Possible alternative we could push instead of FDA Regulations?

[ScottP]

Most of those devices use standard AA/AAA type batteries that don't blow up if misused. The big question is if any HIGH POWERED flashlights that use 18650 batteries, for example, are UL certified. I stress high power because in order to be a good acid test of potential certification the flashlight would need to be capable of discharging at the same rates we discharge our mods. Or a reasonable rate (say 50W per 18650 battery).

While you may be correct, UL has not specifically said they require fixed only packs in ecigs, they didn't say they didn't require them either. Remember the UL is NOT there to protect consumers from themselves, if I plug a PB&J into a VCR and burn my house down, that's on me. They are there to make sure a product is properly manufactured and can stand up to basic scrutiny and tests. In other words mods that claim to be able to do 300 watts with 2 18650 batteries will never pass. Mods that claim to have short circuit protection but it fails, will not pass. Mods that do multi-battery charging but do it unevenly or don't have overcharge protections will not pass.

 

[VNeil]

I'm fairly confident my REO Grand would pass certification.

Cheers
I

What would happen if you put a protected 18650 (or any other NOT recommended 18650) in your Reo with a 0.1 ohm coil? (or whatever the lowest resistance that would not kick off the fuse)

 

[ScottP]

Mechs: Instant Fail of the forced discharge and short circuit protection tests.

Regulated Mods: Pass if decent design. Regulated mods limit the max power. The issue would be what is an acceptable max discharge rate of a mod using user replaceable batteries. They could, for example, limit a single 18650 mod to only 10-20 watts, or even much less, some number that accommodates the stupidest battery selection any idiot might make.

What would happen if you put a protected 18650 (or any other NOT recommended 18650) in your Reo with a 0.1 ohm coil? (or whatever the lowest resistance that would not kick off the fuse)

Please read my previous post to this one. The UL is not the government, they aren't there to stop us from doing something stupid with it or nothing would ever pass. Why? B/C people still use hair dryers and other electronics in the bath tub. People still put metal objects in microwaves. etc.

 

[VNeil]

While you may be correct, UL has not specifically said they require fixed only packs in ecigs, they didn't say they didn't require them either. Remember the UL is NOT there to protect consumers from themselves, if I plug a PB&J into a VCR and burn my house down, that's on me. They are there to make sure a product is properly manufactured and can stand up to basic scrutiny and tests. In other words mods that claim to be able to do 300 watts with 2 18650 batteries will never pass. Mods that claim to have short circuit protection but it fails, will not pass. Mods that do multi-battery charging but do it unevenly or don't have overcharge protections will not pass.

I did not suggest UL would or would not approve a user replaceable 18650 mod. I was directly asking if there are ANY high powered flashlights using 18650 that have been approved. Those flashlights, if they can possibly pull enough power, represent the same risk profile.

The question I am asking is this: Would UL approve a mod if there is a reasonable possibility (or probability given the law of large numbers) of an end user selecting an inappropriate variant of the basic battery, along with other user selectable parts (the coil), that would result in fire/explosion/end of the world as we know it?

Or to put it another way, can you think of any UL approved device that might reasonably be expected to catch fire or explode if the wrong battery is inserted, but a battery that physically fits? I can't. But I don't know the 18650 flashlight market very well.

 

[Izan]

What would happen if you put a protected 18650 (or any other NOT recommended 18650) in your Reo with a 0.1 ohm coil? (or whatever the lowest resistance that would not kick off the fuse)

For example:

This battery's fuse will blow at 5 amps.
The REO spring will fail at about 9 amps.
No pasa nada- No happen nothing.

Cheers
I

 

[VNeil]

Please read my previous post to this one. The UL is not the government, they aren't there to stop us from doing something stupid with it or nothing would ever pass. Why? B/C people still use hair dryers and other electronics in the bath tub. People still put metal objects in microwaves. etc.

