Provari on an Oscope vs Vamo

[CountSmackula]

... you act like an curmudgeon.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[zapped]

Except of course that I hear no difference between my Aga-t on a Vamo or legacy.

There was discussion earlier that it may depend on what atomizer you are using.

WE arent talking about the difference between a Vamo and a Legacy were talking about the difference between a Vamo and Provari.You incorrectly assumed that comparing a Vamo and Legacy would be the same and went off on your own tangent. Nothing scientific about that at all.

Who has faulty logic now?

The difference between a Vamo and a Provari is simple.One has a linear filter and the other doesnt.Both common sense and the laws of Economics state that if the Vamo were as good as you assume the price would be going UP not DOWN.

As it is now its getting very close in price to an EGO Twist or Vision Spinner.

 

[junkman]

Yawn.


.

 

[Day]

Thread really shouldn't be about Vamo vs. Provari. Names of the models do nothing but make people get defensive over their own PV, and start a pissing match about cost and other variables that have no real relevance to what's being discussed.

The real question is simple: What is the minimum cycles per second to heat a kanthal coil in PG/VG to a constant temperature without any fluctuation?

That's really it, that's all we need to know, would settle the whole discussion. Has nothing to do with the cost of one or the other or what brand/model PV you have.

 

[Moonwalker]

Was discussed a bit on another thread. We know the Vamo fires at 37hz and the Provari at 800hz. Here is something I found that Ill bet not many know. Every Vamo pulse is at 6v. Each time it fires (37 times a second) this is what it does. How it achieves different voltages is how long it stays on vs how long its off. You will see in the following pictures (oscope set to 2v per square) that at 3v, the vamo fires 6v 50% of the time, at 4.5v it fires 7v 75% of the time, and at 6v it fires about 95-97% of the time. The provari fires so often that at slower time stamps, it looks like a solid line. When it fires @ 3v, its 3v. When 4.5 its 4.5 so forth and so on. The line actually goes up and down the scale with voltage instead of making an average out of 6 and 0v. I did manage to get a good look at the ProV's pulses with a little adjusting. I had it down to .2V per square making the voltage varriation only in the neighborhood of .05v. And it does this 800 times a second.

Here is the Vamo firing at 3v. 3 squares up from center is 6v and center line is 0v. Notice that is 50% on and 50% off.
View attachment 178263
Here is a firing at 4.5v Notice the time up is about 75% now.
View attachment 178264
Here is the Vamo at 6. It hardly has any down time at all.
View attachment 178265
Now the ProV at 3v.
View attachment 178266
and at 6v.
View attachment 178267

I would like to see this for eVic. Some people want to make me believe that it works great, even almost same as Provari... and I'm sure that it can not compare even with Vamo.

 

[tnt56]

I have a couple of mechanicals with the kick installed, it is just mediocre for me honestly, I think the voltage regulator is fairly inefficient in it. They get pretty miserable battery life for an 18500 in my opinion. They are really consistant though while the battery lasts, the vape is pretty much the same all the way down to the last puff. The reason Pulse Width Modulation is used is because PWM, or switching regulators, have the ability to step up voltage over the DC signal provided. They are also very efficient, as Mean or RMS voltage is controlled by the duty cycle. No current is wasted as no power is expended during the off phase of the square wave. Linear regulation, which is what you were referring to (what would give you a "flat" regulated signal) is horribly inefficient and can only reduce input voltage. An op amp or transistor is required to amplify voltage, then it is regulated by dumping excess current by varying resistance. The current is converted to heat. This creates multiple problems obviously as the increased heat has to be accommodated, your mod would be a giant heat sink. Almost all modern voltage regulation is done through PWM. Linear regulation is pretty much only done in circuits that are subject to extreme RF interference these days.

That helps explain some things. I'll agree with the short battery life with a kick. I actually had 2 AW ICR Protected batteries go out from using them with the kick. I admit it was my fault but those protected 18650's were bought before I got my aw IMR batteries in. I knew better than to use the ICR batteries but they were all I had at the time. Since I got the imr's I've had no more trouble. But I do notice the shorter life as you mentioned.

 

[Fury83]

Fury, half the time I like you, the other half you act like an curmudgeon.

Lol...half the time you like me? That makes you one of my biggest fans probably. I'm too young to be a curmudgeon, I prefer "outspoken hypocrite" anyway.

 

[Fury83]

I would like to see this for eVic. Some people want to make me believe that it works great, even almost same as Provari... and I'm sure that it can not compare even with Vamo.

Frequency on an Evic is 104.9KHz, so no rattlesnake and it should look different on a scope. Output wise, it's similar to a provari in that it doesn't have a noticeable pulse to it.

Not as accurate as a provari, and neither is a vamo but I still use mine unlike my sigelei zmax (selling)/Vamo (sold).

 

[MorpheusPA]

The real question is simple: What is the minimum cycles per second to heat a kanthal coil in PG/VG to a constant temperature without any fluctuation?

Somebody would have to do a direct measurement. However...

With any resistor, a pulse of 100 ms or less (the VAMO being 27 ms) means that you must not exceed maximum voltage because the heat doesn't have time to dissipate well enough to avoid failure. This includes cooled resistors as the heat doesn't have time to conduct to the surrounding coolant.

So for even the best resistors, a tenth of a second is considered a short period of time.

Is that a good guide? I don't know, but suspect it is.

We also have the same perception effects coming into play as with audiophiles--and anything else. Unless you can do a blind test, you'd be unable to determine if there's actually a flavor difference or if the person simply wants to believe that one mod or the other is better.

