What we're here for do. Here's your target btw. Useful tool
30AWG, 9/8 .070" 1.778mm i.d. LL=12, t.m.c. =2.081Ω
Good luck and let us know how you make out.
- Status
What we're here for do. Here's your target btw. Useful tool
30AWG, 9/8 .070" 1.778mm i.d. LL=12, t.m.c. =2.081Ω
Good luck and let us know how you make out.
Lifted from my post on ReadyXWick - Round
A wind a day keeps the postman at bay;
To wind delay, means the end of pay day.
Good luck all!
A wind a day keeps the postman at bay;
To wind delay, means the end of pay day.
Good luck all!
I used to wind a coil or three every day while perfecting tensioned contact coils (t.m.c.'s). Once I moved on to tension spaced coils my winding technique was already perfected and wound far fewer coils. Once I landed on tension spaced twisted coils I really don't wind much any more; mostly just for demos at local b&m coil building clinics. I'm still using the original 1.4ohm spaced twisted 32g that I installed in my Lemo when I got it. Over 500ml vaped on it so far and it's still rockn' hard. Same with the 1.1ohm spaced twisted 32g in my Stmini; over 200ml so far.
I could have wound a bunch more Zippers, Claptons, Mundies, Tigers etc. coils but I have not found any benefit in those high mass coil configurations. Twisted is simple enough and provides the cool vape, great flavor and all the endurance that I need.
Still running tmc's in my RDAs though. Hard to beat a single strand or parallel contact coil in a device with unlimited juice availability and huge airflow.....
Vape onward.....
I could have wound a bunch more Zippers, Claptons, Mundies, Tigers etc. coils but I have not found any benefit in those high mass coil configurations. Twisted is simple enough and provides the cool vape, great flavor and all the endurance that I need.
Still running tmc's in my RDAs though. Hard to beat a single strand or parallel contact coil in a device with unlimited juice availability and huge airflow.....
Vape onward.....
I'd like to find a good micro coil to be run as single coil in a Protank head - tensioned it'll be
The given:
29AWG Kanthal A1
Unregulated Mod (4.0 - 4.2V depending on load)
The variables:
rod dia
number of winds
My first try was a 10wrap on a 1.5mm rod which came out as a 1.6Ohm. I'm not unhappy with it, but out of curiosity I would also like to try some different setups.
So given the wire and the mod, what setup would you aim for?
obviously mouth vaping
The given:
29AWG Kanthal A1
Unregulated Mod (4.0 - 4.2V depending on load)
The variables:
rod dia
number of winds
My first try was a 10wrap on a 1.5mm rod which came out as a 1.6Ohm. I'm not unhappy with it, but out of curiosity I would also like to try some different setups.
So given the wire and the mod, what setup would you aim for?
obviously mouth vaping
Find the earliest post mentioning 1.778 (Wire Guage #51). You want to fill the slot (1.8mm) with the maximum amount of wick to best take advantage of the best airflow. The latter would be the v3 multi-hole AFC base (well worth it). This will let you produce the most density as you'll need the air for the greater wick volume. Look around through your coil assemblies. See if you have any of the newer ones with the slotted (not round) 510 pins. The air hole is very slightly larger. Perhaps .2mm but it helps. In general, tighter winds give you faster flow (more diffusion as you're vaporizing less). So your vape will be warm a slightly more airy. Larger wind, more juice flow with slightly greater density. In either case, you need the airflow to take advantage of it. A slightly more open drip tip will help you draw more air past the 510 drip constriction.
Mentioned the wind spec for your 2.0Ω target earlier with a link.
This should give you about the best density you can get out of a Protank with properly installed (matching density) Nextel ceramic wicking or KGD. Then you can work on finding just how much you like to prolong the draw (that's to allow enough air for vaporization). You can get some decent vapor out of these things. The Protank Mega still remains one of my favorite tanks with the PT2 head and a t.mc. for many of my favorite tobacco juices. The newer airier tanks like the Mini will need some work to get there. But I'm making progress on density builds for the Subtank. News as it happens.
There you have it.
Good luck.
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Thanks a lot for the detailed answer Mac, much appreciated!
