Numb, tingly hands, funny electric shock feeling when you bend your head to your chest?

[Frenchdude]

What I find most interesting about this whole thread is folks looking at all the chemicals in e-cigs but never thought once when on analogs... I have been off analogs since my first draw on a cheap ... e-cig... I have since moved to better delivery devices... Analog free since Dec 20th and think analogs stink and am a typical reformed smoker.. Cant stand to be around them and I was a pack and a half a day smoker for nearly 37 years... Nic a vasoconstrictor? Possibly but I have rosy color in my face unlike before... can smell a bug a mile away... and food tastes amazing... more energy... no more out of breath feelings... * I dont do vaping sessions just to vape.... I like the oral fix and smoke rings... and the amount of nic that I am still addicted to.. What I did not like was dicking around with dripping or filling cartridges... the Ego type B tank with the new low res atty is a no brainer...

 

[Zelphie]

I apologize for the misunderstanding but we were not talking about nic at all.

I think ppl should stop blaming nicotine for health problems. There is a very small amount of the nicotine in the vape if any at all.
Analogs using a three steps process to deliver just a small amount of the nicotine to the body: inhale (hot smoke)-first layer on mouth mucous membrane,the smoke passing to lungs (colder one) MM and exhale (cold smoke)-second layer on the mouth MM. Plus some additives and boosters to get the nicotine fast in to a blood .This process is require a much higher heating temperature to work than on PV. And don't disregard the fact the filler in carts/cartomizers has the same functionality like a cigarette filter. It keeps nicotine and flavor oils from mixing with the base (PG/VG) vapor.

 

[MickeyRat]

Throwing in my $0.02. This is what's called annecdotal evidence. Which means that PVs can neither be proven to cause harm nor disproven to cause harm based upon it. To those that have been afflicted with this condition, you have my sympathy and I sincerely hope you get better very soon. However, about the only way a connection can be proven or disproven is to take two groups, the larger the better, one that vapes and one that doesn't and see if there's a statistically significant difference in the occurance of the condition. That study hasn't been done.

When something bad happens to us, it's natural to look for a reason. That doesn't mean there is one. It means we want one. When it happens at a time when we've made some major change in our lives, it's easy to make that association whether it's warranted or not. If you had a small group of people that quit smoking and the ones that used a PV didn't develop these symptom but, some of the ones that didn't use a PV did, it would be just as erroneous to conclude that PV prevented the condition in those that used it to quit smoking.

None of the above says that PV usage is not a causative factor in these cases. It does say that these cases alone do not represent proof of causation.

 

[slopes]

What gets missed in these discussions is the psychological responses to vaping. I think it's fair to say that many people who take up vaping do so to replace what was, for them, a heavy cigarette smoking habit. After a while it is understandable if people will try to find excuses to tell themselves (in a 'conversation with myself') to return to cigarettes. This will often take the form of seeking out symptoms - any symptoms - to blame on vaping, thus giving oneself a 'rational permission' to return to cigarettes. The more convincing these symptoms can be made to feel (and sound), and the more assertively they can be insisted on, the easier it becomes to play this 'secret' trick on oneself. In some areas of psychology - especially those concerning addictions - this is called 'enabling'.

It's useful to think about tobacco smoking in a similar way to alcohol drinking. Many people can take it or leave it (and enjoy either option), whilst for some it becomes an habitual and ever increasing felt-need. When any substance has played such a large role in a person's life, finding ways to sabotage any successful attempts at change is not at all uncommon. Recognising these attempts is where the hard - and honest - work is required.

 

[slumdog]

I used to smoke..now, I vape..I have noticed that I now feel much better than I used too on a daily basis....my brother, however is highly allergic to cigarette smoke....could'nt even smoke standing within 10 feet of him without his lungs closing up and a cough that sounded like someone forced a stack from a big rig down his throat..my pv doesn't bother him in the least...but....why wouldn't pv's be somewhat similar....as they are somewhat similar, which is why they work so well as a deterrent from smoking for some that have no release elsewhere, and believe me they have tried....

