Rayon wick, better flow, flavor, saturation and Nic Hit!

[JeremyR]

Some great points here on a coil discussion. I will quote some points I want to reflect on... One of the issues that Mac is looking for I believe is that the touching coil retains heat longer because it's a mass of material. After you vape the coil remains hot for longer and the juice is just baking onto it starting right in the middle. A heat sink is much less efficient as a mass of metal compared to the standard heat sink which has spaces between the plate like metal. Coil cools faster after power is off causing less after burn on the coil. With tension what is the efficiency improvement, 5%, not a huge thing; were not building a rocket ship.

Rayon doubled the life I got on touching coils, spaced coils double the life again! With no noticeable negative effects. Every atty and build has a sweet spot.

Most of the vaporization is happening in the hot center, so gunk accumulates quicker there. When gunked, the center of the coil isn't cooled as much by juice and air, so that spot becomes even hotter exasperating the problem.

Happens on middle 3or 4 coils rather than all 8-9 coils. More efficient?

The hotter center is vaporizing it at an accelerated rate therefore blocking the through flow of liquid.

The farthest spot from the feeding wick, the middle, heats the most. Coil heats more Unevenly. Is this uneven heating a benefit?

And by the way all kanthal heat up from the middle out. Try it with a long straight wire. It will start at the middle. But the tmc does it with a bigger variance time between center and edges. The problem is how long the center stays hot with regards to the edges.

Yes it does but the time difference/ delay is increased with a touching coil. And of course the center stays hotter longer after you vape. It's more insulated by the wires.

I know that we're all after surface area, but I think past a certain point , or percentage of your wicks, the bell curve drops off...

I agree, every wire and build has a sweet spot. And many many things in vaping have a sweet spot.

Just reiterating what Rossum said. All kinds of different variances. I think we just need to agree to disagree and knock this isht off. You can argue over this till the cows come home, but there really isn't one "universal" thing that's gonna work well for everybody every time.

Whatever works for you and me is just fine. We want longevity and don't care if its 5% less efficient when we double the life span of our builds.

So... I'm not even sure what I'm comparing here, but the goal is having the cleanest flavor possible for the longest time possible.

And this has sort of become one of the major points of this thread. Longevity and less vape work means more free time and more vaping. Some people are bored and want to work on their gear all the time. Now a days I pull wicks to try something different - rarely out of necessity. - this is what's important to me today.

To me a touching coil is not adding a benefit in my vaping. *Micro size is fine it has its benefits, depending on wire size, build, and atty. the smaller the more wick coverage. I've been settled in on a 5/64 on the flashi and 1/16 on the wife's evod.

 

[awsum140]

Can someone explain to me how the mass of a coil, which is a fixed parameter based on length and diameter of the wire, increases if the wraps are touching? The same is true of the surface area. That seems to defy the simple laws of physics in my addled brain.

 

[JeremyR]

It's because the wraps become one when their touching. The wraps are insulating each other. A radiator is not a solid piece of metal. A piece of aluminum in a block will be hot far longer than the same mass of aluminum formed as a proper heat sink.

Look familiar



Air cooled motor.



If the motor of the same mass didn't have the fins, or they were stacked on top of each other, it would overheat.

 

[PaulBHC]

The fins are to increase surface area for heat dissipation. Like crushed ice vs a block.

 

[JeremyR]

In my experience the spaced coil does the same thing. Which I prefer and increases the longevity of the coil before gunking occurs.

 

[Heavyrocker]

Looks like ill have to try the ''spaced'' coil,seems like the new thing,will report back later.

 

[awsum140]

But the argument keeps being made that mass increases IF the wraps of the coil touch. Density of material does increase, but the mass does not change. The same is true of a finned versus block structure, mass is the same, density of that mass is changed, not the actual mass.

 

[juggalofisher88]

 

[HolmanGT]

But the argument keeps being made that mass increases IF the wraps of the coil touch. Density of material does increase, but the mass does not change. The same is true of a finned versus block structure, mass is the same, density of that mass is changed, not the actual mass.

awsum,

Actually the mass nor the density changes with the finned vs solid block only the surface area changes. Other than that I agree with you.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac these users are coming to the same conclusion I did months back in the protank thread, evenly spaced coils provide a better vape in many instances.

