Preparing For "Civil Disobedience".

[LDS714]

Ummmm... It's not propaganda. It's fact.

Might want to do some research. The current budget for the state of Texas is $94.6 BILLION.

 

[Strangebrew]

Figure the government will lock us up?!

 

[JasonV]

Ummmm... It's not propaganda. It's fact.

Might want to do some research. The current budget for the state of Texas is $94.6 BILLION.

Sorry my mistake, but its ok. You can point out my 1 error and ignore every other point I've made throughout my numerous posts. Great debating, make Rick Perry proud.

 

[LDS714]

Sorry my mistake, but its ok. You can point out my 1 error and ignore every other point I've made throughout my numerous posts. Great debating, make Rick Perry proud.

The one about BT not being for regulation, the one about the Master Settlement being propaganda or the one about the state budget?

Regulations, especially onerous ones, are only inevitable if enough people believe them to be. You're making Clayton Williams proud - relax and enjoy it.

 

[sonicdsl]

Settle down... do not make it personal.

 

[aikanae1]

It's all about the money.

Look into the Master Settlement Agreement. They're pumping billions into state and local governments (which incidentally is probably less than they would have spent on advertising). If people switch to vaping, they drop the cigarettes, costing both the politicians and BT megabucks.

Here's an outstanding post from another thread:

What is driving states to keep up those tobacco settlements is not their current operating budget. Most states SOLD their yearly payments for one time cash outs (at about $0.30 on the dollar) and that money was spent. They were pretty congfluted deals that have resulted in adding to their deficits. Wall street made money on them.

BT benefits from some of the regulations, like ending online sales. They have established markets and distribution (convienence stores, Walmarts, etc) that small suppliers don't have. Vuse has a chipset that won't allow it to work once the cartridge runs out - no DIY or refilling. On the "wish list" in the EU was single use cartridges only. They also have the pockets to do the research (however most of that will be funded at taxpayer expense which isn't available to small developers).

They have only invested in cigalikes which are largley ineffective. I suspect the market has already been divided. Ineffective devices allowed OTC and more effective (so they say) given to BP.

Gosh, what happens when something is banned? Everybody wants it. It'll follow the route of other illegals, piracy, warez in private forms, ways to stay anonymous, dark nets, not your average mom and pop stuff. They'll have to get their 13 year old to get it for them. I can't think of better advertising to attract kids than a ban.

The biggest issue is going to be getting nic across the border and payment gateways.

 

[LDS714]

Interesting.

In a social climate where 'green' is so highly valued, you'd think we could leverage that aspect against such regulation. Use & toss type devices are about as anti-green as you can get - especially something that contains as much toxic crap as batteries.

As far as getting nicotine, it is possible to do NETs (Naturally Extracted Tobaccos) as a DIY, but testing/verifying the nicotine content is a bit involved for most people.

It's sad, every roadblock to easy access of vaping gear/supplies just drives more nails into premature coffins.

 

[JasonV]

The one about BT not being for regulation, the one about the Master Settlement being propaganda or the one about the state budget?

Regulations, especially onerous ones, are only inevitable if enough people believe them to be. You're making Clayton Williams proud - relax and enjoy it.

Let me stat this again. REGULATION IS INEVITABLE. We can either help write them or we can't. I personally prefer if CASAA did lobbying for regulation that prevents vaping from being lumped up with cigarettes. There are ways to do that, like pay for research that determines whether vaping is a better alternative, chemist to create e-liquid ingredients that are safer and approved by FDA. People hear regulation and assume ban, that isn't the case IF WE WRITE THE REGULATIONS. However, if all we do is oppose regulations then we are screwed.
Are you opposed to age limitations? Preventing ingredients like artificial food coloring being used? It already happened once, people vaping product/s that had cancerous agents in them.

 

[AndriaD]

I don't have a single problem with Civil Disobedience in any form; it's the only possible answer to stupid laws. I don't construe Civil Disobedience as standing on your car with a bullhorn announcing that you feel Law x is stupid and therefore will not comply with it; it means doing whatever you're going to do, in private. In your home, or if out in public, in a discreet place and manner that doesn't draw attention. It's hard to stop people from doing things that no one knows they're doing.

And yeah I think the rebuildable stuff is where most long-time vapers end up, for this reason and probably a lot of others just as sound. Eventually I'll get there too, I'm sure, though I only just started.

And you're absolutely right about the right to life trumping anyone's "right" to pass and enforce stupid laws; in one of our own historical documents, there is a reference to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," as in, those are our rights. Denying smokers the option to vape is taking all three, because if they take your life, you have no liberty, and you damn sure can't have happiness if you're dead.

Andria

 

[aikanae1]

I don't have a single problem with Civil Disobedience in any form; it's the only possible answer to stupid laws.

Most forms of civil disobediance have been or will be made illegal. Including a decline in sales. It's been that way for awhile now (before Obama). "What they don't know" has seriously erroded. Anyone living paycheck to paycheck (80%) can't afford to be targeted / suspected and it's not only their lives that are at risk, but their families too. BP and BT wrote their own regulations. The FDA is mearly a tool, their public face. Follow the money. Corporations have more money than the gov't. They also have a legal obligation to make money without ethics or morals. "To big to fail".

