If you can not see the difference, then nothing I say will explain it too you.
Right of entitlement?
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If you can not see the difference, then nothing I say will explain it too you.
You haven't been around long enough to know how close it was to being banned in 2009. And they are not done trying to have it banned. And yes you are in the minortiy, at least on ECF. And you are either not well informed (something tells me you are not a member or supporter of CASAA) or don't care about the restrictions that would leave you with the option of using PV's like Blu with sealed carts only in 2mg & 4mg strengths.
So if that works for you, then you are lucky. For most of us, we would rather get behind CASAA and fight to keep vaping as it currently exists.
No I haven't been around that long, but this isn't 4 years ago and I do keep up on financial dealings (hence the Business Insider article). Big tobacco is realizing that sentiment of analog smoking is continually on the decline (at least in the US) and money is to be made here. They don't care for health benefits or anything else that vaping represents. They are a business that is looking to make money and have a very powerful lobbying presence in Washington.
Not in quantities that are taken up into peoples' blood. Studies show that second-hand smoke IS taken up into their blood. Nicotine in the concentrations we use are roughly equivalent to caffeine, which is why I included steaming coffee in my examples. OK to ban indoor vaping as soon as we ban indoor hot coffee that isn't decaf. Iced coffee should be OK. But in that case, so should zero-nic ejuice.
"XXXX is released" is not enough information in a vacuum. Restaurants are not a vacuum. Neither are workplaces (excepting spacewalks to repair the International Space Station.)
I'm not into shoving it down peoples' throats but neither am I into letting myself get banned from the windy beaches where smoking is banned because the cigarette butts are bad for the environment. And I have found that many people do NOT regard stealth vaping as shoving something down their throats, they view it as an opportunity to be pleasantly surprised.
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Wow, this one spiraled out of control in next to no time lol I was prepping a post for it while it was a single page and now it's over a dozen pages long!
Seems unfortunately a lot of people, the wrong people are seeing Nancy's statement as an attack on them (wrong as in it offending the wrong people) when it isn't and that she's claiming that we need the same degree of insanity on this as other products when she didn't but hey, it got you all talking so there's that lol
Fact remains, there are some people, not saying anyone in this chat, not naming anyone specific on ecf, who vape that are obnoxious douche bags. The fact that we all vape does not make us all the same kinds of people anymore than being classified as human makes us all the same kinds of human being and while that may sound patronising, it is a fact. If you can say you haven't come across a fellow vaper who you wouldn't pee on if they were on fire then you may as well claim that you've never met a fellow human being who wasn't in your estimation, worth the sweat of a dead dog's testicles either. Trying to say either really would make you a comatose pacifist lol
As to the science, we know a lot but we still don't know everything and we live in a heavily polluted world wherein people can be sensitive to all kinds of things and regardless of said sensitivities, someone vaping honey beez in a crowded restaurant right now without permission to do so wouldn't be the best thing for our public image if they were asked not to and refused cause they chose to behave like a petulant teenager. Now again, not making accusations, merely presenting a hypothetical scenario, actually a semi tame one really. In the last two years, we've seen two cases of ecig users refusing to cease using their ecigs on air planes when asked not to, these stories made the press and did not help our cause in the public eye whatsoever. It is this kind of behaviour I believe Nancy was referring to. At this point in time for example, we do not congregate en mass without permission in establishments on a whim with a vapers meet. We arrange with the establishment beforehand. Not to say we may not need to organise some public disobedience in the future, things may very well get that bad in the not too distant future when it comes to regulation, I hope not cause at this point in time, the general public does not know all the things that we do when it comes to nicotine, its therapeutic qualities for some conditions, how just damn nice it is for those who enjoy it and how much like caffeine as a stimulant it is. Getting the public perception to this point is going to take time, very likely years but recent events like the FDA opening up the recommended usage time of NRT is a massive hurdle removed and step in the right direction (not to be read as being in favor of the FDA, they can kiss my chuddies, they are a disgrace and need an overhaul or to be replaced) in order that this can be achieved.