The same thing I said back then still applies, the majority of vaporization is occurring in the center while the outer edges of the coil remain cooler on a TMC. Certainly TMC's produce more vapor and are more efficient, but at the same time this centrally focused heat appears to cause a wick to foul more quickly, I'm uncertain why this is currently.

Let's speculate.

A TMC heats up from the center outward. This is effectively pulling more juice into wicks center so wicking isn't the problem since this behavior is exactly what you want to happen. Say we take one foot of hose and pressurize it with liquid from both sides (liquid coming from both ends at equal pressure) then drilling a 0.5mm (perfectly round) hole at 3 inches, 6 inches, and 9 inches. Will the 6 inch hole spray more liquid out than the hole at 3 and 9 inches?

I ask because it seems relevant to the way the center of a wick receives liquid compared to the outside, the center is receiving liquid from both ends of the wick at an accelerated rate compared to the right and left sides since they are not receiving each others liquid. The hotter center is vaporizing it at an accelerated rate therefore blocking the through flow of liquid.

I don't feel like going into the ESMC (evenly spaced micro coil) proposed and speculative wicking dynamics since I'm mobile and typing all it entails is too much of a pain on this soft keyboard. Anyone else want to speculate further please do, this is strictly about wicking and fouling not which coil is more efficient at vaporization.

I'm aware of that five, re your opening remark, I have as well. But my test was of an ESMC as you may realize.

So I'm not too sure about this hypothesis if center-heating is seen as the nexus of gunking (it is, vape happens there) but that micro's are the culprit as this behavior is particularly associated with them. And it's especially true of t.m.c.'s as the are the optimization of close contact. And both for the same reason, symmetry.

So it would seem that the theory being proposed here, what it dilutes to, is that the only good vape that may happen is when a wind is purposely made as irregularly as possible and symmetry disregarded.

I reject that. And I challenge those who make the claim to show the rest of us how it does it.

Am I saying we shouldn't. Hell no. I build all kinds of stuff. Encourage others to try. That is not my purpose here.

As you'll note from the pic and I'm sure there are loads spread over ECF demonstrating that coils made with proper symmetry will show a similar distribution of energy. The momentary center-firing is characteristic of the initial shorting across turns with symmetry which equalizes as electron flow normalizes and the element cools overall into uniformity. So there is no differentiation. Electrons always behave the same way in similar circuits. The exception is asymmetry and the infinite responses to those equally diverse variations. Things get predictable the closer we get to a standard. That is the reality in physics.

And that's my question, just what exactly are we chasing? Can it be duplicated. Or is it an exercise?

For me a spaced wind makes sense if you build it with some consistency. And I've noted in an earlier post above just why this is so difficult if not impractical. If there's variation, so will the result vary. So I don't think it can be claimed at all that an experience is repeatable with a standard wind. Approximated perhaps and that does have some value (some of us are that good freehand). So I don't reject spaced winds. But to use that as a criteria of comparison or rejection of other methods of building or wind technologies is quite a stretch and disingenuous if made seriously. I happen to think that manual jigs offer a huge advantage to many new vapers. Are we to discourage them if that's what works for them?

Why single out microcoils as the culprit for a bad vape?

That's to say f1ve if we nowhere hear that a micro is the solution for a given juice or class with this or that wick. That is impossible. It suggests preference and favoritism, not factual observation. And that is not a practical discussion of utility.

Same thing applies to cellucotton. There as many or more on ECF who have posted on CCR's exceptions in performance. I have and the verifiable probable reasons for it. So I'm speaking strictly to the issue of universality and in that sense utility.

Do I endorse its use. Actually, I have. I believe it's a legitimate option. Can I prefer it? I would ask you f1ve, in what specific application? Best for custard? Are it's results that genuinely predictable for most of us?

I joined Jeremy's thread briefly here to interject this observation because I think the microcoil is essential to many smokers being able to easily quit and join our community. That's the purpose for my participation here at all. I'd like to see they get the chance to succeed and experience CCR. I hope I have the understanding and support to help get them there. There's is nothing antithetic to vaping but ignorance.

Thanks.

Good luck.

 

[JeremyR]

But the argument keeps being made that mass increases IF the wraps of the coil touch. Density of material does increase, but the mass does not change. The same is true of a finned versus block structure, mass is the same, density of that mass is changed, not the actual mass.