This is a perfect example, and chance to point out......Everyone on this big beautiful ball we call earth........is in fact individual....similar, but only in appeance.....I'm sure you have things in common....but did you reach this commonality on the same road.....probably not......but the key here is respect...and the willingness to share knowledge in an unbiased way as to not cause confusion or offend anyone.......I guess my point would be.....we all think we know whats best for ourselves.....and well if its good enough for me (I hope) everyone should do it...(this is just a way for our minds to justify choices we make)....well, if so and so agrees with me I must be right........I challenge everyone on this forum to show a little humility and realize that, in fact......Yes you are the most important person here.......But only in your own mind.......


And Cassie, MistressNomad.....you will be missed.....I truly believe you have touched a lot of people, and saved many lives....+1 right here...sorry I never searched you out to give a personal, and proper "thank you" but as I did find myself crushing on you I didn't think it appropriate.....



Let's all love each other...life is tough enough without creating hate....so why would you want to,

 

[shanagan]

What I find most interesting about this whole thread is folks looking at all the chemicals in e-cigs but never thought once when on analogs... I have been off analogs since my first draw on a cheap ... e-cig... I have since moved to better delivery devices... Analog free since Dec 20th and think analogs stink and am a typical reformed smoker.. Cant stand to be around them and I was a pack and a half a day smoker for nearly 37 years... Nic a vasoconstrictor? Possibly but I have rosy color in my face unlike before... can smell a bug a mile away... and food tastes amazing... more energy... no more out of breath feelings... * I dont do vaping sessions just to vape.... I like the oral fix and smoke rings... and the amount of nic that I am still addicted to.. What I did not like was dicking around with dripping or filling cartridges... the Ego type B tank with the new low res atty is a no brainer...

I was right where you were, trust me - it killed me to quit vaping. I'd zeroed in on juices that I loved, on a supplier that I felt was diacetyl-free, and life was good. Then I was blindsided by a rare neurological disease/condition. I'm not sure how much of the thread you read, but there are other -ketones (di-ketones are frequently used in the flavoring industry) that cause neuro damage. Coincidence? Absolutely. But if you were hit with a condition which hits an incredibly low number of ppl a year it would only make sense to look for what might have caused it.

As far as looking, hard, at the liquids overall - that only makes sense as well. Cigarettes and their known dangers are the devil we know.

 

[shanagan]

Throwing in my $0.02. This is what's called annecdotal evidence. Which means that PVs can neither be proven to cause harm nor disproven to cause harm based upon it. To those that have been afflicted with this condition, you have my sympathy and I sincerely hope you get better very soon. However, about the only way a connection can be proven or disproven is to take two groups, the larger the better, one that vapes and one that doesn't and see if there's a statistically significant difference in the occurance of the condition. That study hasn't been done.

When something bad happens to us, it's natural to look for a reason. That doesn't mean there is one. It means we want one. When it happens at a time when we've made some major change in our lives, it's easy to make that association whether it's warranted or not. If you had a small group of people that quit smoking and the ones that used a PV didn't develop these symptom but, some of the ones that didn't use a PV did, it would be just as erroneous to conclude that PV prevented the condition in those that used it to quit smoking.

None of the above says that PV usage is not a causative factor in these cases. It does say that these cases alone do not represent proof of causation.

For what it's worth, I've been saying the same thing all along.

 

[shanagan]

What gets missed in these discussions is the psychological responses to vaping. I think it's fair to say that many people who take up vaping do so to replace what was, for them, a heavy cigarette smoking habit. After a while it is understandable if people will try to find excuses to tell themselves (in a 'conversation with myself') to return to cigarettes. This will often take the form of seeking out symptoms - any symptoms - to blame on vaping, thus giving oneself a 'rational permission' to return to cigarettes. The more convincing these symptoms can be made to feel (and sound), and the more assertively they can be insisted on, the easier it becomes to play this 'secret' trick on oneself. In some areas of psychology - especially those concerning addictions - this is called 'enabling'.

It's useful to think about tobacco smoking in a similar way to alcohol drinking. Many people can take it or leave it (and enjoy either option), whilst for some it becomes an habitual and ever increasing felt-need. When any substance has played such a large role in a person's life, finding ways to sabotage any successful attempts at change is not at all uncommon. Recognising these attempts is where the hard - and honest - work is required.

While your point may well be one to tuck away and bring up in other threads, I really - really - don't think this is the one.

