On stockpiling after FDA deeming regulations

[Upinsmoke]

ECF has restricted discussion of higher concentrations in the name of safety for the average vaper, but higher concentrations are available in the US. That said, anybody wishing to use those higher concentrations MUST research and prepare for handling them, as they are too dangerous for just mixing up by the sink without protection from fumes and contact.

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/posts/12362300

The above link is the general hysteria that was being talked back when EU TPD was past .
Here in U.K. we now live under these rules.
We are limited to 2% nicotine with a maximum volume of 10mg per bottle.
juice that contains nicotine in any strength up to 20mg/ml can only be sold in 10mg bottle.
A work around is to sell 50ml 0 nicotine in an oversized bottle and a 10ml nicotine shot which the consumer adds to their juice.
All juice has to obtain a TPD approval this costs the manufacturer around £1000 I believe.
Regulation is inevitable and ours are an overkill. For instance Juul is not legal under U.K. legislation.

One thing is for certain, regulation is coming and will have an impact on those both inside and outside of USA .
That said vaping has continued to grow in the 2 years since TPD became law.

 

[440BB]

Time, negative publicity and attrition of passionate vapers all play into the hands of the FDA, big pharma and big tobacco. They've been patient, but busy.

Of course, this could also be a play by the refrigeration industry to bump freezer sales.

 

[mikepetro]

Generally, the highest recommended here is 100mg/ml. People can buy up to 150, I think, but anything above that is not available for consumers.

Any strength you want is readily available, but you better learn the hazards, and the right PPE if you go above 150.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[stols001]

I wouldn't suggest "desperation" as a good reason to try and obtain very concentrated nic. As has been said, very high nic concentrations are not even disussed here due to the fact that things like hazmat gear and a chemical hood are needed to work with them.

I personally plan on purchasing a few more liters of nicotine before the roll out, I would even consider not buying nic salts and trying to convert my own using citric acid, if not for the fact that nic salts are more stable and have longevity. If I can get that done, I will feel... Okay. Not fantastic, but okay. I'm also gathering flavors when they are priced right.

There are many frustrations in this: the only way to know for sure that one is prepared, is to prepare for the worst, and I just hate doing that, especially when flavors have a shelf life and etc., although I'm fairly certain many will be still obtainable, although with not the ease we have today. But, it makes me bitter doing all this with absolutely no knowledge of what is to come.

Also, it is indeed true that it is easy (as one, more informed vapor) to plan ahead, but that is not the case for every vaper. And unfortunately, most new vapers remain uninformed and aren't really at the point of wanting to engage in vaping advocacy.

I can certainly understand even vape vendors hoping for the best out of all this mess, and feeling afraid, or that it might hurt their business, to educate new vapers that sweeping changes may come, and they need to be prepared. The most I've ever seen in "one" vape shop was a "somewhat reassuring" statement about the FDA's approach and starting to sell "liters of FLAVORED" juice, to "stockpile" which may not take vapers very far at all.

I just wish people would say exactly what they mean. If Gottleib's goal is to eliminate vaping (or at least change it substantially) well, have the ovaries to say it up front. JUST SAY WHAT YOUR LITTLE PLANS are.

Of course, that is the last thing I expect to see happening. You don't usher in these kinds of sweeping changes with advance notice. Germany didn't send a letter to every Jew and etc., stating "We will holocaust you," it was mostly deviant planning and rounding up the uninformed and the victims, basically. I think it's a reasonable analogy, because I do believe we will be entering "Vaping holocaust" times for a bit. Again, I don't exactly know for sure, and there were some encouraging things but mostly it's a bunch of "group think" about the horrors of nicotine.

I also don't understand why it's flavors and nicotine coming under scrutiny, without a SINGLE mention of ALL the chemicals added to cigarettes, that in essence, are going to kill off smokers faster. Because I KNOW what I would do as a smoker in such a circumstance, I would buy more cigarettes. IDK, this could be a way of BOOSTING cigarette sales, with the added benefit for "closing down" vaping, and making it less appealing. To soon to know for sure, but that is my estimate.

Anna

 

[zoiDman]

And this is why most “activists” get discouraged and give up.
After 3 years here, I have seen this hundreds of times.

Yeah... The First Rule of Activism is you Have to get the Message Out and Inform the Masses. A Couple Dozen people on the ECF Can't do that.

It's the Retailers that can Reach EVERY Vaper. But Most (just about ALL) retailers Don't want Vaper's to be Informed for 2 Reasons.

1: Vaper's might get concerned about e-Liquid availability and start thinking about How they could become Self-Sufficient or Protected against some type of FDA Restriction.

