Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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M_DuBb716

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Page 24, Post #231.. I was a little off hah but here it is
:p
As of lately I have been making twisted 32 gauge coils that I think I'm falling in love with,lol.

I take a single strand of 32g and fold it in half so both ends are even, then I get out my electric drill and but the center where the fold is in-between the chuck on the drill and tighten it till it pinches the wire tight to hold it.

then I take a pair of pliers and hold the other two ends tight, while applying some tension I then turn the drill on while it laying on the table on its side and it twists the crap out of the wire.

Now I don't know how many twist it does but it alot, I usually go until one end of the wire brakes, either at the drill or the pliers.

Then I wrap a normal microcoil on a 1/16 drill bit.

The vapor and flavor in my opinion is a step above a plain coil.

The only down side, at least with the juice I use, is that it tends to gunk up a little faster.

But to me if the flavor and vapor are better it worth it, the last time I twisted some I did about 2 ft of twisted wire, so I wont need to twist any for a while.

Here is a pic of the wire after twisting it.
Sorry if its a little crappy my camera phone sucks

ary6ygy9.jpg


If you hold enough tension the twist stays pretty consistent.
 

M_DuBb716

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Mac's Back!! :D
What's up man. I'll be attempting one of my first 28g attempts tonight, I've been looking back on this thread and your tables have been very useful. Thanks again Mac! I'll check back in in a couple hours when I start the build.

I'd like to shoot for my usual resistance of 1.9ohms, but I know the 28g will take longer to heat up and I don't want to wrap too many times (12+), so I'll probably shoot for about 1.5.. Not too sure yet though. I only have my 1/16" bit (1.5875mm) and 16g bit (1.65mm) to wrap on, kinda wish I had the 1.75mm drill bit.
.... Either way, I should be building in a couple hours, I'll update than
Hey f1ve, good evening. Twisted awg32 actuallyhas the approx res. of 28g and you can use that as an approx. Depending on high tight (or not) you twist it that rough index can vary. If you torsion/tension wind it (yes you can!) that can have an impact too. I posted some tables on this thread for some 28g wind values, you may be able to extrapolate from there to compute your expected res. Once you twist yours though check the res. for a given wire length and compare against TEMCO's 28, you can prorate a result from there by comparison. Not going to go any further OT than to say look at your mail in a few for some pic's of the experimental build I'm working out for a promo. Any questions, let me know. You can tell me what you're building.

Good luck.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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And a 28g micro on my PT1 should perform well with my eVic (3 to 5volt/11watt limit), shouldn't it? I won't need like 15 watts to get it cooking good, will I? I like to stick around my 6-7watt green zone
:)

28 tight 10 should keep you just under 1.5 and safe on eVic through almost 4.1v b4 cutoff.

Working through 29 awg sets and new wick media trials all around. Busy. Things are pickin' up.

Good luck.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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Anyone tried a twisted 32 gauge build? I ran out of 30 gauge and Temco was out, ended up getting 32 gauge and want the durability of 30.

Page 24, Post #231.. I was a little off hah but here it is
:p

Here's some pretty sick twisted torsion for ya. Knarly on the outside, smooth on the inside.

Good luck.

:)

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M_DuBb716

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Ok guys, did the 28g build. It didn't come out perfect but most of the wraps were touching eachother. Mac, I was going to go for 11 wraps, but I took your advice and tensioned it down to 10 wraps (from about 16). I figured 10 wraps would be better for my eVic anyways, since any more wraps would take a while to heat up, with thicker 28g wire.
.. Well I tested it on my eVic and it came in @ 1.1ohms. A little lower than I hoped, but it will fire at about 8 watts. I dry/test-fired it and squeezed it tight with tweezers - this part made the coil a little wonky, like I usually do, but still okay.

I wicked it with cotton, primed it with a few drops of juice, filled up my tank, and I've been letting it sit for about 10 minutes now. I figure I might as well try it out anyways!! I usually vape around 6.5-7 watts, but the lowest my eVic will let me go with this 1.1ohm coil is 8.1w/3volts..
:p
I'm pretty sure 1.1ohms is the lowest coil build that my evic will even fire, I don't believe it will fire a 1.0ohm coil so I got lucky!! Next time I'll try 11 wraps, but 12 might take too long to heat up on this battery.
.................... Btw, I took pics of the entire build and I'll probably post them tomorrow. About the try this bad boy out now, I'll let you know how it goes!
:vapor:
 

MacTechVpr

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Ok guys, did the 28g build. It didn't come out perfect but most of the wraps were touching eachother. Mac, I was going to go for 11 wraps, but I took your advice and tensioned it down to 10 wraps (from about 16). I figured 10 wraps would be better for my eVic anyways, since any more wraps would take a while to heat up, with thicker 28g wire.

