of ‘most clear’ to ‘least clear’ keep in mind that depending on what you want, or what I want, this is not a ‘best’ to ‘worst’ rating necessarily
Provari satin black, 3.3 volts to as high as I can go before things 1) scorch 2) I get an E2
For the most part I float around 7-10 watts during normal vaping, and during these taste tests
Atomizers: 5 phoenix XLs, all recoiled with 32 AWG kanthal A-1, and cotton yarn
2 phoenix 3mls, both recoiled with 32 AWG kanthal A-1 and cotton yarn
All wicks are identical in thickness and length
All heating elements are set to 2.0-2.2 ohms
The XL phoenixes are set in half cut fluxomizer tubes
The 3ml phoenixes are set in cut off vision tubes
The heating element is equidistant from the mouth end in all cases
All atomizers are tail piped 90% of the time. When I’ve used drip tips, I’ve used stainless steel, the stock phoenix tips/fluxo tips, and the vision mouthpieces. I haven’t noticed much of an influence exerted by these mouthpieces, but there is a tiny bit. So tail piping is the final word here.
All bootleg atties have been hammered through the past 7-9 days, dripped on with my cigar blend and nicotine juices. Friday evening they were flushed with scalding hot water, soaked in hot water, soaked in ethanol, and allowed to dry out over night. The wicks and coils are completely broken in, flavor is as pure as it can get with this set up.
I’ve also rotated all nicotines through my 2 IO6s and my hH.357.
This brings me to an important point:
Why the above choice of ‘atty’ ? I have only recently discovered the glories of the .357 and the IO6. If I had a sufficient number of each, I’d not only be very happy, but I would have used them to run these taste tests. But I don’t.
That said, IMO the phoenix (and the fluxomizer) used as a dripping atomizer is a close 2nd place to the IO6 and .357. No question the hybrids rule the pack, but the modded clearos are certainly a close second place. I’ve found the .357s and IO6s to confirm what I taste in the phoenix for this test.
If anything is different, it just slightly amplifies and clarifies what is already there. If these were flavors, it would likely be a different story.
I find the 3ml phoenix and XL to taste identical as well. Again, for consistency, I would love to have used 7 of the same model, but I don’t have that number of either..
Why cotton and kanthal?
IME they both deliver the cleanest taste I’ve had. This difference approaches negligible when the heating element is saturated, but becomes more pronounced when things get dry. Also seems to be less important when vaping unflavored, more pronounced when using actual flavors. These nics have all been run through a silica set up as well (the hybrid atties above) just to be safe. Again, hardly any difference.
Nicotines: 100mg/ml across the board, all cut to 33 mg/ml by borosilicate graduated cylinder, heated indirectly in a water bath, stirred, poured into glass bottles, shaken violently, allowed to settle with a portion transferred to clear plastic bottles
Vaping: I’ve sat with all nics side by side in multiple sessions. I’ve also spent blocks of time with a single nic to let it really soak in. When I do the latter, they are run through one phoenix, the IO6, and the .357. I’ve also spent a considerable amount of time using unflavored for the past few weeks in an effort to sensitize my buds (I hope LOL ) to the more subtle nuances of nic juice vs. the sledge hammer notes of regular DIY.
Double Dipping? None. Nicotines never crossed paths within a phoenix. When they crossed paths within one of the hybrids, the atty was first blown out, then blasted with PG for a while and vaped until nothing was left but the taste of PG and I was no longer spinning from hitting it.
Limitations:
Taste is subjective, and influenced by mood, surroundings, nic buzz, and a host of other things, not the least of which is my fiancé’s maltese licking himself all night and pissing me off
WLR, WLI, ECX, XTR and RTS are all VG based, with my PG used to come to the 33/67 PG/VG mark in final dilution
MFS and VZ are PG based, using my VG to come to the 33/67 PG/VG mark in final dilution
My VG and PG are USP, essential depot the vendor.
RTS = RTS, WLI = Wizard Labs Ice, WLR = Wizard Labs ‘Regular,’ MFS = My Freedom Smokes, VZ = Vaping Zone, XTR = xtreme vaping, ECX = ecigexpress
As I ‘rank’ things in order of ‘most clear’ to ‘least clear’ keep in mind that depending on what you want, or what I want, this is not a ‘best’ to ‘worst’ rating necessarily
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Clarity of Color, diluted and undiluted:
The most meaningless parameter in my opinion, but still of interest for ‘cosmetic’ reasons. Nicotine is tinted, period. Nicotine further tints with oxidation, period. I prefer getting my nic clear, just because. Yes its going to yellow a bit anyway. Minor variations in age, storage, etc, will all affect color.