 

[shanagan]

I used to smoke..now, I vape..I have noticed that I now feel much better than I used too on a daily basis....my brother, however is highly allergic to cigarette smoke....could'nt even smoke standing within 10 feet of him without his lungs closing up and a cough that sounded like someone forced a stack from a big rig down his throat..my pv doesn't bother him in the least...but....why wouldn't pv's be somewhat similar....as they are somewhat similar, which is why they work so well as a deterrent from smoking for some that have no release elsewhere, and believe me they have tried....

This is a perfect example, and chance to point out......Everyone on this big beautiful ball we call earth........is in fact individual....similar, but only in appeance.....I'm sure you have things in common....but did you reach this commonality on the same road.....probably not......but the key here is respect...and the willingness to share knowledge in an unbiased way as to not cause confusion or offend anyone.......I guess my point would be.....we all think we know whats best for ourselves.....and well if its good enough for me (I hope) everyone should do it...(this is just a way for our minds to justify choices we make)....well, if so and so agrees with me I must be right........I challenge everyone on this forum to show a little humility and realize that, in fact......Yes you are the most important person here.......But only in your own mind.......


And Cassie, MistressNomad.....you will be missed.....I truly believe you have touched a lot of people, and saved many lives....+1 right here...sorry I never searched you out to give a personal, and proper "thank you" but as I did find myself crushing on you I didn't think it appropriate.....



Let's all love each other...life is tough enough without creating hate....so why would you want to,

As my kids say, hater's gonna hate.

 

[Automaton]

I really think always pointing to the psychological invention of symptoms is dangerous this early in the history of e-cigarettes. It is true that it may be the case for some people, but we also have no idea what the long-term effects of vaping are, and sometimes it is DEFINITELY vaping related.

I narrowed it down to a particular flavoring that was causing my symptoms. It followed a predictable time line of useage, and a predictable timeline of symptoms. It was definitely caused by vaping this particular substance.

My decision to abandon vaping all together was based on the fact that other flavorings not causing these symptoms as much doesn't mean they aren't doing the same thing to my body, just at a slower rate (whatever that may be - and I have no idea what that is). So I decided that those symptoms and unknown's, combined with my age, were a good enough reason for me to stop vaping.

It is important for people to talk about this right now. And it is important for it to be taken seriously, because these canaries in the mineshaft are all we have right now. Writing them off as crazy helps no one. Certainly there are people too quick to blame symptoms on vaping, or specific aspects of vaping, but most people I've read about who have symptoms aren't.

Unless they have a very good reason to think so, like my situation, I don't really see people outright blaming vaping. I see people talking about it and reporting back with whatever they learned from either experimenting with their vaping or talking to a doctor. That's exactly what needs to happen, and we need to stop writing it off. And even people who are blaming vaping, like I am, are mostly not saying it's some evil horrible thing. For all they know their symptoms could be very benign, and people do generally say that. But the thing is we just don't know.

"The devil we know" is true. I try not to smoke, but given my situation right now I am not being really hard on myself about it when I do. The thing is that I know exactly what is in cigarettes, what they do to the human body, over what time line, and how my genetics affect it. I can give you a pretty fair prediction of what sort of shape I would be in if I smoked a pack a day over the course of 40 years. We know this.

We don't know that about vaping.

That isn't to say smoking is better, or that I think people should return to smoking. Vaping may be better. And I think that over time, as more research is done, it will definitely become better if it isn't already. I think vaping has a bright future, if people do the necessary testing and re-formulating. I already saw some of that happening from inside the industry, and I think things will get better.

And at this point, it's down to personal choice. No one really knows anything. Trust me, I looked, and I was in the perfect position to look. No one has any more information than exists on this forum. All you can do is learn what you can, and make the best decision for you. My decision isn't "right." It's right for me.

I have had people getting really angry at me, demanding to know what happened, because they are so convinced it had to be something more serious.

First of all, ignoring the general offensiveness of such self-entitled people, they fail to realize I am not in a position to talk about certain things for reasons outside my control. None of this is insidious, it's not based on some horrible thing that happened - it's the reality of the position I was in.

Second of all, there's nothing to say. Nothing horrible happened. It really is as simple as I've explained. I had some symptoms I was uncomfortable with which are not that uncommon in vaping, and I made a personal decision. That's all there was to it.