Good thinin' babalui. Good test. Good approach. Working out the kinks on the compromise of 29 AWG on KPT's at the moment myself. Does help in transitioning some of those coils to small drippers or tighter builds elsewhere.

I just have concluded that 28 AWG is just overkill on the Protank. I don't believe the results many are reporting as simply unsustainable or producing the kind of results most of us can enjoy. I'm certain it happens, some get it, but it doesn't play nice, not for long. And, even as I've watched all the hoopla from Rip T on down, the confines of a KPT cup are so limiting and the wonkiness of its 510 connect so unpredictable that it's futile to expect a consistent result. It will blow off with the slightest change, including normal use. An exercise. If you want to fiddle or press the envelope on the oft chance that it may, fine; but, it gets undependable and so it's not for the folks as it...just doesn't work. I'll explain why using your example...

.. Well I tested it on my eVic and it came in @ 1.1ohms. A little lower than I hoped, but it will fire at about 8 watts. I dry/test-fired it and squeezed it tight with tweezers - this part made the coil a little wonky, like I usually do, but still okay...I'm pretty sure 1.1ohms is the lowest coil build that my evic will even fire, I don't believe it will fire a 1.0ohm coil so I got lucky!! Next time I'll try 11 wraps, but 12 might take too long to heat up on this battery.
.................... Btw, I took pics of the entire build and I'll probably post them tomorrow. About the try this bad boy out now, I'll let you know how it goes!
:vapor:

I want to correct a misconception here. There is no big advantage in torching coils. As I mentioned early on it can degrade the wire. Nothing more frustrating than putting together a great wrap, trying to improve an end turn after the torch squeezy thingy and snapping a wire doin it'. It is easy to break a wire once its torched. So squeezing and torching and compression and pulling to rewind are tools, a means to an end. But frankly mostly theater. Not necessary. Useful sometimes to lend rigidity to a wrap once perfected, not if you're only then going to de-wind or reform it in any way. That defeats the purpose. I demonstrated or discussed them as a means to introduce certain concepts on this thread. I believe the REO community on this forum, most familiar early adopters of the microcoil, has been aware of this from their early use of contact coils, that it gets to a better coil integrity when you anneal and pulse on the mod. So God forbid anyone should take away that my suggestions should be construed as gospel, rather presented as useful exercise. I'll state if they're my conclusions, as I have above. So don't take my word for it, try it, do it. That's what I encourage. Testimony is great, but its just that, anecdote. Make up your own mind always. Prove all things. And if we really want to be of memorable importance to those around us, on this thread or anywhere, share and teach the means for people to accomplish that.

On to your build M…and I've concluded, you have a short. As I've suspected for a time and can't tell you exactly why but also suspect it may be resulting from part of your build technique, as it was for me. At some juncture you may be deforming a wire somewhere. Here's the why…the lowest theoretical resistance for the wind you describe is ~1.299Ω (a total approx wire Len of 75.17mm, inc 7mm/8.25 neg/pos minimal observed leg Len for the KPT). If you're seeing anything less than that, and unless I am mistaken about the math, you have a short. And as you know eVic's are phenomenal at resistance variation errors on installation. I'm guessing this time it wasn't.

So this is just not a story, like so many on ECF, and folks can get some context here, the following link provides a fairly good calculator for estimating the wire length parameters for your build. There are many available on the internet, here's one for you to expedite your cross-check now. Use TEMCO's wire tables of Ω/ft specs, unless you're using other. And you now have a report on min found values for leg length from me. I can only affirm I've measured many dozens of them. I don't save them for posterity. The few survivors are working in drippers. Too easy to spool a new one. Here you go with a screenshot of your build spec following the link…

Helical Coil Calculator

mactechvpr-albums-general-picture294671-helical-coil-units-inch.jpg


(Sorry the pic is arbitrarily scaled: LenW=2.359, DiaD Ø=0.0751, N=10, S=0.)