I forgot to mention that I am building on a standard single coil PT head (I assume that's v1 !?). I like those for multiple reasons:
- I believe its very reduced chamber gives more vapor density
- its easy to build on as it holds the rod
- the airflow of the center pin (bottleneck) is just about how I like to mouth vape
I'm running it on a Subtank Nano. I found a slightly smaller chimney of a Protank head clone which fits the Nano's shaft perfectly. Then stack 2 PT single coil plastic caps to seal it.
I don't really have a target, but for now I am limited to:
- 29AWG Kanthal A1
- 4.0 - 4.2V
- KGD
- airflow of v1 heads
If you mean the following quote of yours...
... I guess I wasn't too far away with my first build
So many variables...
I forgot to mention that I am building on a standard single coil PT head (I assume that's v1 !?). I like those for multiple reasons:
- I believe its very reduced chamber gives more vapor density
- its easy to build on as it holds the rod
- the airflow of the center pin (bottleneck) is just about how I like to mouth vape
I'm running it on a Subtank Nano. I found a slightly smaller chimney of a Protank head clone which fits the Nano's shaft perfectly. Then stack 2 PT single coil plastic caps to seal it.
Huh, who says 2Ohm target?
I don't really have a target, but for now I am limited to:
- 29AWG Kanthal A1
- 4.0 - 4.2V
- KGD
- airflow of v1 heads
Thanks a lot for the detailed answer Mac, much appreciated!
If you mean the following quote of yours...
... I guess I wasn't too far away with my first build
So many variables...
I forgot to mention that I am building on a standard single coil PT head (I assume that's v1 !?). I like those for multiple reasons:
- I believe its very reduced chamber gives more vapor density
- its easy to build on as it holds the rod
- the airflow of the center pin (bottleneck) is just about how I like to mouth vape
I'm running it on a Subtank Nano. I found a slightly smaller chimney of a Protank head clone which fits the Nano's shaft perfectly. Then stack 2 PT single coil plastic caps to seal it.
Huh, who says 2Ohm target?
I don't really have a target, but for now I am limited to:
- 29AWG Kanthal A1
- 4.0 - 4.2V
- KGD
- airflow of v1 heads
Believe it or not the Protank is a remarkable accomplishment as a vaporizer to Kanker's credit, as much as I have criticized them for their shortcomings. I see no reason why they couldn't have provided us better airflow sooner. I did write a paragraph beyond this about the industry but it's too intense for younger readers.
No you're not really limited. With 28 and 30 you can go denser more surface area or brighter on the high side firing faster. To both ends and the middle you can go hotter; yes, by applying more power, now that the powers that be have allowed us clearo users to breach the 15W thermal barrier. You are lucky at the incredible voyage ahead. Sorry if I mixed you up with another reader. Nominally the 1.8-2.0Ω is the middle of the performances zone for the PT. The widest range of performance for both flavor and vapor. Something like an IPV Mini and a PT is awesome good. But the v1 flat base must go and the multi-hole AFC base a must. If you can't frequently wick, consider Nextel. I wouldn't have enough time tonight to describe it once broken in especially with complex juice blends.
Ok, not going to dissuade you from using the PT head in the Nano as it will work. Once you work out sticky (closest proximity) and see what the effect does resulting from oxidation I strongly recommend you try an OCC rebuild. The reason I've not yet suggested it as I haven't actually built any of the dozen or so profiles I've done for it. Here's two 7/64" and 1/8" using 26/27 awg. Of the two I recommend for starters is the narrower as it will fit inside the wick hole. If you haven't read about the importance of localization to protect t.m.c. integrity you might want to take a peek at that. It will payoff in flavor dividends and durability. Lot's of posts by many on this here. The 1/8th wind can be localized with the smaller bit but with much care to not reduce the end turn diameters. The Nano with OCC should prove to be almost as good as its bigger siblings with enough wick in it a competent wind.
Thanks for the nod W and wish ya good luck in your adventure.
Thank you very much Mac. Does the vise grab the loose end of the wire for added tension or would I have to rely on my thumb for that? Again, sorry for the newbie question
Yes it does. Replacing the function of the screwdriver in the pic below.