 

[Kemosabe]

Its not even the speed at which it cycles that makes the most difference, its the varriation in voltage per pulse. In the Vamo, there is a 6V pulse happening from peak to peak, in the ProV the pulse is .05v peak to peak. I did this research because Im blown away by how good the ProV is compared to the Vamo. Everyone says "the battery doesnt matter, they both heat the coil and that is all" This is simply not true. Someone says the average is good enough.. It IS good enough to produce good vapor. Vapor production was never a problem with the Vamo especially when I got a good carto tank. But it always seemed harsh. If you turn the voltage too high on any device, it does get harsh. This just does it really fast. Vaping the ProV is so much smoother and now I know why. They are not equal. I imagine the mechanical mods are the smoothest vape of all. Purely flat line

i would like to talk a little about the bolded idea. im glad you posted that because i had the same theory, that the mechanical would be incredibly smooth. the one problem with mechanical would be the lack of consistant voltage/wattage. if we add a device like the Kick or the Crown, do you think that would affect that pure flat line?

 

[Kemosabe]

I am baffled by how folks can't hear the rattlesnake sound of the Vamo...

It's nothing like an audiophile claiming to hear the difference from one speaker wire to another, or folks claiming the fidelity of a record is better than a CD...

It's just in your face obvious, to me...

the rattlesnake (i call it the helicopter lol) is clearly audible when using cartos and carto tanks. it is clearly inaudible when i use RBAs. IMO, its just a matter of what your using that determines if youll hear the PWM or not. its still there with the RBAs, you just cant hear it. but you can taste it, and your TH will also be affected. i get less TH with the vamo than i do with my provari. its slight, but very noticable to a TH fanatic such as myself.

 

[GIMike]

i would like to talk a little about the bolded idea. im glad you posted that because i had the same theory, that the mechanical would be incredibly smooth. the one problem with mechanical would be the lack of consistant voltage/wattage. if we add a device like the Kick or the Crown, do you think that would affect that pure flat line?

Also, since it is purely mechanical, doesn't that mean the power would change as voltage drops, meaning it wouldn't be as consistent throughout the charge? That's one advantage to a booster circuit is that no matter what the current charge on the battery is, it tries to get the set voltage out of it?

 

[PLANofMAN]

the rattlesnake (i call it the helicopter lol) is clearly audible when using cartos and carto tanks. it is clearly inaudible when i use RBAs. IMO, its just a matter of what your using that determines if youll hear the PWM or not. its still there with the RBAs, you just cant hear it. but you can taste it, and your TH will also be affected. i get less TH with the vamo than i do with my provari. its slight, but very noticable to a TH fanatic such as myself.

Before this starts another flare-up. Some people can taste it, and some people can't. Same with the throat hit, some people don't notice a difference, and you do. I've never noticed any difference with the throat hit, but I vape more to the VG side than PG.

 

[finagle69]

Pretty intense thread.

I have a VAMO and love it. But I'll get a ProV if/when they come out with a VW version with a better (to me) menu structure.

 

[zapped]

Pretty intense thread.

I have a VAMO and love it. But I'll get a ProV if/when they come out with a VW version with a better (to me) menu structure.

Aint gonna happen. Provari has a simple menu for a reason....longevity...more moving parts you have the easier it breaks down.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Aint gonna happen. Provari has a simple menu for a reason....longevity...more moving parts you have the easier it breaks down.

You know, when I first got my ProVari, I thought I wanted more buttons and a better screen and menu. After owning it for a while now, I understand why it's set up the way it is. The menu is the simplest, least complex one out there. Everything is set up in order of priority, with the most used features at the beginning of the menu. The screen, again, is the most durable, brightest lit screen they could find. It's not pretty, but it's exactly what is needed and wanted. The button, again, is built to last. There are no other buttons to accidently press and change settings.

A gun only has one trigger.

EDIT: People have a misconception about the ProVari. Some seem to think that it's the Ferrari of the vaping world. In reality, it's the opposite. It's the Hummer of the vaping world, and not the pretty dolled up ones the rich people drive...it's the military ones that our troops drive until they break, then fix them and drive some more. The ones with patched up bullet holes and blood on the tires.

 

[denali_41]

You know, when I first got my ProVari, I thought I wanted more buttons and a better screen and menu. After owning it for a while now, I understand why it's set up the way it is. The menu is the simplest, least complex one out there. Everything is set up in order of priority, with the most used features at the beginning of the menu. The screen, again, is the most durable, brightest lit screen they could find. It's not pretty, but it's exactly what is needed and wanted. The button, again, is built to last. There are no other buttons to accidently press and change settings.

A gun only has one trigger.

EDIT: People have a misconception about the ProVari. Some seem to think that it's the Ferrari of the vaping world. In reality, it's the opposite. It's the Hummer of the vaping world, and not the pretty dolled up ones the rich people drive...it's the military ones that our troops drive until they break, then fix them and drive some more. The ones with patched up bullet holes and blood on the tires.

Thanks,that is about the most realistic perspective of the Provari i have read to date

 

[Fury83]

I think the provari is more an Acura. You got them dependable guts, nice exterior and it's a smooth daily ride. Most people can afford either new or used if they really want it.

Also, I think people who say the one button thing is hard, haven't tried it yet. It's easier to me than the Vamo controls.

 

[Fury83]

Pretty intense thread.

I have a VAMO and love it. But I'll get a ProV if/when they come out with a VW version with a better (to me) menu structure.

You'd be better off just getting a custom tube mode with a Nivel as opposed to waiting for a VW provari.

 

[cloudbringer]

Not a hater. Provari is a great device. However, just because something cycles between different voltages does not imply that the coil temp is any different that if a steady voltage is applied.

If the coil is the same temp the vapor is the same.

Now maybe one or the other gets there faster or some other factor, but 37 times a second is plenty quick to obtain a stable coil temp.

the sudden jump in voltage might not change coil temp, it might not even change the taste but its definately gonna shorten the life of your coils.