For me M the goal here and on Metalhed's thread has been simple. Use precise coil wind localization, stabilization and termination as a first step to get folks towards targeting temperature, through some essential typical res. targets and then through the use of the most efficient and simple wind/build method possible to make a proper electrical coil. I think we're just about there with this last step providing an approach to proving assumptions.

Please do M as you sort out this termination issue, try to do the wind off the coil as the possible simple answer. It is far and away more difficult to try to keep them wires straight and honest with an external object like a needle nose, even though far better than hand/finger pulling. And believe it or not there is more tension, more consistently applied off a spool. It's the separation pressure we can apply with hands and forearms, even for a child, that is greater and constant. That's what guides the wire straight. It does not take a lot of pressure at all to get to a threshold where you see adhesion occur from wire to wire. Once that happens you're golden. A few tries and you will feel exactly how much is required to get there and the immediate form integrity that results. I don't know exactly how many Neutons of force but I'd guess a child has a greater concerted hand/forearm pull strength at least equal to if not greater than the average man's grip strength (especially crunchy squeezy thumb and index which is at most 50% of that).

When you do this, I'd love to see the result and the resistance outcome your first try.

I really hope this is helpful to you and those trying to get past that first real trial of building of a proper electrical coil, not just a best stab or guess. It makes a hell of a difference when you actually get it. And I encourage all to try.

Good luck.

:)
 
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M_DuBb716

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Thanks again Mac, for the great advice/info and words of encouragement. Suprisingly, this 28g 1.1ohm micro is vaping pretty nicely! Good flavor and vapor @ 8.1watts.. This is the lowest resistance device that I have used on my eVic, and actually enjoyed.

But I will get some more practice and see what I'm doing wrong. This is Temco wire for sure this time, I got it at a new vape store and saw him un-wind it from the spool. One quick question Mac - when you begin to wrap your microcoil, do you start with the kanthal parallel to the bit you are wrapping on? I am, and figured you were too, after seeing your scotch-tape technique a few pages back.

Thanks again!
 

Mazinny

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I finished my second and third coil ever yesterday, using 28 g kanthal i bought from Temco ( I also bought 32 g, but i find it too fragile too handle ). I increased the number of wraps from 9 to 10 hoping to get a higher resistance than the 1.4 i got with my forst coil. Surprisingly, the resistance read 1.4 on one and 1.2 on the other (maybe my coils are getting tighter ? ). I put the 1.2 coil in a protank 2 and the 1.4 coil in an evod. I am getting excellent flavor, throat hit and vapor from both. The 1.4 coil on the evod gives me good results with a peach tobacco juice from 5 to 9 watts and starts to taste burnt at 9.5 on my vamo v5. The 1.2 coil on pt2 gives me good flavor from 6 watts all the way to 12 watts with a 60/40 pg/vg 12 mg nicotine naturally extracted tobacco, although the throat hit is way too much for me above 8.

I had planned on buying some drill bits, a torch and some organic or sterile cotton and watch a bunch of videos, before starting the re-builds, but the wire from Temco arrived sooner than i expected and i couldn't help but to rush into a build with some regular cotton and a drill bit of unknown size i had around the house (i am guessing it is 1/16 ). Anyhow i am absolutely delighted with the results even though i was hoping for higher resistance. I have had absolutely no leaking or gurgling or dry hits even though i didn't put the silicone thing on the stem.

It is either easier to rebuild pt heads than i thought, or i have been extremely lucky ! Funny thing is i had no intention of rebuilding my old protank heads, and had ordered the wire in preparation for a kayfun lite and patriot clone on their way from china, until i came across this thread. So thank you guys !

I had abandoned my protanks after about one month and ten coil heads from two different vendors and had moved to Iclear 16's and I Clear 30S and Aspire bdc's. I thought the protanks were rubbish even though i liked how they looked and the fact that they were glass. I am now going to have a ridiculous number of clearomizers in rotation, with two rebuildables on their way. I think i am absolutely done with hardware purchases for two years at least i figure. I have 15 I clear 16 heads, 10 I Clear 30s heads, 15 Aspire heads ( which i will try to rebuild next ! ) and also 10 used pt heads and 15 brand new which i thought i would never use !