Pulling on it by hand is an acquired skill. I've seen some do it but the more pressure you apply by hand the less sensitive your fingers even your wrists become in detecting changes in strain.
Take a look at the pic again from my above post How do you define easy?
The edge of the spool acts as a pivot as you push the pin vise away with your thumb and rotate. The opposite hand retains the spool keeping it stable as wire is eased from it. Holding the spool for example in a microfiber cloth for some can make it easier to hold and release some slip. A little practice and you can coordinate rotation with applied tension to the coil so as to keep it consistent. That's the objective. An even amount of strain applied end-to-end as possible. It's rather amazing just how much controlled pressure you can apply. Once you start involving large muscle groups sensation and sensitivity become more complex. Imagine trying to isolate the index finger pressure as you strike at the ball at the plate. Using this technique though nature combining several forces including leverage are doing most of the heavy lifting. All that energy you are imparting directly into the wire in a kind of memory which both forms it and causes it to retain its shape. The wire is literally trying to move towards the direction it cannot go, i.e. inside the wire next to it. And that is precisely what we want when we pulse it…that it wants to be a coil.
Ex you will save lots of time and money on experimentation with a tensioned micro in your pocket. Not sayin' you won't do any. Prolly more. But you'll have a much better handle on what is possible to do. And get it right mostly when you do. Micro, spaced or multi you'll have a far better handle on what the wire is capable of when you know its baseline performance. This method allows you to wrap to reach its optimal state.
Variations of winds are variations from this optimal state…they are all points of tension departing from the rational center of resistance for a given wire length. And the greater the adverse performance exhibited, the more inconsistency in strain is present. All the tweaking stretching and tuning appearing to so many like magic or guesswork is all about normalizing and balancing that strain. So it's time to repeat the proposition...
Tension winding creates the optimal relationship of strain and contact in a vaporizing coil.
Good luck Ex.
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A little preview of the twisted lead center post dual coil tensioned micro coil I introduced here on ECF last year adapted for the Kanger Subtank OCC
As some of you may recall the Protank2 version of The Monster TLCP came in as a 9-turn dual. For the tale of the tape...29AWG TLCP, 29/9, 2.778mm i.d., LL=14mm, t.m.c. = 1.287Ω
A 3/8" strip of KGD and backing side removed and a few fibers served to easily wick this rather long coil. Once pulsed into a micro state a rather simple feed. Cropped leaving about an 1/8" outside they performed adequately during break in of about a quarter tank. On top off I gently tucked both sides in leaving both sides to just slightly protrude. This seems to put some pressure on the saturated wick in the OCC interior bunching it up against the end turns quite nicely. It should help avert gravity sag and disconnection of the wick at the top of the end turns.
Unlike the TLCP's I build for drippers which are counter-rotated winds these are all right hand winds. The opposing tension of the leads at center balanced by the opposing exit tension of the leads. This seems to work better in this scenario at controlling the potential for skew which can be better controlled in an open build deck by butting end turns during the set.
By the by I'm using 4x1/4" KGD backing strip only (two strips folded over) without any inner loose fiber as the wicking material for the Mini RBA twisted lead parallels. An experiment to see if the straight linear fiber would contribute further to density. So far so good the experiment continues!
Good luck all.
As some of you may recall the Protank2 version of The Monster TLCP came in as a 9-turn dual. For the tale of the tape...29AWG TLCP, 29/9, 2.778mm i.d., LL=14mm, t.m.c. = 1.287Ω
A 3/8" strip of KGD and backing side removed and a few fibers served to easily wick this rather long coil. Once pulsed into a micro state a rather simple feed. Cropped leaving about an 1/8" outside they performed adequately during break in of about a quarter tank. On top off I gently tucked both sides in leaving both sides to just slightly protrude. This seems to put some pressure on the saturated wick in the OCC interior bunching it up against the end turns quite nicely. It should help avert gravity sag and disconnection of the wick at the top of the end turns.
Unlike the TLCP's I build for drippers which are counter-rotated winds these are all right hand winds. The opposing tension of the leads at center balanced by the opposing exit tension of the leads. This seems to work better in this scenario at controlling the potential for skew which can be better controlled in an open build deck by butting end turns during the set.