2: If the Average Vaper know how Easy DIY actual was, and the Stupendously Low Cost of doing DIY, there would be Huge Drops in Retail e-Liquid sales. And Most Retailers Can't make it selling Hardware alone.

 

[JCinFLA]

IMO, the % of vapers who have "a stash" of nic base, even here on the ECF (where info. on FDA goings on, info. on where to get + how to store nic base for longterm use, etc. is readily available)...is still very small. From what I've read on here for several years, most who don't DIY now, just don't see the need to stash some nic base for the future. It's as if they firmly believe they'll always be able to get their eliquids (and in their preferred nic mg) from shops and/or online with no trouble. When the so-called "___ hits the fan", they'll all be scrambling then trying to find nic base, to learn how to DIY, etc.

Definitely reminds me of the old "Ant & the Grasshopper" scenerio.

 

[Upinsmoke]

Any strength you want is readily available, but you better learn the hazards, and the right PPE if you go above 150.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

I thought that was the correct answer .
My guess is FDA will bring in similar regulation to EU probably with a higher limit to account for Juul type devices.
50mg/ml would work for most people.

Due to terrorists activity our government recently limited the permitted strength of hydrogen peroxide.
Where I used to be able to buy 70% solutions good for cleaning hoof infections now at around 20% it's useless.
Yet strangely I can now purchase potassium nitrate by the kg . A compound governments have closely regulated for centuries due to its use in explosives .

 

[stols001]

I could DIY with 50 mg/ml personally.

I will say deeming was a big push for DIY, but since then I have come to appreciate DIY on its own merits.

I definitely agree about the vape shops. They are looking out for their own interests, which would be selling as much juice as they can, it's the product with the least overhead. One would think that "flavor wars" would interest them, if only because of the limitations on juices that is going to occur.

Really though, the fight needs to be against over-regulation period, and this would be ONE arena where smokers and vapers could join together, honestly. Both are/will be affected.

I really think that most store owners, besides looking out for their "eliquid" sales, owners may be fearful about advocacy and being targeted by the FDA, I mean that kind of stuff happens. So unfortunately, those who have the potential to reach the most vapers are being hampered by it for a variety of reasons.

I do hope the end point winds up being workable, like in Britain where not everything is ideal, but at least obtainable. I think another huge difference here (perhaps unlike Britain) will be pricing and taxes, and that's just another unfortunate layer of things.

I don't want to feel defeatist, and I do what I can, but the fact remains that smokers and vapers equally are a small (or if growing, say with teens, then a highly politicized group). I could advocate for months and still not reach even the smallest group of politicians and special interest groups. It's unfortunate, but true.

Anna

 

[Rossum]

A couple of conflicting answers.
Does anyone KNOW.
Trade buyers can purchase 99% nicotine.
I presume Joe Public can not .

That presumption is incorrect. I personally know people who are not "trade buyers" who have purchased nic that way.

 

[Rossum]

1: Vaper's might get concerned about e-Liquid availability and start thinking about How they could become Self-Sufficient or Protected against some type of FDA Restriction.

2: If the Average Vaper know how Easy DIY actual was, and the Stupendously Low Cost of doing DIY, there would be Huge Drops in Retail e-Liquid sales. And Most Retailers Can't make it selling Hardware alone.

Yep. That's exactly what happened in my case. The only reason I started to DIY was to be sure I was FDA proof. And once I saw how easy it was, and how I could tailor it exactly to my tastes and desires, well, there was no reason for me to buy juice from anyone else..

 

[Rossum]

IMO, the % of vapers who have "a stash" of nic base, even here on the ECF (where info. on FDA goings on, info. on where to get + how to store nic base for longterm use, etc. is readily available)...is still very small. From what I've read on here for several years, most who don't DIY now, just don't see the need to stash some nic base for the future. It's as if they firmly believe they'll always be able to get their eliquids (and in their preferred nic mg) from shops and/or online with no trouble. When the so-called "___ hits the fan", they'll all be scrambling then trying to find nic base, to learn how to DIY, etc.

Definitely reminds me of the old "Ant & the Grasshopper" scenerio.

I guess I'm definitely an "Ant". I ordered my first liter of nic base on December 31, 2013, barely two weeks after I quit smoking without really intending to. I was utterly clueless about DIY at the time, but it was obvious that if they wanted to kill vaping, nic would the choke point, and I wasn't going to let anyone take this miracle away from me, ever.

 

[zoiDman]

Yep. That's exactly what happened in my case. The only reason I started to DIY was to be sure I was FDA proof. And once I saw how easy it was, and how I could tailor it exactly to my tastes and desires, well, there was no reason for me to buy juice from anyone else..

I can't recall precisely. But I think the Last Retail e-Liquid I bought was over 5 Years ago.

But I made up for it by Buying a Lot of Mods, RTA's and RDA's.