Thanks again guys for this thread, it has been a great help !

One question though, if i vape at 8 watts, will the battery consumption differ if i use a 1.2 resistance coil or a 1.8 ?
 
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M_DuBb716

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Awesome Maz!! Glad it was easy for you and that we could help. As for your question - Yes, battery consumption will differ between a 1.2ohm and a 1.8ohm coill (at 8 watts).. With your 1.2ohm coil, at 8 watts, your battery is running at about 3.1volts (3.09838667697v, to be exact). With your 1.8ohm coil @ 8 watts, your battery is running @ about 3.8volts (3.7947331922v). So your battery will drain quicker with the higher resistance coil, since it needs to pump more Voltage through it to get to the same power (8w).

Here's a formula I use to figure out the math:
.... (Voltage)*2/(Resistance in ohms) = (Wattage/Power)
^^ In your case, it would be ((V)2)/(1.2ohms)=(8watts).. And cross multiply to figure it out. So 8watts multiplied by 1.2ohms equals 9.6 < the square root of 9.6 is your voltage (3.09....v)
 

M_DuBb716

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So I started having problems with this 28g 1.1ohm micro, towards the bottom of the tank.. I tried upping my wattage from 8.1 to 9watts, just to see how it tasted and vaped. When I tried vaping it, I got an "Atomizer Short" message, and noticed the resistance was now showing 1.0ohm. I unscrewed and re-screwed the protank, and it says 1.1 again. But it's been fluctuating back and forth a little bit, so I'm guessing the coil is really somewhere around 1.05ohm, since I know my eVic rounds up/down.

And a little bit of gurgling, flooding, and leaking - but I usually don't let my PT1 get as low as it is now. And it could also be my wicking because I rushed that a bit, after the build.
... Either way, if I have time tonight, I think I might try doing the same build and see if I can get a higher resistance (about 1.6mm, 10 wraps of 28g). Mac I know this build came out real low in res, but I remember all my builds seemed to be a bit lower than yours before, also
 

Mazinny

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Awesome Maz!! Glad it was easy for you and that we could help. As for your question - Yes, battery consumption will differ between a 1.2ohm and a 1.8ohm coill (at 8 watts).. With your 1.2ohm coil, at 8 watts, your battery is running at about 3.1volts (3.09838667697v, to be exact). With your 1.8ohm coil @ 8 watts, your battery is running @ about 3.8volts (3.7947331922v). So your battery will drain quicker with the higher resistance coil, since it needs to pump more Voltage through it to get to the same power (8w).


Here's a formula I use to figure out the math:
.... (Voltage)*2/(Resistance in ohms) = (Wattage/Power)
^^ In your case, it would be ((V)2)/(1.2ohms)=(8watts).. And cross multiply to figure it out. So 8watts multiplied by 1.2ohms equals 9.6 < the square root of 9.6 is your voltage (3.09....v)

Thanks, MDub, so maybe an added benefit of the lower ohm rebuilds is that i can take my svd or vamo 5 to work in 18350 mode. These particular apv's get pretty ridiculous to carry around in 18650 mode. Currently i get about 6 or 7 hours in 18350 mode witha 1.8 to 2.1 ohm coil in my Aspire or Innokin I Clear 30s, vaping at 8 watts. If i can get another two hours with a 1.2 ohm coil in my pt 2, this would be an added bonus, on top of the better taste of cotton.

Good luck on the rebuild btw !
 

MacTechVpr

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Thanks again Mac, for the great advice/info and words of encouragement. Suprisingly, this 28g 1.1ohm micro is vaping pretty nicely! Good flavor and vapor @ 8.1watts.. This is the lowest resistance device that I have used on my eVic, and actually enjoyed.

But I will get some more practice and see what I'm doing wrong. This is Temco wire for sure this time, I got it at a new vape store and saw him un-wind it from the spool. One quick question Mac - when you begin to wrap your microcoil, do you start with the kanthal parallel to the bit you are wrapping on? I am, and figured you were too, after seeing your scotch-tape technique a few pages back.

Thanks again!

First, I'm delighted to hear what you're reporting; that you saw this technique in use at a B&M. I've been walking the technique around personally for months to retailers and our local S FL vapers group for months. The faster this approach is adopted, the faster new vapers will adapt and move forward into the wonderful opportunities you now know exist. Plenty of time to explore other alternatives once we're past the crunch moments. And that's what I love to see.