By the by I'm using 4x1/4" KGD backing strip only (two strips folded over) without any inner loose fiber as the wicking material for the Mini RBA twisted lead parallels. An experiment to see if the straight linear fiber would contribute further to density. So far so good the experiment continues!
Good luck all.
Attachments
A little preview of the twisted lead center post dual coil tensioned micro coil I introduced here on ECF last year adapted for the Kanger Subtank OCC…
As some of you may recall the Protank2 version of The Monster TLCP came in as a 9-turn dual. For the tale of the tape...29AWG TLCP, 29/9, 2.778mm i.d., LL=14mm, t.m.c. = 1.287Ω
A 3/8" strip of KGD and backing side removed and a few fibers served to easily wick this rather long coil. Once pulsed into a micro state a rather simple feed. Cropped leaving about an 1/8" outside they performed adequately during break in of about a quarter tank. On top off I gently tucked both sides in leaving both sides to just slightly protrude. This seems to put some pressure on the saturated wick in the OCC interior bunching it up against the end turns quite nicely. It should help avert gravity sag and disconnection of the wick at the top of the end turns.
Unlike the TLCP's I build for drippers which are counter-rotated winds these are all right hand winds. The opposing tension of the leads at center balanced by the opposing exit tension of the leads. This seems to work better in this scenario at controlling the potential for skew which can be better controlled in an open build deck by butting end turns during the set.
By the by…I'm using 4x1/4" KGD backing strip only (two strips folded over) without any inner loose fiber as the wicking material for the Mini RBA twisted lead parallels. An experiment to see if the straight linear fiber would contribute further to density. So far so good the experiment continues!
Good luck all.
Interesting attempt with the STM RBA wicking, I look forward to hearing and hopefully seeing more on this one!
I've had pretty good luck doing nearly the opposite, using only the fluff in the center with both skins removed. Although my last few wicks I've gone back to one side skinned, as they seem to flow better just slightly. Gonna have to try this skin only wick.
As a Protank user myself I've been reading most of this thread picking up some good info (and becoming mightily confused with some of the more technically detailed banner). With 2 EVODs, a Protank 2 and PT2 mini I've been working with these for years. I'm currently pre-building a few extra heads for bacon and wanted to show off some of my builds.
This 28g vertical coil was built several months ago, then swapped out and forgotten about. Cleaned off and re-wicked it's going in the Mini topping my Egos.
This is 32g twisted, just built for an EVOD for my clove juice. I've got another nine inches or so twisted for later, if the build shows promise.
Other than these, most of my coils are straight 28g 7-8 wrap micros, usually from 1.4 to 1.8ohms depending on my wildly varying build quality.
This 28g vertical coil was built several months ago, then swapped out and forgotten about. Cleaned off and re-wicked it's going in the Mini topping my Egos.
This is 32g twisted, just built for an EVOD for my clove juice. I've got another nine inches or so twisted for later, if the build shows promise.
Other than these, most of my coils are straight 28g 7-8 wrap micros, usually from 1.4 to 1.8ohms depending on my wildly varying build quality.
It all boils down to gunk. More flow more gunk. I have been getting at least twice the lifespan of a cotton wick than I would have expected on a Protank given the better airflow. I believe that more power, more efficient coiling does mitigate accretion. Just how much that can be pushed by compressing both wick density and deflection has been my focus.
Not experiencing any of the top caking seen on factory broad spaced winds. And I'm running out to 7/64" on the RBA. A 2nd gen 30G TLP is running my densest tobacco at up to 22.5W with excellent density with 4x KGD strips. Wish I could buy the stuff by the roll. Now that you could play some interesting density games with.
Having tried both methods of creating a cotton pancake interior of the OCC, truncating it and compressing it as I describe above has been a back and forth with the latter so far edging the approach most are trying. There is no concern of muting flow by compressing it through the juice hole. It serves as it always has to mitigate excess and avoid seepage to the base. And KGD is very linear in its arrangement even with the loose fibers. As with all cotton wicking a good match of wick diameter to all the choke points is optimal. If folks are experiencing dry hits it is overwhelmingly due to the exceptional vacuum these tight tanks develop when hit hard and/or with power. Left unnoticed and unresolved the vacuum will curtail flow.