You are avoiding the question I keep asking about UL certification of high power 18650 type flashlights. I understand that UL cannot control the misuse of a device, that is out of scope. My question is if improper battery selection is considered the same as using a hair dryer while taking a bath. I think they would look at that differently, but I am not sure. The answer, though, lies in the flashlight industry because the exact same issues should be present.

 

[VNeil]

For example:
View attachment 692337
This battery's fuse will blow at 5 amps.
The REO spring will fail at about 9 amps.
No pasa nada- No happen nothing.

Cheers
I

Then why have I read over and over here that protected batteries are dangerous when used in mods?

 

[VNeil]

Please read my previous post to this one. The UL is not the government, they aren't there to stop us from doing something stupid with it or nothing would ever pass. Why? B/C people still use hair dryers and other electronics in the bath tub. People still put metal objects in microwaves. etc.

But don't their standards require safe use (or at least safe failure) with any combination of parts that a consumer would reasonably be expected to put together? I'm having trouble thinking of a comparable product that is UL approved. I think you will find a lack of UL approved devices that use the lithium batteries we use. If I'm wrong then my question is answered, but find me the product.

ETA: a lack of HIGH POWERED devices that use our batteries. A product that would work as intended with ANY 18650 is outside the scope of our mods, unless we want to be limited to 5 watts or less (or whatever that threshold is).

 

[ScottP]

You are avoiding the question I keep asking about UL certification of high power 18650 type flashlights. I understand that UL cannot control the misuse of a device, that is out of scope. My question is if improper battery selection is considered the same as using a hair dryer while taking a bath. I think they would look at that differently, but I am not sure. The answer, though, lies in the flashlight industry because the exact same issues should be present.

I wasn't avoiding your question, you didn't ask one. Your post that I responded to was phrased as a statement, not a question, and had zero question marks. However, to answer your question, I can't think of any either but the UL has not specified anything more than what I have posted above. I also doubt we will know more until manufacturers actually start submitting devices for testing. Considering it is currently optional, unless the FDA pushes it as part of or in place of their regulations we may never get an answer.

 

[ScottP]

But don't their standards require safe use (or at least safe failure) with any combination of parts that a consumer would reasonably be expected to put together? I'm having trouble thinking of a comparable product that is UL approved. I think you will find a lack of UL approved devices that use the lithium batteries we use. If I'm wrong then my question is answered, but find me the product.

ETA: a lack of HIGH POWERED devices that use our batteries. A product that would work as intended with ANY 18650 is outside the scope of our mods, unless we want to be limited to 5 watts or less (or whatever that threshold is).

Again the UL is NOT a regulatory agency. They have no power or ability to say you can only make devices within certain parameters (5 watts). Notice there is an INSTRUCTIONS section of the tests. The UL makes sure the products work as specified BY THE MANUFACTURER when the instructions are followed. If the Instructions say use a high drain 25amp 18650 then that should be what is tested.

 

[VNeil]

I wasn't avoiding your question, you didn't ask one. Your post that I responded to was phrased as a statement, not a question, and had zero question marks. However, to answer your question, I can't think of any either but the UL has not specified anything more than what I have posted above. I also doubt we will know more until manufacturers actually start submitting devices for testing. Considering it is currently optional, unless the FDA pushes it as part of or in place of their regulations we may never get an answer.

I said previously:

"I did not suggest UL would or would not approve a user replaceable 18650 mod. I was directly asking if there are ANY high powered flashlights using 18650 that have been approved. "

It was a question without a question mark. We can not know definitively if they would approve any of our mods but a reasonable man would ask why there apparently are no comparable flashlights certified. That is a fairly big market too.

 

[VNeil]

Again the UL is NOT a regulatory agency. They have no power or ability to say you can only make devices within certain parameters (5 watts). Notice there is an INSTRUCTIONS section of the tests. The UL makes sure the products work as specified BY THE MANUFACTURER when the instructions are followed. If the Instructions say use a high drain 25amp 18650 then that should be what is tested.

