You are too funny. I am so sorry to see you get screwed.
Nice wind. Gotta watch those wild legs tho.
I'll get back to you on the wire later.
Niters.
- Status
You are too funny. I am so sorry to see you get screwed.
Nice wind. Gotta watch those wild legs tho.
I'll get back to you on the wire later.
Niters.
THIS.
And that is why I am so grateful you and Mac and others share the results of your experimentation with those of us who don't have the same curiosity and patience ! This type of curiosity, patience, and quest for improvement (in any field ), is not common (despite Macs proclamations to the contrary
You are too kind maz (but all of us appreciate your appreciation).
Goodnight, good luck.
I have a question please. I am getting pretty good at wrapping 30g, 1/16" coils. coming in at my goal of 2.0-2.4 Ω. I am using organic cotton or KGD for wicking. Problem is I get this constant gurgling. I have tried the 2 cup solution but it does not solve my problem. I suspect not enough wicking in the coil?????? Sometimes I don't get the gurgle but I do get a tight draw, which leads me to suspect this. Any suggestions/advice?
TIA!
TIA!
Hi clnire, how's it doin' your neck of the woods?
Agree with f1ve, sounds over saturated, wet sponge time. Been there done that. Never got it right in a small tank myself. But I think I'll stand a better chance with JC and with cig around n all his sperimentin'. You've got a sweet wind there with 30g on 1/16. Will get you right around 2Ω, the holy grail zone for the KPT methinks. Any under that with that spec and there's a problem. Next time round for me I'm halving the cotton when I run into this picture and upping the power. Good tight wind like that gives good power delivery potential for that size wick (vs the silica and eko I was runnin). Had I done that early on I'd probably still be threading cotton. Probably be tryin' CC (lyocel) too soon but the small Ø winds I've tried today have been unproductive. So holding off on a report here. May have to run parallel comparative setups to really be fair to the build and yield. Waiting on a second mystery dripper.
Good luck and…show us the funny papers!
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I have to "go to town" tomorrow (I live in the boonies) and there is a Sally's. May see if I can pick up some CC to play with.
Thanks for the input
More putzing around tomorrow. Such fun!
pardon the typos, on my phone
Thanks for the input
More putzing around tomorrow. Such fun!
pardon the typos, on my phone
I have a 1.8 ohm 1/16th 29 gauge pt2 with CC in it. Absolutely rocking. Sometimes with cotton/kgd/RxW, as I was getting closer to the end of the tank, I'd get some gurgling and leaking. Or if I let it sit for a few days, the cotton would get over saturated and I'd get juice in my mouth. I've had my CC in my pt2 for 4 days. No juice in my mouth, no gurgling.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
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I did some kanger style coils this weekend with the Rayon from Sally's. Followed someone's advice to use 1/16 instead of 5/64. Pulled off a chunk, then pull a piece pencil wide. Wet and twist the tip, gently pull it through, it looks like too much but should not smash the coil. If needed pull on both ends to stretch it flatter. Cotton swells when wet, rayon does not. It will collapse as the air space works out. The extra fluff at the end seems to keep it from flooding and the wick ability keeps the coil wet, rather than choking.
Short answer: Blow out wick if power level above 3.8V you should be able to finish tank, or close to it. Not, and you may have a coil/wick pigment saturation issue.
Nextel has incredible flow. Once the wick's broken in it will sustain. If there's a let up in efficiency it will flood. Big time. So you have to analyze potential causes. Coil gunk saturation can occur no matter how much you blow out in a couple of days with heavily pigmented juices. Don't catch it and you hit that minimal threshold that Nextel requires and you end up over saturated (same thing with cotton). It does help to keep the power levels higher. I'm running 9W with most juices these days even slightly higher at times as viscosity drops. But point of diminishing returns for flavor somewhere above 10W so not much point and it's more than Nextel requires.
Same as coil grime accumulation is wick pigment saturation which can occur even sooner than surface coil grime. The tipoff is precisely what you mention a rapidly increasing level of wetness (evidenced by subtle gurgling as viscosity decreases [sorry, not increases]). Happening in the top two thirds, inefficiency. At least time to blow out, top off and check the base. Key clue, any moisture beginning to bypass the base threading. I almost use it as an index that if juice reaches thread two at any point it gets pulled to the wash no matter how long it's been in. By then you are starting to see some get down to the bottom of the Aero base. Even if minute it affects continuity and bingo there starts the rapidly diminishing efficiency curve.