As to regulation and taxation. Sorry but anyone who thinks they aren't happening is a self delusional muppet imo and is wasting their time protesting against it ever being rather than accepting that and fighting for it to not be either a sin tax and or for it to be anywhere near the level currently being levied on combustable tobacco. While in a perfect world, governments would conduct themselves with more common sense and spend money more wisely, the fact remains, they do not. As such, we cannot expect ecigs to replace tobacco, which I truly believe they can do both culturally and factually when it comes to market share, without them also replacing it as a tax revenue, not alone but partially along with other THR products. Now, if you accept that as a concept, how would this be achieved? You start the tax off low, way below the rate of tobacco currently, something that is reasonable and that reflects the current market share it has of the market compared to tobacco and other THR produce. Now as the years go by and the tax on this rises with inflation, again, reasonably, not dramatically, and the taxes on tobacco do too, the market share in sales of one to the other products, such as ecigs, shifts, the percentage of what governments take in tax remains the same but is spread out across all the products with combustable tobacco always remaining that which is taxed most heavily. Would I prefer no tax other than sales and for this to be like coffee? Sure but not gonna happen, not for a LONG time, more in this world needs to change for that to be achievable in many of our lifetimes lol
Any regulation that any government comes up with is not gonna stop me, anyone I know or the majority of the users on ecf from vaping the way we do right now because we are not vaping the way the majority of ecig users do, we are a minority, we are self reliant, we know how to make the things we use if need be and in many cases, do anyway. We could have been vaping 30 years ago had we known of the concept of this and know what we do now, the same ingredients were available then as they are now, the only real exception to that as far as the components go is battery technology. We have come as far as we have done in such a short space of time and ain't stopping any time soon due to the ingenuity of the members of our community which include our best vendors so even in the face of regulation effecting how we can buy stuff, I would fully expect our vendors to get creative as they always have done as I would each of us in how we vape and help one another, again as we always have done in the face of adversity or pursuit of an idea of how to do something or simply cause someone was in need and the giving spirit of Vapers comes shining through to save the day!
I cannot state this enough or more strongly, WE ARE NOT THE MAJORITY! Now, since I've yelled that, I shall present a how we are not the majority. Take a company like Njoy or Joyetech, their customer bases alone, individually in the USA, are very likely larger than the entire world population of mod/apv users. That's right, we are very likely less than 5% of the total population of ecig users on this planet. That is the population numbers we fight with, against incredible odds and money, every day and we often win, that is absolutely amazing and inspiring beyond words to me. Given everything I've said, whether you agree or not, we fight not specifically for ourselves, we fight for the rights of that majority, the uninformed, those who use disposables, 510/808d stick batteries and know of nothing larger than an eGo, we fight for the millions of smokers who have yet to try this solution that could very possibly save their lives but for the fact that they haven't tried it and it is not as easily available to them at the current time wherever they may reside and lastly, cause of the stigma that may exist about this product due to the crap talked by some of the anti tobacco/smoking zealots in this world who have no joy in their lives whatsoever.
Do I want to see any regulation not hinder what I can buy currently, not effect any vendors who I buy from and how they operate their businesses? Of course but I have faith that should it do so due to how that majority are regulated since as market share, they are the largest, and who is being looked at by government, I will survive cause the individual components of what I use to vape will and have always been, legal and again, the ingenuity of our community is such that it will continue, even if a little different. I fight but I do not stress over myself, I stress for that majority who if their lives are made more difficult, will return to combustable tobacco due to not knowing how to vape any other way than they may do now and said knowledge for some could literally be as simple as that you can refill a cartomizer. Make no mistake about it, there are people who vape who are not aware that they can refill, there are people who exist on disposable ecigs, tons of people that dual use, all of which changes nothing with regard to them being fellow vapers I care about and want their product as much if not more than mine, to always be available and to not be taxed/regulated to death.
