Question about frozen nicotine.

[classwife]

Great to see you Kurt - and thank you !


Moved this to DIY e-liquid from General e-liquid Discussion

 

[rolygate]

Sorry, didn't read the whole thread, but:

- I have 5 year old 100% VG nic base in the freezer that is still A1 and has no visible signs of decay, or any taste change. It doesn't freeze solid, it becomes a hard jelly.

- I keep my freezer at -22C in case that is of any interest.

- I also keep my vodka in there, and it turns 40% vodka (80 proof) to around an 80-20 slush (mostly ice, some alcohol left as a viscous liquid). This is a useful way of distilling it by the way, if you're desperate

As far as I can work out, VG nic base at -22 is going to last a very long time.

 

[AndriaD]

Do as you wish! I'm an engeneer myself and that's what I learned at college. It's one of the dangers of freezing anything, condensation. If you want your base watered down while you thaw it, so have it.It's no use freezing, it won't extend the life more than simply keeping it in the frige, at 3C.And no, I simply keep them in the fridge year round, have done it with other things, but alcohol, no use freezing.

At 3C (37.4F), my fridge is a little too cold, and the milk would get a crust of icy slush. I keep our fridge at 39F (about 3.9C). I keep our freezer at 5F, or -15C, and my nicotine never freezes; it's just thicker than usual. For me, keeping it in the freezer is more practical; there's a bit more useful space (or space I can sacrifice to nic instead of food), and it stays darker, since the freezer isn't opened as much (and it's taped in a cardboard box anyway). In the fridge, I only keep whatever open bottle(s) I'm using out of.

Andria

 

[cags]

..............
BTW ... I had to lol at engeneer

well, to be fair, he/her is from Argentina...........

 

[Mowgli]

Here's some helpful reading about nicotine storage:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ttle-help-freezing-nic-juice.html#post2126610
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...freezing-100mg-nicotine-base.html#post8895379
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-possible-fda-restriction-2.html#post8436727
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/317892-storing-nicotine.html#post6820498

 

[Bob Chill]

When I bought my first nic stash, I read everything (especially Kurt's posts). I'm not a chemist but it's pretty easy to understand that sealing and freezing in glass does several important things. It keeps additional oxygen from joining the party, it greatly slows down the oxygen inherently in the nic base from moving around easily, and it keeps light away. My oldest bottles are 15 months. I can't tell any difference from the day I bought them. Seeing reports of 5+ years is even more encouraging. It's probably safe to guess that base bottled and stored properly in the freezer could potentially still be just fine in 10 years. Oxidation is the only enemy from what I can tell. There's nothing that can "spoil".

 

[Papillon61]

well, to be fair, he/her is from Argentina...........

That's right. I have very much appreciated this discussion for which I thank everyone for all the input - but really spelling is not relevant here, especially when this is an international site where not everyone is a native English speaker. I myself am not a native English speaker.

Vaping is not prohibited in Malta (although you can'd do it in public enclosed spaces) but the problem is that very soon nicotine in large quantities will be unavailable and illegal to import. So really it's not a question of hopping over to the UK or any other EU country to get some nic base. The EU Tobacco Products Directive (which includes e-cigs) will be applicable in all EU states by 20 May 2016. Electronic cigarettes or refill containers manufactured or released for free circulation before 20 November 2016 will only be allowed till 20 May 2017 - after that date kaput, end of story. The whole vaping scene will totally change and will probably become as expensive as smoking tobacco. That is the reason I am trying to stock up and researching ways of doing it.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Susaz]

No, it's not exactly the same. The colder the temp, whether it actually freezes or not, the better it will be preserved. Glycerine doesn't crystalize when frozen, but it does something else; it's considered an amorphus solid. The freezing point is mostly irrelevant to this subject, anyway, since the reason for lowing the temperature is to prevent degredation caused by OUTSIDE influences. Lowering temperature is one way to slow the rate of reaction. Someone mentioned the Arrhenius equation. That's what is relevant to this discussion. It's also at play in the "steeping" process.

<--- majored in chemistry, but it doesn't take a chemist to understand this

When cold, VG precipitates and esthers sink into the bottom of the container. Freezing temps might be good for nic but not for VG. And not all bases (or liquids) are created equal. Again, even when a container is full, as it thaws, it will condense. Physics, not chemistry entirely.

BTW, have you ever frozen milk? It's a little more graphic to what happens when you freeze eliquid.

 

[Strangebrew]

engineer... need a few of them to set a freezer

 

[dannyv45]

I just broke out a 120ml amber glass bottle of 100mg VG NIC that I've stored in the freezer 2.5 years ago. It's still as fresh as the day I bought it.....Nuff said.

 

[Strangebrew]

A co-worker once remarked, "I don't by up a bunch of beef. Let the store hold it for you."
Happy joyful Easter everyone!

 

[dannyv45]

But if the beef gets outlawed a freezer comes in handy

 

[Papillon61]

A co-worker once remarked, "I don't by up a bunch of beef. Let the store hold it for you."
Happy joyful Easter everyone!