I don't think anyone is against regulations like selling to minors, accurate labeling, quality assurances, etc. but the tobacco regulations don't address public health concerns. All of them propose are 100% about marketplace control.

 

[Anjaffm]

.. in one of our own historical documents, there is a reference to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," as in, those are our rights. Denying smokers the option to vape is taking all three, because if they take your life, you have no liberty, and you damn sure can't have happiness if you're dead.

Precisely.
Thank you for putting it so well

... and that was my 1000th post. On a very sad day for vapers in Europe.

 

[jpargana]

(...)
It seems people aren't understanding my position, so let me clarify: Regulations are inevitable, we can either fight them and lose no matter what or we can help write them and make sure; A) Unicorn milk mistake doesn't repeat itself B) we are not lumped in with cigarettes limited where we can vape.

Well, I surelly hope, for your good, that the US is more 'democratic' than the EU.
The new insane TPD was just voted for... and yet, the Comission managed to sidestep the treaty requirements for consultation, reasoned justification, impact assessment and scrutiny of legislative proposals. They even added around 4,500 words of new legislation about e-cigarettes. They were NOT in the original proposal, and have been negotiated in secret !!

Let me make this clear: they do not want our 'help' !! Our 'help' would only make if more difficult for them to protect their own shady interests!

 

[emus]

I have about 10 years nic. I'd buy more but not sure about shelf life or if I can bring it to another country.

 

[jpargana]

I have about 10 years nic. I'd buy more but not sure about shelf life or if I can bring it to another country.

Surelly you can!! Bring it to Portugal...!

 

[AndriaD]

I have a question... I'd gladly sign that Initiative about vaping in Europe, but not being European (except my ancestry of course!), not sure my signature would be welcome, or would do any good. Let me know if folks from other countries are welcome to sign it, and I'll be more than glad to do so.


Andria

 

[aikanae1]

I sign other countries petitions; EU and Canada. Even if they toss my signature, I figure it's a way of letting them know that the rest of the world sees what they are doing and what we think of it. In the end it's about the numbers when it comes to petitions.

I think another question might be does the public have a voice at the table? My hunch is that many of these decisions have already been decided in back room deals or through agreements such as the TPP (there is a section on tobacco) and int'l trade agreements trump sovereign laws - sometimes they have to make adjustments to the laws before the agreement is passed, but usually the courts (including the Supreme Court) sides with trade agreements. You'll also see laws passed in Congress for the purpose of "technical change to match int'l trade agreement" unanimously and unchallenged. It's been this way for 30 years.

I seriously think they are throwing out science and public health in order to get the TPP passed. In that case, the public has no vote. They believe they can make the publlic change their minds through marketing.

It appears in this case, the marketing is aimed at states and cities.

 

[FourWinds]

I have a question... I'd gladly sign that Initiative about vaping in Europe, but not being European (except my ancestry of course!), not sure my signature would be welcome, or would do any good. Let me know if folks from other countries are welcome to sign it, and I'll be more than glad to do so.


Andria

I'm not sure that there's anything for you to sign. Perhaps if you want to add your voice on a personal level however you could e-mail Martin Schulz. He's the current president of the European parliament and his mail address is martin.schulz@europarl.europa.eu , well that's the only one I know anyway He's a German gentleman, but is fluent in English.

I agree that this should be about the global rights to break away from the big money.

 

[AndriaD]

I'm not sure that there's anything for you to sign. Perhaps if you want to add your voice on a personal level however you could e-mail Martin Schulz. He's the current president of the European parliament and his mail address is martin.schulz@europarl.europa.eu , well that's the only one I know anyway He's a German gentleman, but is fluent in English.

I agree that this should be about the global rights to break away from the big money.

I'll definitely look into it; at the very least, before I emailed someone who's that big a "high muckety-muck", I need to read up and see what's actually going on.

What concerns me somewhat is that the US might look to the European example; although, that might not really be an issue -- the "morning-after pill" was available in Europe YEARS! before it was legal here, and the 'women-should-be-barefoot-and-pregnant' crowd is STILL fighting it. I reckon they'd get rid of birth control, too, if they could. I *know* Margaret Sanger is rolling in her grave.

Fighting idiots and mercenary putzes with every breath,
Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Ok, I just clicked the link in jpargana's sig line, to sign the EFVI, but it appears that you need to actually be in some state that's a member of the EU to sign that. Oh well. I'll do that read-up and send an email to Herr Shulz. It's like chicken soup... "can't hoit!"

Andria

 

[Giraut]

I live in Europe. I have a metalworking workshop, and I'm also an electronics engineer. I know one thing: the day I'm prevented from buying the devices I want, my workshop will start churning out vaping gear. The day I'm prevented from buying the juices I want, a chemistry lab will be added to my workshop and it will start churning out nicotine liquids. For me and for those like me.

I usually respect the law, but I do *not* want to revert back to smoking because of a bunch of .......s think they know better than I do what's good for me. I *will* go black market, because I'm happy when I vape, I'm miserable when I smoke, and being a non-smoker without the vaping crutch is a constant torture for me. I will do what it takes to maintain my happiness, full stop.