Public perception of ecigs, be they teeny or massive, how we represent ourselves, is important and while I wish it were not the case when it comes to some people who do things I disagree with, it is a sad fact that we live in a world of sensationalism and propagation of fear when it comes to journalism and any and all opportunities to paint anything with a brush in a bad way to gain viewers, website hits and so on, are employed, whether it be ecigs, breakfast cereal or someone wearing yoga pants in the mall with granny panties underneath, we live in a world where anything is up for grabs. No one is saying don't be free, no one is saying most ecig users do not operate with common courtesy but some people are douche bags in how they behave and to be honest, fact that they vape has nothing to do with them behaving that way but it would be nice if they didn't do that while holding an ecig in their hand. Douchebaggery as behaviour, is not reserved only for those who do not vape lol
Seems unfortunately a lot of people, the wrong people are seeing Nancy's statement as an attack on them (wrong as in it offending the wrong people) when it isn't and that she's claiming that we need the same degree of insanity on this as other products when she didn't but hey, it got you all talking so there's that lol
Fact remains, there are some people, not saying anyone in this chat, not naming anyone specific on ecf, who vape that are obnoxious douche bags. The fact that we all vape does not make us all the same kinds of people anymore than being classified as human makes us all the same kinds of human being and while that may sound patronising, it is a fact. If you can say you haven't come across a fellow vaper who you wouldn't pee on if they were on fire then you may as well claim that you've never met a fellow human being who wasn't in your estimation, worth the sweat of a dead dog's testicles either. Trying to say either really would make you a comatose pacifist lol
As to the science, we know a lot but we still don't know everything and we live in a heavily polluted world wherein people can be sensitive to all kinds of things and regardless of said sensitivities, someone vaping honey beez in a crowded restaurant right now without permission to do so wouldn't be the best thing for our public image if they were asked not to and refused cause they chose to behave like a petulant teenager. Now again, not making accusations, merely presenting a hypothetical scenario, actually a semi tame one really. In the last two years, we've seen two cases of ecig users refusing to cease using their ecigs on air planes when asked not to, these stories made the press and did not help our cause in the public eye whatsoever. It is this kind of behaviour I believe Nancy was referring to. At this point in time for example, we do not congregate en mass without permission in establishments on a whim with a vapers meet. We arrange with the establishment beforehand. Not to say we may not need to organise some public disobedience in the future, things may very well get that bad in the not too distant future when it comes to regulation, I hope not cause at this point in time, the general public does not know all the things that we do when it comes to nicotine, its therapeutic qualities for some conditions, how just damn nice it is for those who enjoy it and how much like caffeine as a stimulant it is. Getting the public perception to this point is going to take time, very likely years but recent events like the FDA opening up the recommended usage time of NRT is a massive hurdle removed and step in the right direction (not to be read as being in favor of the FDA, they can kiss my chuddies, they are a disgrace and need an overhaul or to be replaced) in order that this can be achieved.
As to regulation and taxation. Sorry but anyone who thinks they aren't happening is a self delusional muppet imo and is wasting their time protesting against it ever being rather than accepting that and fighting for it to not be either a sin tax and or for it to be anywhere near the level currently being levied on combustable tobacco. While in a perfect world, governments would conduct themselves with more common sense and spend money more wisely, the fact remains, they do not. As such, we cannot expect ecigs to replace tobacco, which I truly believe they can do both culturally and factually when it comes to market share, without them also replacing it as a tax revenue, not alone but partially along with other THR products. Now, if you accept that as a concept, how would this be achieved? You start the tax off low, way below the rate of tobacco currently, something that is reasonable and that reflects the current market share it has of the market compared to tobacco and other THR produce. Now as the years go by and the tax on this rises with inflation, again, reasonably, not dramatically, and the taxes on tobacco do too, the market share in sales of one to the other products, such as ecigs, shifts, the percentage of what governments take in tax remains the same but is spread out across all the products with combustable tobacco always remaining that which is taxed most heavily. Would I prefer no tax other than sales and for this to be like coffee? Sure but not gonna happen, not for a LONG time, more in this world needs to change for that to be achievable in many of our lifetimes lol
Any regulation that any government comes up with is not gonna stop me, anyone I know or the majority of the users on ecf from vaping the way we do right now because we are not vaping the way the majority of ecig users do, we are a minority, we are self reliant, we know how to make the things we use if need be and in many cases, do anyway. We could have been vaping 30 years ago had we known of the concept of this and know what we do now, the same ingredients were available then as they are now, the only real exception to that as far as the components go is battery technology. We have come as far as we have done in such a short space of time and ain't stopping any time soon due to the ingenuity of the members of our community which include our best vendors so even in the face of regulation effecting how we can buy stuff, I would fully expect our vendors to get creative as they always have done as I would each of us in how we vape and help one another, again as we always have done in the face of adversity or pursuit of an idea of how to do something or simply cause someone was in need and the giving spirit of Vapers comes shining through to save the day!