I’m basing the below list on 1) what the nic looked like when I rushed in from the mailbox and opened it 2) what it looked like immediately after dilution
My findings for undiluted and diluted are essentially the same…well kind of (see below). The most clear is indistinguishable from PG, the most tinted is a subtle yellow tint.
Undiluted: XTR = VZ = ECX = WLI > WLR = MFS > RTS
Diluted: VZ = ECX = WLI > XTR = RTS = WLR > MFS
I don’t get it, but I see it, so there it is.
Clarity of Odor, Nosed, diluted and undiluted:
I will rank these in two ways, least odor to most odor, but also compare and contrast the odors because its not as simple as more or less. Again, my findings for diluted and undiluted are identical.
Nicotine smells. Being an amine, it has a characteristic (thank you for the word John!) alkaline aroma. I can smell ‘alkaline’ or ‘amine’ in all of these nics after they have been warmed slightly.
Of note: I can’t smell anything in the unwarmed XTR and VZ
ECX, WLI: Very slight basic aroma
RTS: There’s a basic aroma, probably in class with MFS, slightly less.
After my previous review I started to feel it actually smelled more than MFS. But I’ve realized its not exactly MORE aromatic, just different, in a bad way for me, so I experience it as “more odor.” There’s something else ,which is unique compared to all the other nicotines I have on hand. It’s kind of amine like, but also like a soggy, rancid tobacco, or rotting nuts. That’s a terrible description, but I don’t know how else to describe it. Whatever it is I find it bothersome.
WLR: Alkaline aroma, on par with RTS
MFS: Very pronounced alkaline aroma, in line with ECX, RTS, WLI and WLR, just louder. It hits you in the face when you take a whiff. But to me, it smells like “strong nic,” and doesn’t bother me so much, but I can see this being very annoying to some.
Clarity of Odor, nosed: XTR = VZ > ECX = WLI > WLR > MFS ~ RTS
Clarity of Odor, Vaped:
The VZ, ECX WLI, WLR and XTR are essentially odorless. I get a touch of an alkaline aroma from each, all slightly different, I’m having trouble verbalizing it. Its barely perceptible in any event. The dominant aroma is PG/VG.
RTS has little to no alkaline note I’ve found after spending time with it, but that ‘other smell’ I described above is strong and notable, and it again, bothers me. Quite a bit. In fact a get a bit queasy from it after a while.
MFS has the most pronounced alkaline aroma. I can see this being annoying to some, but depending on my mood, I may like it. Sometimes it annoys me, particularly in an aromatic juice. But it doesn’t bother me the way the RTS does, its more ‘intrusive’ and less ‘gross.’
Clarity of Odor, Vaped: XTR ~ VZ ~ ECX ~ WLI ~ WLR > MFS > RTS
Clarity of Flavor, Vaped, not drank :
Across the board I honestly don’t taste much, perhaps ‘alkaline’ but honestly what does that taste like anyway? I don’t know. This is one of those places where smell and taste really bleed in to each other and its very difficult for me to tease them apart. TH and nose burn is probably muddying the waters here as well. Tasting what I'm smelling and smelling what I taste?
MFS and WLR are the closest to having a bona fide taste. Alkaline is all I can really call it. Or nic. Again this will be bothersome so some, and bothersome for certain juices. But sometimes, I really like it wrt the MFS (I haven’t had the WLR long enough to say, but I’m guessing I will in much the same way). When I’m craving an analog, the smack in the face that MFS delivers is the cure, and this flavor is a part of it.
VZ, ECX, XTR, and WLI are essentially without flavor, with subtle differences. Its very difficult to tease apart.
My nose is likely throwing up some interference here, but the rotten nut smell of the RTS has become something I feel as if I can taste, and so unfortunately I cannot say the taste is neutral as above. There is less “taste” than MFS, by far, but I find it much more bothersome, whatever it is.
(For reasons that I do NOT attribute to actual flavor, but more the degree of “pepper” and TH (see below), the XTR, WLI and ECX seem to be the most pure, the VG/PG ‘notes’ are more apparent with these )
Perhaps this is where the uncontrolled variable of PG and VG is playing a role. The differences are very slight, and probably meaningless under normal vaping conditions, but they are there.