Time also opportunely to check for coil defects at the wash like loss of adhesion on dry burn, hangers, etc. Not worth fixin guys. Fodder for the ultrasonic.
Lot there to soak in, lol, but I think you get my point. Keep the wick/coil running efficiently. Wash/soak when in doubt and a quick pulse deters the wicks from developing grime bars for dry pulsing. And most accumulated pigments will torch out if need be from center. If resistant, I just rewick and end up with a relatively clean flavor wick. Sort of like trying to save money on spices cooking. I don't' compromise flavor for 3/8" of Nextel. Have enough of these coils on standby and you got a half dozen at the ready at any time. Well, at least I do (or a new one is seconds away).
Good luck.
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Revisiting your post, I see it was more about the observation on cc brook (and cotton generally). And hey, ok, I can see that. Checking over the build in the Nim/Origin this a.m., like KGD it doesn't seem to be as prone to sag as ordinary cotton. Not totally unexpected as it's more linear than rolled or loose cotton.
I get it! LOL You really like CC.
I'm ready to hear back from a lot of folks and would like to watch this and do some more exacting comparisons. I'm just not seeing that result as I posted about on the…Protank Cotton Rebuild, the way I do it - Page 54 thread...
CelluCotton (lyocell) first impressions...
Cellucotton and tobacco and match?
This morning the last and the densest wick set seems to be settling in and producing a bit more of the same airy vapor. Yet I'm still seeing the same uniform sublimation of taste I experienced breaking in. I have read several commenters posting CC likes more power so fresh batt of course and it did seem to help going from about 3.9 to 4.1+V. It'll be interesting to put this on a variable with tobacco as I suggested.
Getting to the nitty gritty with some sleep finally after my apartment flood I'm recollecting some of tech reads on the fiber properties. I may have mentioned somewhere on ECF that lyocell exhibits fiber delamination or fibrillation. I'm thinking brook that this wick should be producing a heck of a lot more flavor given the amount of vapor output and rate of evacuation of the wick itself. Had me scratchin' my head last night. But perhaps the very fibrillation effect which sets in at temp's above 200 deg. may be playing a part. Something to watch. I don't have the extreme magnification necessary to view it. Wish I did. But perhaps someone else does and can comment if reading these pages. If the media's fiber is that sensitive (and why they use some sophisticated chemistry to temper that phenomena) it may prove to be an inhibiting factor to some flavor pigments being effectively vaporized. You would see a lot of vapor production and yes as super_X_drifter accurately posted very clean tasting. And it well could be that with certain pigment/flavor particulate sizes entrapment or suspension occurs in the fiber leaving some flavors to dominate in vapor volume thereby appearing to "pop" as some say. A theory, too early to give much merit to but which would seem to explain the enigma. Something like supe's straight VG would be totally unaffected and suggest unmitigated flavor output. And pigment color is not necessarily an indication which types of flavors might be affected, rather the typical agglomeration during vaporization at temperature. A complex study certainly, which practically none of us are in a position to adequately undertake. At the heart of this issue of fiber pigment suspension though. An area of interest to me in evaluating the performance of all these types of wick media.
So the call will have to remain out for me until I put more types of juices through this wick media and I try to get a sense as to what's happening with the flow.
I haven't tried the Shisedo yet and it's juice transport's supposed to be pretty spectacular. I guess I kinda shoulda.
I am going to get some into the hands of a few rebuilders and a couple of extremely taste sensitive people I know for impressions.
Thanks brook we'll keep at this. Post here.
Good luck.
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All, my recent tests on KGD have been stellar. Best vape ever with my dirty nets using 2.2mm coils in my evods and PT's. KGD expresses juice to the coil similar to redyxwick but with the added bonus of permeability.
Don't have a source for cc rayon close by but would love to try it. PM me if you feel like pif'n.
Cig
Don't have a source for cc rayon close by but would love to try it. PM me if you feel like pif'n.
Cig
I've gone through my sample pretty quick parsing it out to pro and customer builders at all the B&M's I frequent for impressions. Most by and large eschew KGD preferring organic for this low Ω builds with a couple of exceptions I work closely with on tension winds.