I cannot state this enough or more strongly, WE ARE NOT THE MAJORITY! Now, since I've yelled that, I shall present a how we are not the majority. Take a company like Njoy or Joyetech, their customer bases alone, individually in the USA, are very likely larger than the entire world population of mod/apv users. That's right, we are very likely less than 5% of the total population of ecig users on this planet. That is the population numbers we fight with, against incredible odds and money, every day and we often win, that is absolutely amazing and inspiring beyond words to me. Given everything I've said, whether you agree or not, we fight not specifically for ourselves, we fight for the rights of that majority, the uninformed, those who use disposables, 510/808d stick batteries and know of nothing larger than an eGo, we fight for the millions of smokers who have yet to try this solution that could very possibly save their lives but for the fact that they haven't tried it and it is not as easily available to them at the current time wherever they may reside and lastly, cause of the stigma that may exist about this product due to the crap talked by some of the anti tobacco/smoking zealots in this world who have no joy in their lives whatsoever.
Do I want to see any regulation not hinder what I can buy currently, not effect any vendors who I buy from and how they operate their businesses? Of course but I have faith that should it do so due to how that majority are regulated since as market share, they are the largest, and who is being looked at by government, I will survive cause the individual components of what I use to vape will and have always been, legal and again, the ingenuity of our community is such that it will continue, even if a little different. I fight but I do not stress over myself, I stress for that majority who if their lives are made more difficult, will return to combustable tobacco due to not knowing how to vape any other way than they may do now and said knowledge for some could literally be as simple as that you can refill a cartomizer. Make no mistake about it, there are people who vape who are not aware that they can refill, there are people who exist on disposable ecigs, tons of people that dual use, all of which changes nothing with regard to them being fellow vapers I care about and want their product as much if not more than mine, to always be available and to not be taxed/regulated to death.
Public perception of ecigs, be they teeny or massive, how we represent ourselves, is important and while I wish it were not the case when it comes to some people who do things I disagree with, it is a sad fact that we live in a world of sensationalism and propagation of fear when it comes to journalism and any and all opportunities to paint anything with a brush in a bad way to gain viewers, website hits and so on, are employed, whether it be ecigs, breakfast cereal or someone wearing yoga pants in the mall with granny panties underneath, we live in a world where anything is up for grabs. No one is saying don't be free, no one is saying most ecig users do not operate with common courtesy but some people are douche bags in how they behave and to be honest, fact that they vape has nothing to do with them behaving that way but it would be nice if they didn't do that while holding an ecig in their hand. Douchebaggery as behaviour, is not reserved only for those who do not vape lol
Gave you links to help your friend. If someone has a rare allergy they should deal with it personally. Some may take it too far but we aren't acting entitled we are acting like a group of people who are systemically being shunned from society. There is no gray area here, they don't want to "kinda" ban vaping, they want it gone completely . They also don't want to "fairly" tax it, they want to throw the absurd tobacco cigarette taxes on it which only exist because society has deemed it ok to punish smokers. Let's see what they do when they put a 900% tax on fast food since obesity is a much larger problem in America than anything else. It's not o.k. to single out people who are overweight but it's totally cool to publicly denounce smokers.