The issue will come down to... if UL considers 18650 batteries ( and equivalent) to be suitable in any very high powered consumer replaceable battery applications. There is no evidence now that they are/would be considered suitable. Time will tell if vaping breaks through that apparent barrier.

 

[ScottP]

The issue will come down to... if UL considers 18650 batteries ( and equivalent) to be suitable in any very high powered consumer replaceable battery applications. There is no evidence now that they are/would be considered suitable. Time will tell if vaping breaks through that apparent barrier.

Yeah. Like I said there are a some unknowns that we will not know until manufacturers decide to start submitting devices for testing. Unless someone wants to call UL and ask maybe. Not sure if they will speak with an individual who is not representing an actual manufacturer.

 

[ENAUD]

I'm fairly confident my REO Grand would pass certification.

Cheers
I

I was thinking the same thing, a hot spring might appease that test.

 

[ENAUD]

Most of those devices use standard AA/AAA type batteries that don't blow up if misused. The big question is if any HIGH POWERED flashlights that use 18650 batteries, for example, are UL certified. I stress high power because in order to be a good acid test of potential certification the flashlight would need to be capable of discharging at the same rates we discharge our mods. Or a reasonable rate (say 50W per 18650 battery).

Most modern high power flashlights have a chipset which regulates the current to the LED.

 

[VNeil]

Most modern high power flashlights have a chipset which regulates the current to the LED.

Yes, they are designed very similarly to our mods. But are ANY of them UL approved?

 

[Izan]

Then why have I read over and over here that protected batteries are dangerous when used in mods?

I can only speculate.
They are, in general, unsuitable for our applications. (amp draw and chemistry).
However, I personally used the protected battery above (actually three ) for close to two years continuously in my Apex Alpha Ultramax. I was using 1.8Ω-2.2Ω 510 and 306 bridged and bridge-less atomizers. At the time 1.5Ω was considered "dangerously low".
Tech has advanced, I would not use protected cells today.

Cheers
I

 

[Izan]

Yes, they are designed very similarly to our mods. But are ANY of them UL approved?

Some require a more stringent certification than UL.
The Nitecore EF1 for example.

Source site
"A bare Sony, LG, Panasonic, or any other quality brand cell will not bear a UL certification until the final installation has been considered/judged/certified. The cell becomes a working part of a system that can be certified as a whole, but can not be certified individually as the cell requires external electronics in order to meet all manufacture guidelines for safe use."

"Most batteries are NOT UL certified. Not even the big brands. At most they are generally 'UL recognized components,' (that backwards RU mark) thus it is very rare that the UL mark would BELONG on a battery. UL is not required for Lithium primary & secondary batteries but UN 38.3 T1-T8 testing is required."

Cheers
I

 

[VNeil]

I can only speculate.
They are, in general, unsuitable for our applications. (amp draw and chemistry).
However, I personally used the protected battery above (actually three ) for close to two years continuously in my Apex Alpha Ultramax. I was using 1.8Ω-2.2Ω 510 and 306 bridged and bridge-less atomizers. At the time 1.5Ω was considered "dangerously low".
Tech has advanced, I would not use protected cells today.

Cheers
I

My understanding is that if you over-discharge a protected battery to a sufficient degree, the protection circuit fails... catastrophically. I have no idea what that threshold is, and thus my question. If a protected battery can handle 8.5A and fail gracefully then it might pass muster. I forgot the Reo's fuse is that "low". I thought Reos were routinely run around 0.5 ohm?

 

[Izan]

My understanding is that if you over-discharge a protected battery to a sufficient degree, the protection circuit fails... catastrophically. I have no idea what that threshold is, and thus my question. If a protected battery can handle 8.5A and fail gracefully then it might pass muster. I forgot the Reo's fuse is that "low". I thought Reos were routinely run around 0.5 ohm?

Aye, part of the reason we don't use them is the chemistry is much more volatile during a thermal runaway event.
They will vent and explode violently.

4.2V at .5Ω is still less than 9 amps.

Thank you mate.
I