I wouldn't buy a bunch of beef either - except if a whole continent is going vegan!
A joyful Easter to you too... mine is almost over.

 

[Rossum]

When cold, VG precipitates and esthers sink into the bottom of the container. Freezing temps might be good for nic but not for VG. And not all bases (or liquids) are created equal. Again, even when a container is full, as it thaws, it will condense. Physics, not chemistry entirely.

BTW, have you ever frozen milk? It's a little more graphic to what happens when you freeze eliquid.

I think part of the problem here is that you're conflating "e-liquid" and "nic base". Nic base should have nothing in it except VG or PG and nicotine. VG base will sometimes have some water in it as well to thin it, but I'd consider this undesirable for long term storage. But there are no esters in nic base to sink to the bottom. Now finished e-liquids, that's different. They will have flavorings that include esters. No one has advocated freezing finished e-liquids, only nicotine base, to be used for making finished e-liquids later.

 

[Kurt]

When cold, VG precipitates and esthers sink into the bottom of the container. Freezing temps might be good for nic but not for VG. And not all bases (or liquids) are created equal. Again, even when a container is full, as it thaws, it will condense. Physics, not chemistry entirely.

BTW, have you ever frozen milk? It's a little more graphic to what happens when you freeze eliquid.

If you are talking about crude VG as a byproduct of biodiesel production from plant oils, then I can follow what you are saying about precipitation. That liquid is a mixture of mostly VG and unhydrolyzed di- and tri-glycerides, and would separate when frozen. It must be distilled for consumption grades. VG that is used medicinally (USP) or for food (food grade) is too pure to have significant glyceride esters. I have never seen any precipitation in my nic-liquids from freezer temps, nor have I seen any reports in the 5 years I have been on ECF. If esters are precipitating from your e-liquids in the freezer, I would get a better source of VG-nic! It may be it is not very pure VG.

"Again, even when a container is full, as it thaws, it will condense."

As a chemist, the term "condense" does not mean "contract" (volume decreases), it means gas to liquid transition. I assume you mean contract here. But VG expands with heat, not cold, at least when it is the majority of solvent being used. It is the opposite of water, which expands when it freezes. On the other hand, I may have misunderstood what you are trying to say.

 

[Kurt]

I think part of the problem here is that you're conflating "e-liquid" and "nic base". Nic base should have nothing in it except VG or PG and nicotine. VG base will sometimes have some water in it as well to thin it, but I'd consider this undesirable for long term storage. But there are no esters in nic base to sink to the bottom. Now finished e-liquids, that's different. They will have flavorings that include esters. No one has advocated freezing finished e-liquids, only nicotine base, to be used for making finished e-liquids later.

Yes, perhaps what was being referred to is finished ready-to-vape e-liquids. All sorts of things can happen then, including precipitation, in the freezer.

 

[Hannypoo]

When cold, VG precipitates and esthers sink into the bottom of the container. Freezing temps might be good for nic but not for VG. And not all bases (or liquids) are created equal. Again, even when a container is full, as it thaws, it will condense. Physics, not chemistry entirely.

BTW, have you ever frozen milk? It's a little more graphic to what happens when you freeze eliquid.

I get what you're saying. You're definitely no dummy. I don't think this would apply to a standard nic base, though. There wouldn't be any esters, unless flavor had been added. (Right?) The only thing freezing does to VG is turn it into a very thick wad of goop (amorphous solid) until unfrozen. I don't think condensation would be a problem, as long as the cap is firmly intact while thawing. Even if condensation did form... meh. Not a big deal, in my humble opinion. This is great information for those thinking about freezing the flavored juices they've purchased, though. I'm glad we're discussing it, because I've been thinking about doing just that. Even if there is separation, I don't think it would be anything that a long, vigorous shake of the thawed bottle couldn't fix. I may be wrong, though. It sure works to speed up the "steeping" process when I'm in a hurry to try a new e-juice. My poor wrists, though... I need to invest in a miniature paint mixing machine to shake the bottles for me. Haha!

 

[Hannypoo]

The EU Tobacco Products Directive (which includes e-cigs) will be applicable in all EU states by 20 May 2016. Electronic cigarettes or refill containers manufactured or released for free circulation before 20 November 2016 will only be allowed till 20 May 2017 - after that date kaput, end of story. The whole vaping scene will totally change and will probably become as expensive as smoking tobacco. That is the reason I am trying to stock up and researching ways of doing it.

Well, that's good to know. I was planning to import some bulk, wholesale e-cig supplies from a German company. What a bummer... I guess I'd better buy as much as I can before things get ridiculous over there. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

well, to be fair, he/her is from Argentina...........

What kind of engineer? Electrical, Mechanical, chemical, etc?

 

[Robert Cromwell]

But if the beef gets outlawed a freezer comes in handy

Or when one slaughters a beef. A freezer is grand. Or for veggies from the garden. Or for the hog killin in the fall, etc.