Clarity of Flavor, Vaped: XTR = VZ = WLI = RTS? > WLR > RTS ~ MFS
Throat Hit:
MFS, WLI, WLR, VZ, ECX and XTR all have a beast of a throat hit, about equal I’d say, and totally satisfying.
So lets say they are all very close excluding RTS, which lies at the extreme of minimal throat hit.
Intensity of TH: VZ = ECX = MFS = WLI = WLR = XTR >>> RTS
Pepper:
That’s right pepper!
I’ve come to feel that TH and peppery bite are best kept separate in my language and conceptualization, even if biochemically they are related or identical. I didn’t think about this way until I had all of these nicotines sitting in front of me, but the constant back and forth over multiple sittings has made it apparent to me that I need to, at least for now.
I’m totally open to the possibility that this is pure BS, but at this point I think there is something to it.
‘Pepper’ is like multiple, discreet ‘hot spots’ or ‘pins and needles’ on the back of my throat/upper airways.
TH is more like an evenly distributed heat, that isn’t quite as instantaneous or “in your face” or disruptive.
Pepper for me seems to have the ability to satisfy a wicked analog craving, but also throw up some interference for flavor…analogous to a richly flavored dish that simply has so much cayenne pepper in it that you can’t taste as well from your mouth being on fire. Know what I mean? “Dang that’s hot, I can’t taste what I know is there!”
TH doesn’t seem to ‘interrupt’ flavor at all.
The most peppery fellow of this lot is MFS.
Close second place is WLR.
Next comes VZ, then ECX.
XTR and WLI have truly amazed me in that they can deliver a beast of a TH, without much pepper at all. Just a pinch ☺
(Incidentally, I’m vaping TFA Absinthe at 11% at 13mg/ml nic, using WLI. I’ve never gotten a throat hit under 18mg/ml. Never. And here I am with ‘100% VG’ getting a monster throat hit. Is it the flavor? Is it the io6? Or is it the wizard? One never knows).
RTS has virtually no TH, and no pepper.
Intensity of Pepper: MFS > WLR > VZ > ECX > WLI = XTR = RTS
Aging:
Can’t really make too many meaningful observations here, simply for lack of time with a few of the players, but I’ll say what I can.
MFS and RTS seem to be the most sensitive to hanging out in a glass bottle in a dark cool place. MFS tints relatively rapidly, but never gets to the point where you think “omg gross’ at all. Just a yellow tint. MFS seems to develop more alkaline aroma with time as well.
When frozen, MFS holds up incredibly well.
RTS apparently develops more of that horrid aroma that I mentioned above, even in a cool dark place. It now lives in my freezer for more than one reason.
VZ and ECX seem to be impervious to tinting and increase in smell. I honestly don’t get it. Citric acid? Voodoo? No idea.
Can’t say much about XTR, WLI or WLR at this point.
Mixing:
First off, I vape tobaccos 80% of the time, menthol tobaccos 20% of the time. I don’t do fruits or cutes, except occasionally, and thus won’t consider that scenario except speculatively.
I also vape from 18-25 mg, and this is important.
What I’m getting at is, if you vape in the 6-15 mg range, mixing effects will likely be less pronounced, if not absent. But then again, ‘taste buds’ and I imagine “nose buds” and “TH buds” vary
I mean no disrespect to anyone, but it cracks me up a bit when people describe any given nic as ‘smooth’ and then inform me that they vape at 6 mg max. More power to you! But I’m not sure I’d notice any of the above at that level!
Can’t say anything meaningful about WLI, WLR and XTR yet.
(Well I kind of can. As I said above, absinthe with WLI at 13mg. No interference whatsoever, pure flavor, wicked throat hit. But n=1, so… )
But my sense is that WLR will be like a toned down/cleaned up MFS in its behavior.
MFS’ aromatic and taste characteristics seem to amplify when you put it in a tobacco mix. Some will love this, some will hate it. Or like me, you’ll change your mind depending on your mood, desire for an analog and beastly hit, and the flavor(s) in question. Let’s put it this way, when MFS is in a mix, it makes its presence known. Alkaline, pepper, TH, bang.