Now specifically whatever is used whether a bit, screwdriver or other mandrel, some tape will do or anything that will firmly hold the wire end in place. The first wind can be loose and squeezed down tightly with some tension onto the shank's base at the grip. Thereafter as tension is applied, if enough tension, the turns simply lign up. Same principle if you use a motorized drill. Apply enough tension to the wire and it will simply spool onto the drill. A thing of beauty. This is not new science. I am only seeking and promoting its application here.

Was talking to a vendor at their studio earlier this evening before dinner about the simplicity of it. I had demo'd the wind a few days back and he recalled — I did it blind, 16 turns perfect after I got that first one started. So it's a matter of getting the tension right. Just enough so that physics takes over. It takes substantially more effort at that point (or a let-off of pressure, more likely, to induce an overwrap or discontinuity of adhesion. A consistent strain applied and the turns fall into place; or better said, fall in line.

Now interestingly, we spoke about this also. Consider what if more tension than is necessary is applied? You have a minimum for adhesion. What if you add? The wire starts to minutely flatten. Ask yourself what this implies. Answer: More turn to turn contact surface. Not a physicist, but in my estimation that just promotes a greater efficiency of conductivity for the coil. The better the contact, the better the conductivity. Another way to look at this is to look at the inverse, we lock in the resistance, in the same manner that we do with a tight lockdown at the posts on a dripper. The tighter the adhesion, the tighter the lock and so the potential for variability. Tension improves the stability of the coil.

Now I'm not suggesting we break a hand and arm doing this. There's likely a point of diminishing return here for human winding. However, this is where a jig or mechanization could prove beneficial particular for thicker gauges if they were being so used. But they're not particularly as I've observed on this forum. Many prefer winding by hand on blunt needles for example. They are in costume jewelry and several quite inexpensive versions of devices used in that hobby have shown up in various posts of late. Not sure how adaptable they might be because we should remain interested in a variety of wind diameters needed to fine tune resistance targets for the devices we use. So these simple tools may not be that helpful unless they happen to be 1/16" and we know how much you love that spec.

Good luck!

:)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Mac I know this build came out real low in res, but I remember all my builds seemed to be a bit lower than yours before, also

As I mentioned in a previous post or my pm to you, there was a specific mechanical act, part of my build, that was inducing a short each and every time. I just wasn't aware of it. I had to re-analyze the process step by step taking into consideration each aspect and element of the connection, i.e. end and individual turns, pos leg, termination, etc. and consider the physical motions involved in the set, before and after. To examine how each impacted these elements.

The scenario was manual repositioning of >1.75mm winds, located down the slot (Eko) with a smaller bit inside for stability. Specifically using 28 AWG and high turn counts. I would bring these down on a different bit than wound, then set (legs, grommet and pin). Sometimes later realignment of the coil was necessary to better center it in the slot. There was a lot of play on the smaller bit. Terminating 28 AWG is tricky if you can't maintain constant tension on the end turns. You also are trying to avoid over compressing the coil on the wick, so avoid tensioning. In this example every time I made an adjustment after the set apparently that minute movement was enough to deviate the termination slightly enough to induce a short. Could never find where exactly the contact was being made when I finally accounted for it, but the after set motion of adjustment was evidently the cause. And this proved the main reason I stopped building and testing 28 AWG for the Protank. My conclusion, a lack of practical repeatability across a broad scale of resistance on the KPT form factor.

Yet 30 AWG has proven itself to be an almost perfect ideal for the KPT both more durable and manageable than 32 AWG with apparent improvements in vaporization. I'm now working through 29 AWG with none of the incidental contact instances I experienced with 28 AWG. Objectively though I am building far tighter now with tension both for the coil and termination. These undoubtedly help. That couldn't be done with some build diameters and 28 AWG. But try and try again we certainly can.

Some thoughts M.

Good luck.

:)
 
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humpstyles

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Reporting back after some finagling:

PT2/Evod head + 32ga Kanthal + 2mm hollow braid Ekowool.