What is a challenge is to appreciate when it's too much, or too little. For the Protanks it seemed suction more than compression seemed to offer the best way to generate a little vacuum and restore flow. I think Nextel had a lot to do with that as a far better conveyor of both air and juice flow than cotton or Eko.
Nice to see ya back D.
Good luck.
Hey M..., thanks for the post. Handn't seen it and was wondering what all the fuss was about.
A pretty hot coil without any oxidation insulation of the wire in an already very diffuse and quite warm tank design. Bears no resemblance in form, function, stability or flavor result to what I posted above.
But thanks, it's informative. He did a better job on his original OCC build. I would not recommend the above coil to a beginner vaper or rebuilder without expecting some frustration (as noted by a number of the posters).
A 28 gauge, 7-wrap on 3/32" will give ya 25% more surface area an a thicker wick (more flow, density potential) on a 3.44 amp draw (vs. 5.48 for a very atypically neat hand 5-wrap) for better battery service and vapor production. A tension wind on a screw driver or pin vise will yield this very predictable repeatable wind in under a minute. How many will duplicate Ripp's wind exactly and hit that 5.4Ω mark? Or even be able to calculate the wind spacing? We can do things the hard way of course if that's our preference.
It's correct to conclude that the Subtank is not a tank capable of providing a fuller vapor density. It can't. Not with the open wind designs in use until the microcoil two years ago. I vape extremely dense and complex juices particularly tobacco and have no issues reaching the density target I require. Definitely not difficult on as well engineered a tank as this, to Kanger's credit (for the exceptional airflow and tight fitment).
Not a criticism bro. A comparison. I'm struggling to see how this video benefits newcomers.
Good luck M.
Ok. I have rebuilt my Kanger heads, and they vape, but they gurgle like mad. Now, I could read back through the preceding 292 pages for an answer... or I could ask... what am I doing wrong?
Hi Shawn, good evenin'. Gonna assume you went for the centerline 28/29 9 or 10 wrap. Would help to know power and dia. But first impression when somebody's flooding is to suspect either over or under wicking. Depends when it's happening. Gurgling is an indication you're seeping juice to the base. Like a damp car battery, you're going to sputter. Before goin' nuts rewicking, make sure you're dead on to resistance. And also it's useful to know if you oxidized effectively…it went micro as you initially pulsed it. If not it will run hot, spit a soggy wick at ya. So I'm thinkin' finding the wick density. And there consider if the coil's more efficient you might need a bit more cotton than you're used to. Just a thought. Shoot us a pic if you can. I'll be around for a few. If not first thing in the a.m. if you can.
Good luck.
Thanks for the speedy response. Just put it all away, so when i next dig it out I'll take s pic...Hi Shawn, good evenin'. Gonna assume you went for the centerline 28/29 9 or 10 wrap. Would help to know power and dia. But first impression when somebody's flooding is to suspect either over or under wicking. Depends when it's happening. Gurgling is an indication you're seeping juice to the base. Like a damp car battery, you're going to sputter. Before goin' nuts rewicking, make sure you're dead on to resistance. And also it's useful to know if you oxidized effectively it went micro as you initially pulsed it. If not it will run hot, spit a soggy wick at ya. So I'm thinkin' finding the wick density. And there consider if the coil's more efficient you might need a bit more cotton than you're used to. Just a thought. Shoot us a pic if you can. I'll be around for a few. If not first thing in the a.m. if you can.
Good luck.
As a Protank user myself I've been reading most of this thread picking up some good info (and becoming mightily confused with some of the more technically detailed banner). With 2 EVODs, a Protank 2 and PT2 mini I've been working with these for years. I'm currently pre-building a few extra heads for bacon and wanted to show off some of my builds.
This 28g vertical coil was built several months ago, then swapped out and forgotten about. Cleaned off and re-wicked it's going in the Mini topping my Egos.
This is 32g twisted, just built for an EVOD for my clove juice. I've got another nine inches or so twisted for later, if the build shows promise.
