Puppy Dies After Ingesting E-Cigarette Liquid

[zoiDman]

I think the danger to children is overblown. There are extremely few deaths from nicotine, adults or children. We're talking like one or two a year. And most of those are suicides.

I'm just Guessing.

But you don't have any Children, Right?

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

I'm just Guessing.
But you don't have any Children, Right?

I don't have any kids, but I have a 12 y.o. nephew. And I've seen at least two stories about bad people who want to do bad things with children, and who tempt saiid children with PVs.

I also have a car. I've seen one story about a tire which was punctured by a discarded cartridge.

I have a house, and I've seen god-knows-how-many stories about charger fires.

Oh let's see and then there was a story the other day about a teenager who got into a fight with a bunch of other kids over a cigalike clone.

I could go on and on ...

The point is:

Every day, there are bad-people-who-want-to-do-bad-things-to-children who tempt them with all kinds of things (money, illegal substances, alcohol, etc.) But if it's a PV, we'll hear about it in the news.

Every day, there are puppies (and children) who ingest things that they shouldn't, because there are gobs of opportunities to do so in just about every household. Sadly, some of the pets do perish, and there has been exactly one (questionable) case of a child. But it only makes national news when it's e-juice.

Every day, kids get into fights with other kids over sneakers, tee shirts, iPods and other i-things, drugs, (analog) cigarettes, and everything else under the sun. But if it's a PV, well that's news.

Every day, car tires get punctured by nails, and a plethora of other sharp objects. But if it's a PV cartridge, now that's news.

Every day, fires start as a result of electrical appliances which are either misussed or poorly manufactured. But if it's a PV battery charger, then we hear about it.

And on .. and on .. and on ... ad nauseum.

 

[Ed_C]

I don't have any kids, but I have a 12 y.o. nephew. And I've seen at least two stories about bad people who want to do bad things with children, and who tempt saiid children with PVs.

I also have a car. I've seen one story about a tire which was punctured by a discarded cartridge.

I have a house, and I've seen god-knows-how-many stories about charger fires.

Oh let's see and then there was a story the other day about a teenager who got into a fight with a bunch of other kids over a cigAlike clone.

I could go on and on ...

The point is:

Every day, there are bad-people-who-want-to-do-bad-things-to-children who tempt them with all kinds of things (money, illegal substances, alcohol, etc.) But if it's a PV, we'll hear about it in the news.

Every day, there are puppies (and children) who ingest things that they shouldn't, because there are gobs of opportunities to do so in just about every household. Sadly, some of them do perish. But it only makes national news when it's e-juice.

Every day, kids get into fights with other kids over sneakers, tee shirts, iPods and other i-things, drugs, (analog) cigarettes, and everything else under the sun. But if it's a PV, well that's news.

Every day, car tires get punctured by nails, and a plethora of other sharp objects. But if it's a PV cartridge, now that's news.

Every day, fires start as a result of electrical appliances which are either misussed or poorly manufactured. But if it's a PV battery charger, then we hear about it.

And on .. and on .. and on ... ad nauseum.

I'm sorry but that's apples and oranges. All that's not the same as warning people of about potential dangers of a product. Also, the fact that bad things happen, is not a justification for not doing something, when there's something that can be done.

A story finds its way into the news when it's either about a rare occurrence, when it affects a larger than normal population or when it's something new. When cars blow up from being hit, it's news. When someone dies from accidental poisoning, it's not really news, unless it deals with a new type of product. Then it might be news.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

<snip>

Incidently I just edited my post to point out that the only case of a chld death is highly questionable.

But your point stands. If and when a puppy swallows an eGo battery, this will also be news.

And it will generate a long thread here at ECF.

 

[zoiDman]

I don't have any kids, ...

Great to Know.

And the rest of your Post was... Uh, Interesting?

But I Really wanting to know about dr g.