I'm getting pretty good vapor, not extraordinary but not pushing power through CC. Interestingly the other way around, on a very airy Omega under VW. There it's responding to power handily and flavor is quite good. But my result with my tobacco bases has not been gratifying with very rapid buildup at the coil and resulting loss of performance. The 2nd iteration of my Trident/Origin build looked as dismal as the first within 24-hours. The pigment buildup is not leading to fouling the taste like conventional rolled cotton or even KGD but it does subdue the performance. At three builds and about a dozen wicking experiments it's too early for me to arrive at any hard and fast conclusions. I wrote brook some perhaps premature observations. But things settled a bit with the non-tobacco on output after I reverted to a moderate wick thickness and stopped listening to the double-up invocations.
Yeah and that was a big surprise to me too how much KGD mimics Nextel in its flow characteristics. The fibers are only twice the breadth but nowhere nearly as compressed or symmetrical in their alignment. But whatever combing process they use it's quite effective. I marvel they can accomplish it and not damage the fiber length which is an important key in performance for us…the continuity of fibers. That's what flow is all about. I was watching a video by an industry expert that the cotton used for this type of finished cotton is the crap cotton, the dregs. The finest virgin cotton has very long stranded, very directional fibers naturally.
Actually did two hybrid KGD/CC builds today both Tobh's on 26650's using KGD as the primary and lots of CC as flow channel media in the well and the results were pretty impressive. These were B&M demo's of the type I routinely do for owners and their clients. In this instance using a newb to train (3rd n 4th builds) on high tension 26 AWG winds and sets. I did the fine tuning, final alignment and wicking; let the fella do the basic set and pulsing. Some like this young man are impressive. Perfect t.m.c. 1st time out, Then a perfect dual solo. These young kids and their motor skills. Damn. He'll get some opportunities from the shop owner.
Busy day. Fun day. Hope yours went well.
Good luck.
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As stated in earlier posts I'm running tests for rxw in a mpt2 with no flavor wick. In order to do so one must devise a way to block off the area of the wick slot above the coil to prevent flooding. The chimney seal from a pt3 will work but requires a modification because it extends too far down; all the way down to the flange in fact.
Using a red hot heated 16gauge finish nail I burned two small grooves (wick reliefs) into the bottom of the pt3 seal to match the rxw wick where it exits the wick slots. Perfect fit!
When attempting this you must make the grooves large enough that the RXW is not compressed in any direction but small enough to resist leakage.
Been rock'n on 30awg 8/7 .070dia (non-contact) coil with RXW and experiencing great vapor and flavor density with very much extended dryburn intervals as compared to the contact coil version used in my first testing cycles.
Hope someone out there will try this and give us feedback.
cig
Using a red hot heated 16gauge finish nail I burned two small grooves (wick reliefs) into the bottom of the pt3 seal to match the rxw wick where it exits the wick slots. Perfect fit!
When attempting this you must make the grooves large enough that the RXW is not compressed in any direction but small enough to resist leakage.
Been rock'n on 30awg 8/7 .070dia (non-contact) coil with RXW and experiencing great vapor and flavor density with very much extended dryburn intervals as compared to the contact coil version used in my first testing cycles.
Hope someone out there will try this and give us feedback.
cig
Incidentally, we must be on the same dream path, I've been looking at this 2.2mm diameter very closely for certain chemistries. I just got in my first set of #44 drill blanks. Bad part is I use them in combo with matching Ø instrument drills as I often buttress the pos or neg side of the coil under strain to form the leads at the set. So now I need a light pin vise. The collection grows, huh?
Looking at this problem comprehensively, the whole issue of vapor production hinges on transport. The more the better generally if there is adequate power to drive vaporization. And that's what a t.m.c. does in spades particularly with Nextel. With that, however, comes the woeful fact that the most effective carriers are directional which means the conduits are necessarily narrower spaces and more apt to trap or inhibit more dense globules of pigment. These can then cook as they do at higher wattage adding to the carbonization on the coil itself. These two factors ultimately attenuate efficiency…and yer done.
I don't believe microcoil schmicrocoil makes a diff or gonna change those physics cig. I'd like to hear the argument tho. Been all up and down that scale. There are other plausible explanations for your results such as the juice densities themselves, PG ratios, etc. I don't believe it can be categorically stated that non-contact coils are excluded from these physics. Your general conclusion seems to suggest that. Cool it down enough and you can prolong the life of your set, yes. At the end of the day no matter, the constraining factor is the wicking media as I explained above. Better transport and power, vape like a dairy cow chucks gas...and disaster just happens more quickly.
Unfortunately, tobacco requires good power and excellent wick delivery to experience it's fullness.