RTS’ characteristics likewise seem to amplify in a mix, most notably that ‘rotten smell’ I’ve pointed out. Whatever it is, it gets worse. Recently I made a batch of my pipe extract with RTS at 20 mg after first running it with MFS. It was awful. I tried to give it some time, and the smell just made me sick. It went down the drain.
Made it again with VZ nic. Delightful.
VZ and ECX both work great for me. The VZ makes its presence known a touch more than the ECX, as that pepper thing is more present.
The ECX runs the least ‘interference’ in a mix for me. I don’t smell it. The only thing it contributes is TH and buzz, a touch of pepper. Like the bass player, you don’t notice him, but he’s running the show.
My guess is, that the XTR and WLI will do as good of a job as the ECX, if not better, in a mix. Time will tell.
Summary:
Different strokes for different folks.
The only nicotine I’d be unhappy with here is RTS, I can’t dig it.
If I had to vape one and only one of the others, I’d make it work and be happy.
In sum I think the purest possible taste, while maintaining massive throat hit, is to be had with XTR, WLI, and ECX.
VZ is similar but adds a second pinch of pepper.
WLR is similar but adds a dash of alkaline and two pinches of pepper.
MFS is similar but adds a ½ teaspoon of alkaline and three pinches of pepper.
RTS, sorry to say, is flat.
I will keep playing and experimenting, and edit/change as things go on. I'm sorry for the very unsexy and unprovocative conclusion that we have many great nics to choose from. But I'm very pleased with this conclusion, and hope that they all stay readily available! Keep up the good work gentlemen!
Just one more time:
As I ‘rank’ things in order of ‘most clear’ to ‘least clear’ keep in mind that depending on what you want, or what I want, this is not a ‘best’ to ‘worst’ rating necessarily
Please note that I didn't use words like "BEST" "WORST" "GOOD" or "BAD" ! This was deliberate!
I look forward to your reviews and experiences!
Thank you all, and to all good night
The most meaningless parameter in my opinion, but still of interest for ‘cosmetic’ reasons. Nicotine is tinted, period. Nicotine further tints with oxidation, period. I prefer getting my nic clear, just because. Yes its going to yellow a bit anyway. Minor variations in age, storage, etc, will all affect color.
I’m basing the below list on 1) what the nic looked like when I rushed in from the mailbox and opened it 2) what it looked like immediately after dilution
My findings for undiluted and diluted are essentially the same…well kind of (see below). The most clear is indistinguishable from PG, the most tinted is a subtle yellow tint.
Undiluted: XTR = VZ = ECX = WLI > WLR = MFS > RTS
Diluted: VZ = ECX = WLI > XTR = RTS = WLR > MFS
I don’t get it, but I see it, so there it is.
Clarity of Odor, Nosed, diluted and undiluted:
I will rank these in two ways, least odor to most odor, but also compare and contrast the odors because its not as simple as more or less. Again, my findings for diluted and undiluted are identical.
Nicotine smells. Being an amine, it has a characteristic (thank you for the word John!) alkaline aroma. I can smell ‘alkaline’ or ‘amine’ in all of these nics after they have been warmed slightly.
Of note: I can’t smell anything in the unwarmed XTR and VZ
ECX, WLI: Very slight basic aroma
RTS: There’s a basic aroma, probably in class with MFS, slightly less.
After my previous review I started to feel it actually smelled more than MFS. But I’ve realized its not exactly MORE aromatic, just different, in a bad way for me, so I experience it as “more odor.” There’s something else ,which is unique compared to all the other nicotines I have on hand. It’s kind of amine like, but also like a soggy, rancid tobacco, or rotting nuts. That’s a terrible description, but I don’t know how else to describe it. Whatever it is I find it bothersome.
WLR: Alkaline aroma, on par with RTS
MFS: Very pronounced alkaline aroma, in line with ECX, RTS, WLI and WLR, just louder. It hits you in the face when you take a whiff. But to me, it smells like “strong nic,” and doesn’t bother me so much, but I can see this being very annoying to some.
Clarity of Odor, nosed: XTR = VZ > ECX = WLI > WLR > MFS ~ RTS
Clarity of Odor, Vaped:
The VZ, ECX WLI, WLR and XTR are essentially odorless. I get a touch of an alkaline aroma from each, all slightly different, I’m having trouble verbalizing it. Its barely perceptible in any event. The dominant aroma is PG/VG.