P.S. To slumdog - Thank you, I appreciate it. I also appreciate your consideration.

On a somewhat related note to that, I did wind up taking down my content (thus the anger from some people). I strive for ethical consistency. I decided that keeping it up when I was no longer comfortable with contributing to it was ethically inconsistent. And it's not like I'm the only game in town. So I removed it. And I appreciate your understanding on that as well.

 

[classwife]

I have been following this since the beginning. (recurrent/remittant MS here...pre vaping)
I smoked for over 40 years and I am very "in tune" with my body. The "strange" neurological "happenings" are exactly the things that people need to quit brushing off and start posting about. It is the only way to get any comparisons going.

 

[loden813]

Agree...after being DX.ed with MS about 2 years ago I have tried to stay in touch with what my body says to me. I don't always follow instructions well, but I do listen. Since I started vaping and quit analogs I do feel better over all than when I smoked. It's the choice I made much like all the others thru-out my life, and for now I'll just keep all my senses on alert, just in case. Good comments from all!

 

[slumdog]

As my kids say, hater's gonna hate.

Truu, dat...................lol

 

[shanagan]

I really think always pointing to the psychological invention of symptoms is dangerous this early in the history of e-cigarettes. It is true that it may be the case for some people, but we also have no idea what the long-term effects of vaping are, and sometimes it is DEFINITELY vaping related.

Call me cynical, but if you posted this in any other thread (this one has, by and large, stayed civil) you'd just have been mob-ruled.

It is important for people to talk about this right now. And it is important for it to be taken seriously, because these canaries in the mineshaft are all we have right now. Writing them off as crazy helps no one. Certainly there are people too quick to blame symptoms on vaping, or specific aspects of vaping, but most people I've read about who have symptoms aren't.

Unless they have a very good reason to think so, like my situation, I don't really see people outright blaming vaping. I see people talking about it and reporting back with whatever they learned from either experimenting with their vaping or talking to a doctor. That's exactly what needs to happen, and we need to stop writing it off. And even people who are blaming vaping, like I am, are mostly not saying it's some evil horrible thing. For all they know their symptoms could be very benign, and people do generally say that. But the thing is we just don't know.

"The devil we know" is true. I try not to smoke, but given my situation right now I am not being really hard on myself about it when I do. The thing is that I know exactly what is in cigarettes, what they do to the human body, over what time line, and how my genetics affect it. I can give you a pretty fair prediction of what sort of shape I would be in if I smoked a pack a day over the course of 40 years. We know this.

We don't know that about vaping.

The thing that is funny is that if we report back as "guinea pigs" who feel better, it's somehow proof of the e-cig's safety, but if there's something we discuss with concern, we're crazy, we're an Anti-in-hiding, we're all sorts of stupid, etc. In your particular case, I suspect that those that seem to want to demand an answer from you are just scared - they trusted your advice before and are looking for the same now. And it's your business, no one else's - but I really appreciate you sticking your head in this thread, because I think there are some people who will listen to you and only you when it comes to potential negative side effects. Because of your videos, passionate advocacy for e-cigs, and your job with FSUSA I think you just made it further "into the fold" than many. I realize it's not pleasant at times to be in this situation, but if you don't keep talking who will?

 

[Automaton]

I think the tone of these conversations has de-escalated considerably in the past 6 months. Perhaps not - I admit I haven't been watching the forums as closely as I used to. But I've always hung out in the "shades of gray" in terms of this whole debate. I just shifted from one gray to another.

I was a guniea pig who felt a lot better after starting vaping. But then again, it took a couple years for smoking to start impacting my health in a noticeable way.

I am always apprehensive to talk about my position in the vaping world, because all I really have to say is this: I have never done anything but regurgitate the information that already exists in a well-communicated fashion. That's what I am - a communicator. But I am certainly no authority on anything. At least not any more so than any other experienced and well-researched vaper, and there are plenty of those around. I just have the ability to convey that in an easily understood way and enjoyable way. Communication is what I've done all my life, since I was first capable of speech and writing.

None of that makes me an expert. And I don't want to appear to be ungrateful or diminishing of complementation (which my friends frequently tell me I can be) which is why I historically haven't said that, but that's the truth of it. And people do themselves a disservice by taking me so seriously. They need to do their own homework and trust their own judgement.