I was using the term loosely. You weren't reading it the way I was thinking it I guess... Specific mass doesn't change but I was using the term to mean come together as a single piece. Like a mass of garbage. As opposed to bags spread across the country side. Look at the definition if mass it has a long list if different meanings. Depending on use.

And yes who cares. Since a long post was made here saying we were wrong for using a spaced coil a debate had to be started. But it's about over. Use what ever makes you happy. If you want your coils to resist gunking longer try a spaced coil.

@ mactech

Thinking only a tmc will produce a good vape is obviously not true either. It all depends on ones skill and desired result. All I said was a touching coil will gunk much faster. That's not what I'm after. And yes it does cause it to happen faster. Well, I think I understand your just trying to help.

 

[awsum140]

I was being a little picky, I guess, regarding the terminology. After all it was getting down to fluid dynamics as applied to a liquid transforming to a vapor under excitation caused by heating. (with my best tongue in cheek)

I was going to comment that spaced, tight, micro, large diameter, medium diameter, small diameter, cotton, silica (perish the thought), Ekowool, ramie, hemp, rayon, alpaca fur or whatever combination of the above works for each of us in a specific application is what the best solution is. The whole thing can be analyzed down to the molecular level and super efficiency can be the goal, or simply a nice satisfying, easy to duplicate time after time vape can also be a very worthy goal (and what I strive for).

 

[PaulBHC]

If I step on a dog turd the mass stays the same but the surface area changes. I think...

 

[HolmanGT]

If I step on a dog turd the mass stays the same but the surface area changes. I think...

I agree Paul, but I ain't going to test your hypnosis (at least not intentionally).

PS - I use spaced coils because I think they work better but I have no argument other than my subjective personal experience.

 

[Heavyrocker]

Rayon wicks,dual micro coil,(not spaced) at .7 ohms,Trident /Paps Lux V2 vaping peanut butter from TFA...heaven.

 

[Heavyrocker]

I think this spaced coil over the tight micro coil is gettn outta hand and a tad ridiculous.

 

[HolmanGT]

I think this spaced coil over the tight micro coil is gettn outta hand and a tad ridiculous.

I agree with you Rocker.

But here is a thought; all the factory coils I have taken apart i.e. Kanger have the coils spaced. Might make a person consider why they do it. It sure would be easier for them to wind a bunch of tight coils and slide them onto a wicks.

So I ask why do the professionals space their coils.

 

[tchavei]

Hi guys

This is my first post on this thread. I changed to rayon almost a month ago because I wanted to try it out and a dear friend sent me like 10ft of it. I didn't think much of it in the beginning because it was similar to my Ekowool builds but with time I learned to wick it better and I confess rayon is my favorite right now.

Currently I'm trying to find Sally boxes on sale in Europe so I have a life time supply of rayon but I'm in no hurry (10ft last a long time).

I chimed in because of this full contact vs spaced coil thing.

I could write a lengthy post about why I think that sometimes one design is better than the other and vice versa but the truth is that this discussion started because of coil gunking...

So did anyone find out why some coils gunk up faster than others?

I mean... I rewick maybe once a week and recoil only for fun and my coils are never loaded with gunk. I only vape at 10-13w but that can't be it. I also only vape clear liquids like ice menthol.

Anyway I don't know what it is but my coils don't gunk. Well, maybe the twisted 32 awg do a little... But it's not gunk... They just turn black in a week or so but I can't see crud on them.

Are you guys sure it's because of micro coils or spaced ones?

I use full contact coils only for convenience but I can't replicate the gunking I've seen here.


Regards
Tony

Sent from my GT-I9195 through Tapatalk

 

[Heavyrocker]

I agree with you Rocker.

But here is a thought; all the factory coils I have taken apart i.e. Kanger have the coils spaced. Might make a person consider why they do it. It sure would be easier for them to wind a bunch of tight coils and slide them onto a wicks.

So I ask why do the professionals space their coils.

Factories just wrap the wire around silca as fast as possible.

 

[tchavei]

Free hand coils work better with spaced wraps... Easier to do and always perfect contact between wick and coil. Micros are a pain to get well wicked with silica.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my GT-I9195 through Tapatalk