So I would say that separating the coils will most certainly cool down the vape. And this sometimes is confused with improved efficiency when in fact its just deterring (or postponing) what is the unfortunate and inevitable outcome, GUNK.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. Square peg, round hole situation as I described.
Happy Fourth!
Good luck.
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One of our generous members sent me a sample of CC. I have been experimenting with it and so far I like it. Flavor is as good as organic cotton and KGD. I think for certain flavors it enhances the flavor more. The thing I really like about it is it is much more forgiving with the thickness of the wick. I seem to have a problem with too much wick causing tight draws, gurgling and having to rewick once again. But I am learning! Not nearly as much of a problem with CC. A small amount that would have possibly caused problems with cotton is not a problem with CC. Although I don't see it replacing organic cotton for me in the long run (I have so much cotton!!) I will continue to work with it and who knows? Perhaps it will. 
But I am learning! Not nearly as much of a problem with CC. A small amount that would have possibly caused problems with cotton is not a problem with CC. Although I don't see it replacing organic cotton for me in the long run (I have so much cotton!!) I will continue to work with it and who knows? Perhaps it will.
One of our generous members sent me a sample of CC. I have been experimenting with it and so far I like it. Flavor is as good as organic cotton and KGD. I think for certain flavors it enhances the flavor more. The thing I really like about it is it is much more forgiving with the thickness of the wick. I seem to have a problem with too much wick causing tight draws, gurgling and having to rewick once again.
Glad to hear you're liking it! While it is forgiving, it's definitely something that takes some time to get used to. I had the cotton density down perfectly. There's a slight learning curve to reach maximum potential for this wick. Then you hit it and it's simply fantastic. Much like the first tensioned micro coil. Takes some time, but when you find it, everything changes.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
Hi Brook, and thanks again for being that generous member.
You know early on almost a year ago I almost gave up on Nextel. Yep, true. You see Nextel's inter fiber spaces are conspicuously narrow. Consequently I believe large pigments tend to accumulate quite rapidly in XC wicks. Back then knowing that new vapers are still acclimating at lower power as in the green zone such was not going to bring out the best in this wick. In fact, it would tend to prematurely saturate the wicks with pigment. Particularly with conventional coils and their often unpredictable heating results.
I gave Nextel the benefit of a doubt for it's potential and utility despite the prevalent misunderstandings about its safety. Kept on refining ways to improve performance with break-in, coil fit and preventive maintenance as I described to cigatron. For the moment CelluCotton has joined my repertoire of wicking tools and for similar reasons as I try to better understand its suitabilities.
I've managed to tweak out some excellent vapor response from CC but regrettably not the hopeful expectations of both that and flavor. Again for some of the very same reasons. Both Nextel and CC have great potential to deliver great flavor but have very specific criteria for doing so. CC's utility comes in its ease of use and a great many will not be very cognizant of its flavor nuances. For some it will be the ideal as it genuinely articulates the best in their juice preferences for reasons I've commented on elsewhere. But it is not uniform in its production of flavor in the way that Nextel is up to its saturation limits. In both the limitation is based on power. And power upwards of 8W results in both more flavor production and a quicker saturation of trapped pigments in both. The utility advantage of Nextel is that it can undergo a quick rinse right on the atomizer and it's back to the job. For CC in that it's cheap and a simple rewick. Both have their own economy.
I for my part experience taste deficiencies with CC from the jump. One and the most significant is the attenuation of certain flavors. But it will likely take me some time, as it did with Nextel, to determine what type of flavor pigments are involved. For some juices it may be the blessing that makes them not only palateable but outstanding. For others, not so much. Secondly, for me it produces a much dryer hotter vape even with very cool tension wound twisted pair. The result is not so much the flavor as the texture of the vapor I sense as a chalkiness in the taste context. Much like organic cotton as it starts to dry. Just as the yellow of a boiled egg has a different texture as a scrambled egg and consequently tastes differently.
As an example Brook, in my absolute fav multi APV juice, a bourbon facsimile, the natural Madagascar vanilla and bourbon spice constituents are grossly sublimated while the excellent organic VG and its sweetness are pushed to the front. It's still a great vape. The flavors are there but unquestionably altered in their apparent respective ratios. I use this flavor in virtually all of my test builds, promo's, workshops, etc. because of its stable flavor scalability across nic levels in all devices. It's that taste uniformity I most admire about Nextel. So CC's gotten a workout and examination by a great many for impressions. While mostly withholding any info on the wick I've gotten mixed results. Otherwise overall with most other wick media the juice is almost always noted as excellent or remarkable.