I have little to contribute anymore. And I certainly don't want to contribute to people bypassing their own judgement. My parting shot in the vaping world won't be to advocate anything other than education, no matter where that leads you.

In a way, even though there are things that I don't talk about for various reasons, I feel much freer on the other side of story with vaping. That felt good.

 

[MickeyRat]

No one has said that any of the symptoms presented are psychological. I'm not sure I'd call the need to find a cause psychological. It's so ingrained, it's more an instinct like self-preservation. We really don't believe we live in a universe where things like this can happen to us without cause. The problem is that given this instinct, it's really easy to believe in the wrong cause. That can be as dangerous as not believing in the right cause. Sometimes it can be more dangerous.

I'd say that if you want to quit vaping because you believe it's causing you a problem, it's probably not a bad thing to do. I have little doubt that not vaping is more healthy than vaping and I'm certain not vaping won't hurt you. Going back to smoking because of that belief, is a little more problematic. That could very well be a case of believing in the wrong reason being more dangerous than not believing in the right one.

 

[Automaton]

But why? Especially if you know that vaping is indeed the problem? And especially since we don't know if vaping is truly better?

There are several theoretical ways in which vaping could be worse. We just don't know.

What we do know with smoking is that damage from it has a pretty long, slow timeframe, unless you have especially poor genetics for smoking exposure. We also know there are much safer methods of using tobacco.

We know absolutely nothing about vaping, except that there are some scenarios where theoretically it's fairly benign and some where theoretically it's extremely dangerous.

This seems a bit like Pascal's Wager to me, in a different application. There's no winning choice. Any choice you make is a guess, and there's no actual facts to base your decision on.

If what you've learned about the subject and your own reaction tells you that you'd like to keep vaping, great. But we are all guinea pigs and we know it. If we didn't, then why does pretty much no one here endorse non-smokers vaping? Even with zero-nic?

I can see the board with tobacco. And it's a pretty nice-looking board, at 22, smoking rarely, and with great genetics. I could probably do this forever and not be much worse for the wear. And by going to smokeless tobacco, my risk of future problems drops to almost nil. I don't want to keep it up, and I hope not to. But I know my odds.

But I can't see the board with vaping. No one can. We're all blindfolded.

Maybe I'd be dealing with that differently if I were considerably older, as most people here are. Maybe I'd deal with it differently if I had COPD after decades of heavy smoking, as many here do. If I were 65, maybe I'd take that risk. But I'm not.

 

[MickeyRat]

But why? Especially if you know that vaping is indeed the problem? And especially since we don't know if vaping is truly better?

There are several theoretical ways in which vaping could be worse. We just don't know.

You realize you're contradicting yourself. You know vaping is the problem and you (we includes you) also don't know whether it's worse. I have been fairly careful not to say I know one way or the other because I really don't. I will say that I'm betting that vaping is better for you than smoking because I believe odds are that it is. My belief does not a fact make. I certainly admit there is a possibility it's worse.

What we do know with smoking is that damage from it has a pretty long, slow timeframe, unless you have especially poor genetics for smoking exposure. We also know there are much safer methods of using tobacco.

We know absolutely nothing about vaping, except that there are some scenarios where theoretically it's fairly benign and some where theoretically it's extremely dangerous.

This seems a bit like Pascal's Wager to me, in a different application. There's no winning choice. Any choice you make is a guess, and there's no actual facts to base your decision on.

If what you've learned about the subject and your own reaction tells you that you'd like to keep vaping, great. But we are all guinea pigs and we know it. If we didn't, then why does pretty much no one here endorse non-smokers vaping? Even with zero-nic?

Actually, I think that a lot of the concern with non-smokers vaping is the fact that PVs are pretty persnickety to use and in the absence of the fear of smoking that most of us have, the temptation is there to just use a trouble free cigarette after a while. At least, that's the way I usually approach it. Besides, while I believe it's safer than smoking, that's not the same thing as believing it's safe. I've said previously in this thread that I believe not vaping is safer than vaping. It's a reasonable when the choice is between smoking and vaping. I don't think it is otherwise.

I can see the board with tobacco. And it's a pretty nice-looking board, at 22, smoking rarely, and with great genetics. I could probably do this forever and not be much worse for the wear. And by going to smokeless tobacco, my risk of future problems drops to almost nil. I don't want to keep it up, and I hope not to. But I know my odds.