I managed to scoop 2 drill bits, a 1/16" and a 5/64", just to experiment with different sizes. Since I was using Ekowool instead of cotton, I was not able to thread and twist it through the already seated coil, so I stuck the 1/16" bit directly through the hollowing of the Ekowool to give it a backbone to work off of. I used a standard bic lighter on the kanthal to make it more malleable and less springy. I proceeded to wrap a 4/3 (I finally understand what this fraction reference pertains to) around the Eko and drill bit, then placed the coil inside the head. I bent off the legs in opposite directions, slid the drill bit out nice and slowly, reassembled, and clocked in at 2.0 ohms. When I fired it, all the wraps glowed very evenly to my surprise.

I really thought I did everything right, however, after filling up, sitting for an hour to allow a more saturated wick, and taking about 10 puffs, I just got a bad taste in my mouth. I was producing decent vape, but I almost didn't even want to fire it for more than a few seconds due to the taste. I'm almost positive it is the Ekowool. I have read that some have either boiled it then let it dry, or torched it with a butane lighter, which I did not have the access to at the time. Some have also simply held the coil/wick combo over a gas stove and toasted it. Need to experiment more.

I think I am just going to pick up some organic cotton and give that a go since it doesn't require as much work as Eko. Anyone have any experience or suggestions for Ekowool?

Also, when I feed the coil legs through the atty body and bend them over the insulator and post, does it matter which leg gets bent over first? Also, does it matter in what direction? When I do this step, the only caution I take is to make sure the legs are on polar opposite sides of each other, and that they are snipped as close to the insulator as possible. I also make sure the legs aren't crossing and that they feed straight down. Do I need to make sure they are facing a certain position?

Cheers,

hump.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Reporting back after some finagling:

PT2/Evod head + 32ga Kanthal + 2mm hollow braid Ekowool.

I managed to scoop 2 drill bits, a 1/16" and a 5/64", just to experiment with different sizes. Since I was using Ekowool instead of cotton, I was not able to thread and twist it through the already seated coil, so I stuck the 1/16" bit directly through the hollowing of the Ekowool to give it a backbone to work off of. I used a standard bic lighter on the kanthal to make it more malleable and less springy. I proceeded to wrap a 4/3 (I finally understand what this fraction reference pertains to) around the Eko and drill bit, then placed the coil inside the head. I bent off the legs in opposite directions, slid the drill bit out nice and slowly, reassembled, and clocked in at 2.0 ohms. When I fired it, all the wraps glowed very evenly to my surprise.

I really thought I did everything right, however, after filling up, sitting for an hour to allow a more saturated wick, and taking about 10 puffs, I just got a bad taste in my mouth. I was producing decent vape, but I almost didn't even want to fire it for more than a few seconds due to the taste. I'm almost positive it is the Ekowool. I have read that some have either boiled it then let it dry, or torched it with a butane lighter, which I did not have the access to at the time. Some have also simply held the coil/wick combo over a gas stove and toasted it. Need to experiment more.

I think I am just going to pick up some organic cotton and give that a go since it doesn't require as much work as Eko.

Also, when I feed the coil legs through the atty body and bend them over the insulator and post, does it matter which leg gets bent over first? Also, does it matter in what direction? When I do this step, the only caution I take is to make sure the legs are on polar opposite sides of each other, and that they are snipped as close to the insulator as possible. I also make sure the legs aren't crossing and that they feed straight down. Do I need to make sure they are facing a certain position?

Cheers,

hump.

Short answer: The legs terminate opposite the direction they come off the wind.
Short answer: Yeah, you probably needed to boil that Ekowool really well.

Gotta tell ya. I loved Ekowool on 5/64" in the KPT. But very difficult to stabilize it. You can't put tension on the legs when you set them without potentially distorting the wick which sits now on a bit smaller than the wind. All kinds of problems can ensue. The fastest answer is to wind the 1/16" and set it tight and go with cotton. That will give you results fast. For a description of the fiddly set, unavoidable as its a 510 connect, here...

Post#408: Protank MicroCoil Discussion!! t1 - Page 41


If you can't wind the 1/16" directly off a spool use a forceps or needle nose plier to hold the wire while you turn it onto a screwdriver keeping a constant tension. Your first few times will not be perfect on the alignment issues. No worries. This will come. But your coil will be perfect if you tension it. This will save you weeks of struggle sorting out things like coil shorts (hot spots) and resulting flooding.

We'll try to talk you through this here if you're up to trying this.

Good luck.

:)
 
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