RTS has little to no alkaline note I’ve found after spending time with it, but that ‘other smell’ I described above is strong and notable, and it again, bothers me. Quite a bit. In fact a get a bit queasy from it after a while.
MFS has the most pronounced alkaline aroma. I can see this being annoying to some, but depending on my mood, I may like it. Sometimes it annoys me, particularly in an aromatic juice. But it doesn’t bother me the way the RTS does, its more ‘intrusive’ and less ‘gross.’
Clarity of Odor, Vaped: XTR ~ VZ ~ ECX ~ WLI ~ WLR > MFS > RTS
Clarity of Flavor, Vaped, not drank
:Across the board I honestly don’t taste much, perhaps ‘alkaline’ but honestly what does that taste like anyway? I don’t know. This is one of those places where smell and taste really bleed in to each other and its very difficult for me to tease them apart. TH and nose burn is probably muddying the waters here as well. Tasting what I'm smelling and smelling what I taste?
MFS and WLR are the closest to having a bona fide taste. Alkaline is all I can really call it. Or nic. Again this will be bothersome so some, and bothersome for certain juices. But sometimes, I really like it wrt the MFS (I haven’t had the WLR long enough to say, but I’m guessing I will in much the same way). When I’m craving an analog, the smack in the face that MFS delivers is the cure, and this flavor is a part of it.
VZ, ECX, XTR, and WLI are essentially without flavor, with subtle differences. Its very difficult to tease apart.
My nose is likely throwing up some interference here, but the rotten nut smell of the RTS has become something I feel as if I can taste, and so unfortunately I cannot say the taste is neutral as above. There is less “taste” than MFS, by far, but I find it much more bothersome, whatever it is.
(For reasons that I do NOT attribute to actual flavor, but more the degree of “pepper” and TH (see below), the XTR, WLI and ECX seem to be the most pure, the VG/PG ‘notes’ are more apparent with these )
Perhaps this is where the uncontrolled variable of PG and VG is playing a role. The differences are very slight, and probably meaningless under normal vaping conditions, but they are there.
Clarity of Flavor, Vaped: XTR = VZ = WLI = RTS? > WLR > RTS ~ MFS
Throat Hit:
MFS, WLI, WLR, VZ, ECX and XTR all have a beast of a throat hit, about equal I’d say, and totally satisfying.
So lets say they are all very close excluding RTS, which lies at the extreme of minimal throat hit.
Intensity of TH: VZ = ECX = MFS = WLI = WLR = XTR >>> RTS
Pepper:
That’s right pepper!
I’ve come to feel that TH and peppery bite are best kept separate in my language and conceptualization, even if biochemically they are related or identical. I didn’t think about this way until I had all of these nicotines sitting in front of me, but the constant back and forth over multiple sittings has made it apparent to me that I need to, at least for now.
I’m totally open to the possibility that this is pure BS, but at this point I think there is something to it.
‘Pepper’ is like multiple, discreet ‘hot spots’ or ‘pins and needles’ on the back of my throat/upper airways.
TH is more like an evenly distributed heat, that isn’t quite as instantaneous or “in your face” or disruptive.
Pepper for me seems to have the ability to satisfy a wicked analog craving, but also throw up some interference for flavor…analogous to a richly flavored dish that simply has so much cayenne pepper in it that you can’t taste as well from your mouth being on fire. Know what I mean? “Dang that’s hot, I can’t taste what I know is there!”
TH doesn’t seem to ‘interrupt’ flavor at all.
The most peppery fellow of this lot is MFS.
Close second place is WLR.
Next comes VZ, then ECX.
XTR and WLI have truly amazed me in that they can deliver a beast of a TH, without much pepper at all. Just a pinch ☺
(Incidentally, I’m vaping TFA Absinthe at 11% at 13mg/ml nic, using WLI. I’ve never gotten a throat hit under 18mg/ml. Never. And here I am with ‘100% VG’ getting a monster throat hit. Is it the flavor? Is it the io6? Or is it the wizard? One never knows).
RTS has virtually no TH, and no pepper.
Intensity of Pepper: MFS > WLR > VZ > ECX > WLI = XTR = RTS
Aging:
Can’t really make too many meaningful observations here, simply for lack of time with a few of the players, but I’ll say what I can.
MFS and RTS seem to be the most sensitive to hanging out in a glass bottle in a dark cool place. MFS tints relatively rapidly, but never gets to the point where you think “omg gross’ at all. Just a yellow tint. MFS seems to develop more alkaline aroma with time as well.