My take overall is that organic cotton is the most flavor neutral, for a day or two. But it lacks the transport potential of more directional fiber orientation of wicks like KGD, Eko, Nextel, etc. It's pronounced cotton flavor identity is cumbersome. So overall I still favor Nextel as the standout producer in all categories, particularly its neutral longevity. There's no panacea any more for this than the perfect cookware for a culinary solution. I just believe that knowing the performance characteristics of each of these wicking tools helps us better understand how to get to the flavor objectives we seek to attain.
Thanks so much for sharing brook.
Good luck.
Hi Brook, and thanks again for being that generous member.
You know early on almost a year ago I almost gave up on Nextel. Yep, true. You see Nextel's inter fiber spaces are conspicuously narrow. Consequently I believe large pigments tend to accumulate quite rapidly in XC wicks. Back then knowing that new vapers are still acclimating at lower power as in the green zone such was not going to bring out the best in this wick. In fact, it would tend to prematurely saturate the wicks with pigment. Particularly with conventional coils and their often unpredictable heating results.
I gave Nextel the benefit of a doubt for it's potential and utility despite the prevalent misunderstandings about its safety. Kept on refining ways to improve performance with break-in, coil fit and preventive maintenance as I described to cigatron. For the moment CelluCotton has joined my repertoire of wicking tools and for similar reasons as I try to better understand its suitabilities.
I've managed to tweak out some excellent vapor response from CC but regrettably not the hopeful expectations of both that and flavor. Again for some of the very same reasons. Both Nextel and CC have great potential to deliver great flavor but have very specific criteria for doing so. CC's utility comes in its ease of use and a great many will not be very cognizant of its flavor nuances. For some it will be the ideal as it genuinely articulates the best in their juice preferences for reasons I've commented on elsewhere. But it is not uniform in its production of flavor in the way that Nextel is up to its saturation limits. In both the limitation is based on power. And power upwards of 8W results in both more flavor production and a quicker saturation of trapped pigments in both. The utility advantage of Nextel is that it can undergo a quick rinse right on the atomizer and it's back to the job. For CC in that it's cheap and a simple rewick. Both have their own economy.
I for my part experience taste deficiencies with CC from the jump. One and the most significant is the attenuation of certain flavors. But it will likely take me some time, as it did with Nextel, to determine what type of flavor pigments are involved. For some juices it may be the blessing that makes them not only palateable but outstanding. For others, not so much. Secondly, for me it produces a much dryer hotter vape even with very cool tension wound twisted pair. The result is not so much the flavor as the texture of the vapor I sense as a chalkiness in the taste context. Much like organic cotton as it starts to dry. Just as the yellow of a boiled egg has a different texture as a scrambled egg and consequently tastes differently.
As an example Brook, in my absolute fav multi APV juice, a bourbon facsimile, the natural Madagascar vanilla and bourbon spice constituents are grossly sublimated while the excellent organic VG and its sweetness are pushed to the front. It's still a great vape. The flavors are there but unquestionably altered in their apparent respective ratios. I use this flavor in virtually all of my test builds, promo's, workshops, etc. because of its stable flavor scalability across nic levels in all devices. It's that taste uniformity I most admire about Nextel. So CC's gotten a workout and examination by a great many for impressions. While mostly withholding any info on the wick I've gotten mixed results. Otherwise overall with most other wick media the juice is almost always noted as excellent or remarkable.
My take overall is that organic cotton is the most flavor neutral, for a day or two. But it lacks the transport potential of more directional fiber orientation of wicks like KGD, Eko, Nextel, etc. It's pronounced cotton flavor identity is cumbersome. So overall I still favor Nextel as the standout producer in all categories, particularly its neutral longevity. There's no panacea any more for this than the perfect cookware for a culinary solution. I just believe that knowing the performance characteristics of each of these wicking tools helps us better understand how to get to the flavor objectives we seek to attain.
Thanks so much for sharing brook.
Good luck.
Thanks Mac, for your review. I truly value it. While my experiences with it have been nothing short of exceptional, I know you gave it the time and it simply want at the top of your list for your juices. Very odd that the flavor didn't pop for you. This is one of the first reports of a loss or muting of certain flavors that I've heard.
Thank you again for your experimenting! As always, love getting your two cents.
Thanks and good luck!
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
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