 

[Spazmelda]

I think the danger to children is overblown. There are extremely few deaths from nicotine, adults or children. We're talking like one or two a year. And most of those are suicides.

I'm just Guessing.

But you don't have any Children, Right?

Great to Know.

And the rest of your Post was... Uh, Interesting?

But I Really wanting to know about dr g.

I'm not dr g, but I do have two kids and I pretty much agree with what he (?) said. Elaine has posted the stats for nic poisoning death in kids and the numbers are extremely low (way way less than 1/year, iirc). There are a dew nic suicides (often involving other drugs to suppress vomiting) and some failed nic suicides. If you take a look at the annual report for calls to poison control centers and compare incidents with tobacco or nicotine to a variety of other things (pool supplies, office/craft supplies, household cleaners, etc...) it might give some perspective. https://aapcc.s3.amazonaws.com/pdfs/annual_reports/2012_NPDS_Annual_Report.pdf

That's not to say I'd let my kids or dog into my stuff though. I keep the nic locked in a freezer and my DIY stuff and liquids are in a lock box.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm not dr g, but I do have two kids and I pretty much agree with what he (?) said. Elaine has posted the stats for nic poisoning death in kids and the numbers are extremely low (way way less than 1/year, iirc). There are a dew nic suicides (often involving other drugs to suppress vomiting) and some failed nic suicides. If you take a look at the annual report for calls to poison control centers and compare incidents with tobacco or nicotine to a variety of other things (pool supplies, office/craft supplies, household cleaners, etc...) it might give some perspective. https://aapcc.s3.amazonaws.com/pdfs/annual_reports/2012_NPDS_Annual_Report.pdf

That's not to say I'd let my kids or dog into my stuff though. I keep the nic locked in a freezer and my DIY stuff and liquids are in a lock box.

Not Disputing the Numbers.

I think it was dr g's Wording that Caught my Eye.

 

[zoiDman]

... If you take a look at the annual report for calls to poison control centers and compare incidents with tobacco or nicotine to a variety of other things (pool supplies, office/craft supplies, household cleaners, etc...) it might give some perspective. https://aapcc.s3.amazonaws.com/pdfs/annual_reports/2012_NPDS_Annual_Report.pdf

That's not to say I'd let my kids or dog into my stuff though. I keep the nic locked in a freezer and my DIY stuff and liquids are in a lock box.

BTW - When an Inference is made about an Entire Population, but only a Small Percentage of the Population is used to make the Inference, have you heard of the term "Normalization"?

As a means to Estimate what the Numbers would be if the Small Percentage was Actually the Entire Population.

 

[Spazmelda]

BTW - When an Inference is made about an Entire Population, but only a Small Percentage of the Population is used to make the Inference, have you heard of the term "Normalization"?

As a means to Estimate what the Numbers would be if the Small Percentage was Actually the Entire Population.

I thought that was called extrapolation. Normalization means something different to me, but it may have a different meaning in the context you are using.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

BTW - When an Inference is made about an Entire Population, but only a Small Percentage of the Population is used to make the Inference, have you heard of the term "Normalization"?

As a means to Estimate what the Numbers would be if the Small Percentage was Actually the Entire Population.

Um, okay. Let's talk about common items in households that lack warning labels. Stairs, stoves, microwaves, kitchen knives ... I could go on and on.

Poison control center calls mean nothing. They're just calls. And well over 99% of them come from cigarettes and FDA-approved therapies. At least of the ones due to any consumer product intended to deliver nicotine.

Which means that nic. juice actually causes fewer such calls, when you figure that there are 3M vapers and 40M smokers. (I don't seen any warning labels about oral injestiion on cigarettes, BTW.)

Nicotine also causes vomiting if orally intested in excessive quantities.

And finally: we don't even have one documented case of a death. The case of the 2 y.o. in Israel is ambiguous at best.

Do we even have one documented case of injury?

If not - how do we scale up zero?

Or do we just assume that one case of a one-month old dead puppy = one case of a one-month old human? (Precautionary principle, right?)