When frozen, MFS holds up incredibly well.
RTS apparently develops more of that horrid aroma that I mentioned above, even in a cool dark place. It now lives in my freezer for more than one reason.
VZ and ECX seem to be impervious to tinting and increase in smell. I honestly don’t get it. Citric acid? Voodoo? No idea.
Can’t say much about XTR, WLI or WLR at this point.
Mixing:
First off, I vape tobaccos 80% of the time, menthol tobaccos 20% of the time. I don’t do fruits or cutes, except occasionally, and thus won’t consider that scenario except speculatively.
I also vape from 18-25 mg, and this is important.
What I’m getting at is, if you vape in the 6-15 mg range, mixing effects will likely be less pronounced, if not absent. But then again, ‘taste buds’ and I imagine “nose buds” and “TH buds” vary
I mean no disrespect to anyone, but it cracks me up a bit when people describe any given nic as ‘smooth’ and then inform me that they vape at 6 mg max. More power to you! But I’m not sure I’d notice any of the above at that level!
Can’t say anything meaningful about WLI, WLR and XTR yet.
(Well I kind of can. As I said above, absinthe with WLI at 13mg. No interference whatsoever, pure flavor, wicked throat hit. But n=1, so… )
But my sense is that WLR will be like a toned down/cleaned up MFS in its behavior.
MFS’ aromatic and taste characteristics seem to amplify when you put it in a tobacco mix. Some will love this, some will hate it. Or like me, you’ll change your mind depending on your mood, desire for an analog and beastly hit, and the flavor(s) in question. Let’s put it this way, when MFS is in a mix, it makes its presence known. Alkaline, pepper, TH, bang.
RTS’ characteristics likewise seem to amplify in a mix, most notably that ‘rotten smell’ I’ve pointed out. Whatever it is, it gets worse. Recently I made a batch of my pipe extract with RTS at 20 mg after first running it with MFS. It was awful. I tried to give it some time, and the smell just made me sick. It went down the drain.
Made it again with VZ nic. Delightful.
VZ and ECX both work great for me. The VZ makes its presence known a touch more than the ECX, as that pepper thing is more present.
The ECX runs the least ‘interference’ in a mix for me. I don’t smell it. The only thing it contributes is TH and buzz, a touch of pepper. Like the bass player, you don’t notice him, but he’s running the show.
My guess is, that the XTR and WLI will do as good of a job as the ECX, if not better, in a mix. Time will tell.
Summary:
Different strokes for different folks.
The only nicotine I’d be unhappy with here is RTS, I can’t dig it.
If I had to vape one and only one of the others, I’d make it work and be happy.
In sum I think the purest possible taste, while maintaining massive throat hit, is to be had with XTR, WLI, and ECX.
VZ is similar but adds a second pinch of pepper.
WLR is similar but adds a dash of alkaline and two pinches of pepper.
MFS is similar but adds a ½ teaspoon of alkaline and three pinches of pepper.
RTS, sorry to say, is flat.
I will keep playing and experimenting, and edit/change as things go on. I'm sorry for the very unsexy and unprovocative conclusion that we have many great nics to choose from. But I'm very pleased with this conclusion, and hope that they all stay readily available! Keep up the good work gentlemen!
Just one more time:
As I ‘rank’ things in order of ‘most clear’ to ‘least clear’ keep in mind that depending on what you want, or what I want, this is not a ‘best’ to ‘worst’ rating necessarily
Please note that I didn't use words like "BEST" "WORST" "GOOD" or "BAD" ! This was deliberate!
I look forward to your reviews and experiences!
Thank you all, and to all good night
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Excellent stuff again CV!