Other than these, most of my coils are straight 28g 7-8 wrap micros, usually from 1.4 to 1.8ohms depending on my wildly varying build quality.
That's a nice coil B. But I'd stick with the latter 28's and make sure you got the latest Kanger core assemblies with the slotted pins. The air hole is mebe as much as .2mm bigger. And though it may.not seem much, it helps on the more powerful builds. As for twisted, I've done a few myself for the PT's and it's too much wire for the profile in my estimation. Won't get into the dynamics but you'd need a lot more air to really reap the benefits of the additional power capacity. Oh you'll get density but converting it to useful vapor requires airflow. The slotted v2 base would def help there if you don't have them and it will yield a small improvement with twisted if you say throw it on a box mod. Gotta warn ya that you'll be dispersing more vapor than you're actually generating in this closed platform. But if you want that kind of warm density I'd take it downstairs towards 1.2Ω for a more effective result than twisted…for both flavor and vapor…because you have to have the latter to get the former.
I'm glad to see some are still stickin' with the PT. There are vapes I enjoy on the cool side well served at lower power ranges by the PT Aero and Mega. But I'm thinkin' if you're lookin' to top 15W you're better off lookin at the ST's specially if you wanna work the twisties.
Good luck B.
p.s. I might add that I got dual twisted center lead (3-lead) dual coils in the Protank and got the density results I could not get with your twisted 32 AWG config. The build does require Nextel. It just scorches cotton in this small space and little air. And I don't like rebuilding every day. I went from doing dozens of high power builds to handfuls because the wind performs and it hangs.
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It all boils down to gunk. More flow more gunk. I have been getting at least twice the lifespan of a cotton wick than I would have expected on a Protank given the better airflow. I believe that more power, more efficient coiling does mitigate accretion. Just how much that can be pushed by compressing both wick density and deflection has been my focus.
Not experiencing any of the top caking seen on factory broad spaced winds. And I'm running out to 7/64" on the RBA. A 2nd gen 30G TLP is running my densest tobacco at up to 22.5W with excellent density with 4x KGD strips. Wish I could buy the stuff by the roll. Now that you could play some interesting density games with.
Having tried both methods of creating a cotton pancake interior of the OCC, truncating it and compressing it as I describe above has been a back and forth with the latter so far edging the approach most are trying. There is no concern of muting flow by compressing it through the juice hole. It serves as it always has to mitigate excess and avoid seepage to the base. And KGD is very linear in its arrangement even with the loose fibers. As with all cotton wicking a good match of wick diameter to all the choke points is optimal. If folks are experiencing dry hits it is overwhelmingly due to the exceptional vacuum these tight tanks develop when hit hard and/or with power. Left unnoticed and unresolved the vacuum will curtail flow.
What is a challenge is to appreciate when it's too much, or too little. For the Protanks it seemed suction more than compression seemed to offer the best way to generate a little vacuum and restore flow. I think Nextel had a lot to do with that as a far better conveyor of both air and juice flow than cotton or Eko.
Nice to see ya back D.
Good luck.
Tension is the light and the way on the path to a heavenly vape folks... I am so sold on it!
Thanks to mac and drifter for this thread and their contributions to it!
I'm going on near a month with my last tmc stm rba coil build, and I am also getting exceptional life from my wicks. I have not HAD to change a wick yet, nor have I burnt one. I'm really only changing wicks because I needed to clean the coil. Upon inspection of the wicks, there's only a very minor light tan color at the choke points (end turn area of my wicks).
Unfortunately the mass producing/marketing coil manufacturers would never go to a tensioned coil... they'd lose too much of their consumables profits! <--- Even though it would be the environmentally sane thing to do!
Thanks Mac! Now, I have to ask about the slotted pins: what exactly do you mean? I have a few different versions of the assemblies, and the pins are all slotted. The main coherence being some are slightly tapered at the bottom where others are flat - hopefully this picture illustrates that.
As for airflow I've been meaning to drill out and enlarge the holes on the base of the PT mini and the EVODs slightly; I use carbide drill bits for destroying hard drives for work which should be fine. Can the pin holes also be drilled out?
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