Hmm, I wonder how many gerbils have consumed e-juice. We might have to look at those cases, too.

 

[zoiDman]

I thought that was called extrapolation. Normalization means something different to me, but it may have a different meaning in the context you are using.

The Words may be Different but I think you see where I was going with it.

 

[zoiDman]

Um, okay. Let's talk about common items in households that lack warning labels. Stairs, stoves, microwaves, kitchen knives ... I could go on and on.

Poison control center calls mean nothing. They're just calls. And well over 99% of them come from cigarettes and FDA-approved therapies. At least of the ones due to any consumer product intended to deliver nicotine.

Which means that nic. juice actually causes fewer such calls, when you figure that there are 3M vapers and 40M smokers. (I don't seen any warning labels about oral injestiion on cigarettes, BTW.)

Nicotine also causes vomiting if orally intested in excessive quantities.

And finally: we don't even have one documented case of a death. The case of the 2 y.o. in Israel is ambiguous at best.

Do we even have one documented case of injury?

If not - how do we scale up zero?

Or do we just assume that one case of a one-month old dead puppy = one case of a one-month old human? (Precautionary principle, right?)

Hmm, I wonder how many gerbils have consumed e-juice. We might have to look at those cases, too.

So What's your Point?

 

[DC2]

So What's your Point?

I would assume his point is that nicotine in real life has not proven to be particularly dangerous.
Even if it CAN be dangerous in real life, so far, it really hasn't been.

I would say that is a point that is hard to dispute.
And if that isn't his point, then I'll be happy to make it.

 

[NorthOfAtlanta]

I would assume his point is that nicotine in real life has not proven to be particularly dangerous.
Even if it CAN be dangerous in real life, so far, it really hasn't been.

I would say that is a point that is hard to dispute.
And if that isn't his point, then I'll be happy to make it.

This, at a population level nicotine has killed few.

Smoking kills, nicotine kills extremely infrequently. Almost a statistical zero.

 

[zoiDman]

I would assume his point is that nicotine in real life has not proven to be particularly dangerous.
Even if it CAN be dangerous in real life, so far, it really hasn't been.

I would say that is a point that is hard to dispute.
And if that isn't his point, then I'll be happy to make it.

I don't like the Minimization of Danger, either Real or Perceived, when it comes to Children. Or Pets.

Because I know that it will Strike a Chord with Many People who read a Thread like this and are Perhaps Not As Informed as Many of the Members are here who use e-Cigarettes.

 

[Spazmelda]

The Words may be Different but I think you see where I was going with it.

I actually didn't until I read Roger's post. Then I had a better clue the direction you were going in. Sorry! It just didn't click for me probably because as Roger pointed out, it's hard/impossible to scale a number up from zero. I do think we will probably see an increase in injuries or at least incidents involving nicotine as ecigs become more popular. That's just common sense and it does make sense to educate and have precautionary measures in place to offset some of those potential incidents.

i guess my thoughts on this issue are this... There is quite a lot of area in between minimizing a danger and blowing a danger out of proportion. I really think we have to strike a balance between the two. It doesn't really matter what we think though since the media is always going to go for the 'blowing out of proportion' side of the equation. :/

We should definitely encourage people to keep their stuff out of reach of children and pets. We should encourage use of child proof bottles by vendors. We should encourage safe battery charging. But, IMO, we need to keep a sense of perspective with regard to relative risk (i.e. thinking about risks we usually discount, because they are things we are so familiar with we just don't worry about them).

 

[zoiDman]

...

We should definitely encourage people to keep their stuff out of reach of children and pets. We should encourage use of child proof bottles by vendors. We should encourage safe battery charging. But, IMO, we need to keep a sense of perspective with regard to relative risk (i.e. thinking about risks we usually discount, because they are things we are so familiar with we just don't worry about them).

I Definitely Agree with this Paragraph.