The Wizard Labs "Regular" might also be known as "Fire". I like them both, but I do get something from the Fire that I especially enjoy with a bold tobacco ("pepper" + tobacco = high satisfaction). If I had to pick one, I would pick the Ice because I need that lack of pepper to keep my throat at peace more days. It's also a great go-to for an initial testing of a straight flavor since it let's flavors shine through clearly (and quickly too - some flavors still change of course, but I get great first impressions). I'd definitely miss the Fire often enough though, so I'm grateful to presently have both
Like em or not, I have to admit my surprise at just how un-satisfying the RTS was for you. Oh well, different strokes
The Wizard Labs "Regular" might also be known as "Fire". I like them both, but I do get something from the Fire that I especially enjoy with a bold tobacco ("pepper" + tobacco = high satisfaction). If I had to pick one, I would pick the Ice because I need that lack of pepper to keep my throat at peace more days. It's also a great go-to for an initial testing of a straight flavor since it let's flavors shine through clearly (and quickly too - some flavors still change of course, but I get great first impressions). I'd definitely miss the Fire often enough though, so I'm grateful to presently have both
Like em or not, I have to admit my surprise at just how un-satisfying the RTS was for you. Oh well, different strokes
You know part of me reads through that in the a.m. and thinks "wow, much a do about nothing!" lol.
The differences are minor, but when you spend time with all of them side by side they end up being magnified.
The differences are minor, but when you spend time with all of them side by side they end up being magnified.
When you boil it all down, this is all we really have to go on.
To my knowledge no vendor discloses who actually makes/processes the "pure nicotine liquid" they downmix and sell. While I understand their reasoning and don't blame them, it doesn't leave much to base a purchasing descison on, other than what is on their website, other users reviews and how they comport themselves on public forums.
I just have to go by my "gut".
When my gut makes me think of
you can bet I won't make any more purchases from that vendor.
(Yes, I know, I'm an old fart cause I can remember that picture.)
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Casey,
Ask your vendor. Ask to see test data. Some will provide it, maybe some won't.
Look the test reports over for illogical data. I'm sure you've heard the term 'pencil whipped'.
Get as comfortable as you can with your nic purchases. Never perfect, just get that 'warm fuzzy feeling'.
That's about the best you can do. Buy small at first and if you like it get more. Just remember if it comes from the 'next lot', it might not be the same.
You're correct in being cautious buying from a 'used car salesman' but don't put too much faith in customer reviews.
In addition to 'taste is subjective' some may be (unconsciously of course) biased.
You know, like Ford Vs Chevy
Ask your vendor. Ask to see test data. Some will provide it, maybe some won't.
Look the test reports over for illogical data. I'm sure you've heard the term 'pencil whipped'.
Get as comfortable as you can with your nic purchases. Never perfect, just get that 'warm fuzzy feeling'.
That's about the best you can do. Buy small at first and if you like it get more. Just remember if it comes from the 'next lot', it might not be the same.
You're correct in being cautious buying from a 'used car salesman' but don't put too much faith in customer reviews.
In addition to 'taste is subjective' some may be (unconsciously of course) biased.
You know, like Ford Vs Chevy
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Your gut is very wise Casey
As am I Wolcen. But I call 6/7 a good day.
And I agree about the "fire" and "ice" thing. If I had to pick a favorite, it would be ECX, XTR or Ice, because all the TH is there for me, and non of the 'interference.' Its as close to universally flavor friendly as I can imagine at this point.
Another oddity here is that RTS has a 30 day guarantee. I may have missed it but I don't see any mention of an attempt at getting a replacement from them. RTS tried to get the message across to the OP about the 30 day gurantee and even that was blown way out of proportion. Very curious indeed.
The real oddity is that I've reviewed 7 nicotines in this thread side by side and all you have to say, Ms. Salem, is that it's odd that I didn't fulfill the warranty.
When someone doesn't like a flavor, no one has much of anything to say.
I don't like 1/7 nics, and all of a sudden the psychoanalysis begins. Sorry but you're not in a position to analyze my motives anymore than a reviewer is to pretend he's 'scientific.'
Are you so identified with a company that it hurts your ego that I don't like something you like? I don't like the way it vapes, so what?
It's also odd that I have repeatedly said that I make no claim to 'science' and yet here you are again, parroting a previous nonsensical criticism made by another person who doesn't bother to read before posting.
You even highlighted it. That's a one up. Not only do you not read, you also make it loud and clear that you don't read.
Try re reading the first two posts before the actual review. Try re reading my response to the previous individual who thought he could set up a straw man and 'win the argument.'
Can't believe all the zealotry people. Its NICOTINE, not a religion.
When someone doesn't like a flavor, no one has much of anything to say.
I don't like 1/7 nics, and all of a sudden the psychoanalysis begins. Sorry but you're not in a position to analyze my motives anymore than a reviewer is to pretend he's 'scientific.'
Are you so identified with a company that it hurts your ego that I don't like something you like? I don't like the way it vapes, so what?