If there is a small minority that fuel their fire by vaping publicly in less than courteous ways, it's not good but also nothing can stop them. Taking everyone's rights from them because of a minority is the kind of broad stroke lawmaking that generally doesn't work out and causes black markets.
If kids are vaping 9v batteries their parents should be fined or arrested not our rights removed. Most vapers WANT age restrictions put in place to avoid public sale to minors. If they would stop trying to pack in bans and taxes with that simple law we'd be a lot further along right now.
I forgot to add that at least in CA all they are trying to do is restrict e-cig smoking in the same way that analogs are restricted. There is no mention in the current bill about limiting the amount of nicotine. If there is, please show me where it is contained and I will gladly voice my concerns. Like I mentioned before, I really don't have a problem with be restricted as to where I can smoke. It's not that big of a deal. Yes I have rights, but so do others.
You do know this study has been discredited, as far as it's conclusion, right?? Because of the "trace" levels found, it has been shown to be akin to the FDA's study in 2009 that they held up as a "warning sign" when the actual results were found not to be harmful. I am inclinded to trust and follow the lead of the experts such as Bill Godshaw and Dr Michael Siegle of Boston University over what one of us says here.
Just remember one thing divided WE fall. If we infight we lose power and the ANTS and FDA and BP all want that.
If nicotine is released into the air and you are breathing that air how is it not going into your bloodstream? Isn't that what you are doing when you are vaping?
That in itself is a regulation, which you just said you didn't want. You can't have it both ways.
Discredited by whom? A proponent for the other side? Like I said, anybody can do a study and have it discredited by the opponent and state that theirs is the only study that should count. Until we get an un-biased study by somebody that everyone can agree upon there will always be doubt. I would rather err on the side of caution when this happens.
I would suggest you go to CASAA and read the various studies and laws trying to be enacted nationwide but I don't get the impression that it really matters that much to you. Those experts who post here and in publications like the Tobacco Harm Reduction Journel have the access to people in the political arena that we don't. They have stated numerous times that the FDA wants to ban vaping completely if possible as they have already tried to do 6 times before. If that fails, they will work with BT to limit it to the products they make with strict limits on nicotine level and delivery method. If you want to wait around to take a stand, that is your decision. Many of us do not feel we have that luxury.
If worst came to worst can't we import pv and gear from china?? I would hate to have to do that but govt is mad with power and I'm scared.
I'm an old f*rt and I used to do exactly the same thing with smoking and you see where that got us. The only reason they do this crap to smokers and now vapors is because it's become acceptable by society. If it were truly about people's health then they would take other things more seriously like drugs, alcohol, air quality, global warming, water quality, food quality. All these things are a joke. We don't really know what's in our air, water, or food and nothing effective gets done about any of this, but OMG let's stop all vaping and smoking. That's the main reason I don't vape in public. I think the more it gets put in people faces the quicker we lose our rights.
"Land of the free", you're kidding right. I'm old enough to remember when we were free. We lost our freedom and replaced it with arrogance.
Funny I don't remember saying that. I want responsible, fair regulation that allows us to continue using this life saving invention. It's responsible to not allow minors free access to it, removing it from every public area because of someone's allergy to cinnamon is not.
As far as taxing it, whatever you pay tax wise for anything else would be fine by me but not sin tax.
Banning it from all non smoking areas is irresponsible as it puts millions of vapers back at risk due to inhalation of a known toxic chemicals that affects EVERYONE it touches.
Who is this other side you are talking about?? Are you trying to discredit well respected long time anti-smoking advocates/doctors like Bill Godshaw and Dr Michael Siegel?? There have been unbiased studies done that have proven conclusively that second hand vapor is not harmful. It's your kind of thinking that got us to this point with the study done by the FDA - you know, our own federal government. That study proved that the substances in eliquid was not harmful, but they basically just lied about the result - and I'm sure you believed them. I strongly suggest you educate yourself on these studies and the history behind the efforts to have vaping banned.
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