But I can't see the board with vaping. No one can. We're all blindfolded.

Maybe I'd be dealing with that differently if I were considerably older, as most people here are. Maybe I'd deal with it differently if I had COPD after decades of heavy smoking, as many here do. If I were 65, maybe I'd take that risk. But I'm not.

If I gamble at a craps table, I can see the board too and it's stacked against me. If I gamble on the stock market, I just don't know. There are those that claim to but, really they just don't know either. More people put more of their net worth into the stock market than they plop down on a craps table for a reason. They're pretty sure it's not stacked against them but, they don't know.

For me, vaping is the same. When I look at the list of harmful substances in tobacco in any form that you do not encounter with a PV, the odds look a lot better.

Now I'll tell you my biggest concerns with vaping because no one seems to be looking at it. The flavoring. That does bother me because there are a couple substances that are known to be harmful in some flavorings. There is at least some information on inhaling the PG, VG and nic but, the flavorings are a closed book and I'm willing to bet that some of them are harmful. Hard to say they are more harmful than tobacco though.

 

[Automaton]

It isn't a contradiction. I know vaping was the problem (i.e. the cause of my symptoms). What I don't know is how big of a problem that is.

Well, that was never *my* concern when a non-smoker would come here, and get universal advice (including from me) not to vape. I held to that even at the hight of my advocacy. My concern was the health implications. There are real reasons why one would stay with vaping. Man do I miss some of the flavors!

Now a possible contradiction of your own. You're right, the flavorings are the biggest issue. The chemical make-up of a given flavor is a laundry list of its own, just like cigarettes. Having a laundry list of ingredients isn't always bad, except that we know that some of these ingredients can be. So that changes the board considerably. In other applications, some of the effects of inhaling these flavorings can be extremely serious. Even deadly. And sometimes within a much shorter timeframe than with smoking.

Does that mean they are in the context of vaping? I dunno. You dunno. Even doing the math leaves it still largely open to debate.

There is no basis to say that vaping is better. There's an equal number of reasons on either side why it may or may not be. There are certain ways you can shift those odds back into your favor theoretically, but that's only theoretically because we don't actually know what the real issues are yet. It may turn out to have nothing do with flavoring. It may be something totally unexpected, like VG, or materials in atomizers and cartomizers. We have no clue, and we have nothing similar enough to an e-cigarette to make it comparable.

Even trying to address the issues is guesswork.

It isn't hard to say they theoretically could be as or more harmful than tobacco at all, when there is absolutely no long-term information, incomplete product information, and several possible ways in which it could be profoundly harmful.

The odds only look so much better because you can't see most of the board. You don't even know the odds you're playing. It's not like craps, where you know your odds. It's not even like the stock market, where you have history and verifiable trends to go on. I really think it's a toss-up. And it could be a decade before vaping can claim to be better with any degree of verifiable evidence to back that up.

Saying that vaping is, in fact, anything, is impossible.

This leaves it completely up to a personal judgement call. And most of that judgement has to do with where you're at, not where vaping is at. Because where you're at is the only part of the board we can see.

 

[slopes]

MistressNomad - If my situation was a similar one to yours (from the little I know of your situation), I would definitely choose smoking cigarettes. I would try not to beat myself up too much about my preference and try to recognise when I was being unrealistic about the possible consequences of doing something I enjoyed.

I might hold on to the view that many of the scare stories concerning smoking are exaggerated and likely to be motivated by things other than an immediate interest in a smoker's health. I might also see that even if smoking carries proven risks, they are highly unlikely to effect me - given my age - and are unlikely to do so for another decade at the very least (unless I was remarkably unfortunate).

Knowing all this, I might decide that smoking is OK for me and gladly get on with it - with an idea to re-evaluate vaping in ten year's time... when much more will be known about its long term effects (if there are any) and the technology will have moved on.

That's not to say that I wouldn't try to manage my cigarette intake as much as manage the fears I have about it. I would also know that being a cigarette smoker doesn't necessarily exclude me from participating in vaping forums (if I can be bothered to do so), and that my choice in no meaningful way represents a failure.

But my situation is a different one to yours.