It's also odd that I have repeatedly said that I make no claim to 'science' and yet here you are again, parroting a previous nonsensical criticism made by another person who doesn't bother to read before posting.
You even highlighted it. That's a one up. Not only do you not read, you also make it loud and clear that you don't read.
Try re reading the first two posts before the actual review. Try re reading my response to the previous individual who thought he could set up a straw man and 'win the argument.'
Can't believe all the zealotry people. Its NICOTINE, not a religion.
Not sure what was blown out of proportion or who did the blowing.
"RTS tried to get the message across"
What message? "Wow, you didn't like our nic! It must have been a bad match! mwa please go correct this infidel!"
That's a completely gratuitous and narcissistic assumption, and the play of a 2 year old.
Randy showed himself to be exactly what he is in going about this as he did.
And even if I was sent a GALLON of RTS nic that performed as you and all the other fans say it should, it wouldn't change the fact that what I have looks, smells, and vapes as it does *for me*
This is not a thread about a bad batch of nic. Its a thread about what I taste. I was hoping it would become a thread about what WE ALL TASTE, no different than a flavor review thread.
I state what I experience. If you don't like that, kindly go away and stop trolling. If you disagree with that and would like to contribute, take your coat off and stay a while.
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Cyrus,
Try and find out just how many different 'brands' of nicotine you actually tried. Some vendor sell wholesale. You might not have tested 7 different ones
Another criteria for mixing comparisons should be to disclose the lot number. I shutter each time I hear "this batch is so much better than the last batch".
Try and find out just how many different 'brands' of nicotine you actually tried. Some vendor sell wholesale. You might not have tested 7 different ones
Another criteria for mixing comparisons should be to disclose the lot number. I shutter each time I hear "this batch is so much better than the last batch".
You're 100% correct. I'm coming to believe, much under the influence of a man much wiser than I, that all these "different nics' are most likely 1-3 Chinese stocks that end up being different due to subsequent processing
And you're again 100% correct, batch to batch variation is a killer. Just because something tasted the way it did to me 'in that moment' doesn't mean it will taste the same in a few days, weeks, or on the next batch.
Instead of people jumping down my throat for not liking their color of teddy bear, imagine what we could do if we channeled all this aggression into
1) offering our own comparisons that are based on actually vaping and comparing for days to weeks instead of knee jerk emotional reactions
2) asking vendors to start showing analysis for every batch they release at the very least. or at least discuss why or how this is not possible.
And you're again 100% correct, batch to batch variation is a killer. Just because something tasted the way it did to me 'in that moment' doesn't mean it will taste the same in a few days, weeks, or on the next batch.
Instead of people jumping down my throat for not liking their color of teddy bear, imagine what we could do if we channeled all this aggression into
1) offering our own comparisons that are based on actually vaping and comparing for days to weeks instead of knee jerk emotional reactions
2) asking vendors to start showing analysis for every batch they release at the very least. or at least discuss why or how this is not possible.
xtreme vaping nic unflavored at 33 mg on a .357 2.0 ohm at 4 volts = heaven
have a great day all!
have a great day all!
OK
In the first place while "some" may be doing that, I do not believe for a second most are... I have not "chimed in" until now even though I have only used RTS nicotine - WHY? Because #1 = I like to buy USA nicotine when it's great #2 It IS great product IN MY Experience..........not saying you had a different one- honestly I do not have your tastebuds- and I have not tasted YOUR nic... I HAVE gone through a few ML of MY RTS nicotine -- LOL(all PG based BTW) and have NEVER (not once) to be "clear" I am NOT trying to imply that is not true- just myself (and others I believe) have not........quite simple and IMO instead of "taking the defensive" you should accept that reality- it works "both ways " In Other Words...
RTS has a great "following " her (myself included) that is a given- YOU may not like it (obviously) but I'm quite certain you Knew this "going in" - perhaps you should think about the fact YOUR feelings and ideas are not all "that matters" (even in your own threads) ... I HOPE I am coming off as intended (not harsh or degrading - but helpful- which IS my intent) . There are literally millions of us now who vape; no way can we all agree on any one thing/detail and this is "OK" (better really) and should be expected. perhaps (just maybe) we should ALL remember fighting among our own serves no useful purpose (especially in public)????
Do yourself (and everyone else who vapes) a favor and at lest reflect on this???
- Status
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