 

[Rossum]

My God. We have Vapers walking around Right Now putting Bare Batteries in there Pockets along with their Keys and Loose Change.

Think of those Same Vapers attempting to Mix Lethal Amounts of Nicotine on their Apartment Kitchen Counters?

If I ever have to mix down my doomsday stash, I plan to do it outdoors.

 

[zoiDman]

If I ever have to mix down my doomsday stash, I plan to do it outdoors.

 

[ENAUD]

If I ever have to mix down my doomsday stash, I plan to do it outdoors.

A couple sheets of plexi glass, some large gauntlet rubber gloves, and a little ingenuity and you have an airtight box to work in...just sayin...

 

[Mowgli]

I can't recall precisely. But I think the Last Retail e-Liquid I bought was over 5 Years ago.
But I made up for it by Buying a Lot of Mods, RTA's and RDA's.

I stocked up on what I like:

over 1,000,000mg of nicotine
5 used sx350j Boxer mods - EDIT to add - 10 replacement boards <--critical
a few DNA133 & DNA200s
a bunch of RX200 & 200Ss
about 25 assorted Aromamizers

I bought 8oz of Hingham Hill ~ Christmas Morning (seasonal peppermint latte) for a deep discount after X-Mas 2015. Otherwise I haven't bought juice in a few years.
Now that we're stocked me & Mrs. M vape for under $25/month vs $600/month to smoke
We're all set for vape gear so the bills are paid & my music collection is ridiculous

 

[Mowgli]

My RTS superstrength is too powerful to mix 60ml or 120ml accurately @ 3mg/ml so it'll sit until we finish the ~2 gallons of 100mg/ml. In 2030 or so I'll cut it down to 2.5L of 100mg/ml and carry on.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I could DIY with 50 mg/ml personally.

I will say deeming was a big push for DIY, but since then I have come to appreciate DIY on its own merits.

I definitely agree about the vape shops. They are looking out for their own interests, which would be selling as much juice as they can, it's the product with the least overhead. One would think that "flavor wars" would interest them, if only because of the limitations on juices that is going to occur.

Really though, the fight needs to be against over-regulation period, and this would be ONE arena where smokers and vapers could join together, honestly. Both are/will be affected.

I really think that most store owners, besides looking out for their "eliquid" sales, owners may be fearful about advocacy and being targeted by the FDA, I mean that kind of stuff happens. So unfortunately, those who have the potential to reach the most vapers are being hampered by it for a variety of reasons.

I do hope the end point winds up being workable, like in Britain where not everything is ideal, but at least obtainable. I think another huge difference here (perhaps unlike Britain) will be pricing and taxes, and that's just another unfortunate layer of things.

I don't want to feel defeatist, and I do what I can, but the fact remains that smokers and vapers equally are a small (or if growing, say with teens, then a highly politicized group). I could advocate for months and still not reach even the smallest group of politicians and special interest groups. It's unfortunate, but true.

Anna

I would not say I have become complacent as I still do belong to CAASA and do my part in making noise but there are just so many of the 'cry wolf' scenario's that I tend not to get 'up in arms' about it. Its too emotionally draining. So, of course, the answer is to stock up for a lifetime on 'ALL' of the things in vaping you enjoy. I help others with supplies when I can. In the end there is just so much one person can do.

Yes, it is sad and unfair about future vapers who won't be able to enjoy what we do, but in the end just doing the best I can has got to be enough.

When I started vaping I vowed NEVER to pay any more taxes to the tax man due to my habit. They have received more than their fair share from me when I was smoking.

And never forget the political basis for all of these regulations is all about the money because the FDA sure does not care about me or the public health for one second. They just use it to their advantage and the average joe on the street believes them.

 

[Mowgli]

When I started vaping I vowed NEVER to pay any more taxes to the tax man due to my habit. They have received more than their fair share from me when I was smoking.

"Sin tax" (on smoking) is high to offset the cost of harmful products' results.
AFAIC any tax above sales tax on vaping products is inappropriate and unacceptable.

 

[DaveP]

My 2 liters of nic are lasting nicely. I've used less than half a liter mixing at 3mg/ml in the last year and a half. I tried going to 9mg/ml for a while to see if It would slow my vaping frequency but it didn't seem to matter that much. I started at 24mg strength, but don't really want to vape that high again.

Looks like I'm good for a few more years on what's left. I may order another liter for backup, though!

Reducing the nic in cigarettes will just make smokers buy and use more cigarettes. When I switched from Red Marlboros to Merit Ultra Lights I went from a pack a day to two and sometimes three packs. The brain wants nic.

So, the FDA may just increase the cancer and emphysema rates across the U.S. if they lower nic to the ultra light level.