Drop the Entitled Attitude

[Calicam]

Vapevangelism, I like that. I'm pretty eveangelical in general about things...to the point I sometimes annoy people...lookin at you my dear wife

A couple weeks ago I was walking by the smoking area, nobody saw me but I overheard them talking about vaping....my job here is done, haha!

 

[Soundsystem00]

I dont understand the whole professional thing. It wasnt too long ago where people were allowed to smoke indoors at work. Society is just soft and politically correct these days.

The people who complain about vaping are the same people who chug down coke, coffee, sugar everday and dont eat enough vegetables.

These are the same people who allow their kids to eat mc donalds, drink coke, sugary snacks, processed foods, candy etc without a second thought. It seems every hypocritical to complain about vapor.

Society is just ignorant about a lot of things and we know once something is banned, its almost impossible to unban them.

Although I agree with some of what you said about us not knowing of these things are completely safe.

I dont mind too much if we cant vape indoors, Im use to it, but I think knee jerk reactions or people mistaking vaping for smoking, or just trying to be "professional" is being silly and a simple sign saying "ecigs allowed/cigarettes not allowed" is a better option.

Awesome post.

 

[DrMA]

Nonesense! I'm entitled to be entitled

 

[Ansah]

Awesome post.

It is an awesome post, and that you recognize it as awesome is awesome!

So-called "professionalism" in appearance is nothing more than an artificial, commercially-imposed aesthetic maintained out of a combination of fear and a need to control the personal expression of others. I read about a minor league hockey player the other day who's team had some sort of "locks for tots" charity drive. The players were growing their hair out all season as a way of calling attention to their charity and encourage people to donate. Cool. But this particular player was unable to participate in the hair growth because he is also a grad student doing an internship in a "professional" office environment. While I don't blame him personally, I think it's very sad...

... Vaping, whether perceived to be materially harmful to the atmosphere or not, is seen by many to break an unspoken rule regarding the degree of conformity one is expected to adhere to if one wishes to have the "privilege" of being a wage-slave in the oligarchic structure. Even if it's not illegal, it certainly looks like it should be.

 

[Ardo]

I am mixed on this. While I think it's important to get seen vaping so that we can spread the knowledge about gaping not idiots like Rachel Ray, it's not as simple as walking into any place and using our PVs.

Just walking into a business and vaping will backfire on us. if you want to vape ask, if youre in a big chain expect to be told no, these places are more concerned about the hundred other customers then they are about one vaper. Respect the answer you get, but be willing to answer questions too. Like it or not some people are just not going to like vaping no matter what the difference is between this and smoking. These are not just ignorant masses that need us to drop some mad knowledge on um, they are people and we should be respectful of them.

Vaping like some bunch of defiant kids will only hurt us. I will admit to stealthing here and there, but never just walking around blowing plumes of smoke in places I know it would not be allowed.

The big fight we have here is to get the rules about vaping to be based off the truth, not just a knee-jerk reaction to the "cigarette" in e-cig. Acting respectfully, and responsibly will help this cause. If you want e-cig bans to be based on the will of the owner and not law we all should remember to act like adults.

I agree with you in most parts. If there's someone to ask from right away, it's simply polite. But if no one's around I do think that it's okay vape, as long as you keep an eye on how people around you react. If you're not bothering anyone, go for it. But if you start getting wierd looks it might be better to stop.

I agree with the last paragraph 101%.

 

[zapped]

It is an awesome post, and that you recognize it as awesome is awesome!

So-called "professionalism" in appearance is nothing more than an artificial, commercially-imposed aesthetic maintained out of a combination of fear and a need to control the personal expression of others. I read about a minor league hockey player the other day who's team had some sort of "locks for tots" charity drive. The players were growing their hair out all season as a way of calling attention to their charity and encourage people to donate. Cool. But this particular player was unable to participate in the hair growth because he is also a grad student doing an internship in a "professional" office environment. While I don't blame him personally, I think it's very sad...

... Vaping, whether perceived to be materially harmful to the atmosphere or not, is seen by many to break an unspoken rule regarding the degree of conformity one is expected to adhere to if one wishes to have the "privilege" of being a wage-slave in the oligarchic structure. Even if it's not illegal, it certainly looks like it should be.

I tend to take an opposite view of this one Ansah.I can appreciate the hockey players desire to participate with the rest of the team especially for a childrens charity, I can also understand the need to keep certain professions "professional" though. I recently went into a bank and the teller had her nose pierced, her hair dyed two tone (still conservative red and blonde as opposed to hot pink or blue) and had visible tattoos on her hands.

My first thought was "Is she sleeping with the bank manager to get away with this?" because everyone else was dressed at least semi-formally/conservative in a state that has always been more traditionally conservative than not. My second thought was even worse and I actually walked out and got into my car to drive to another bank.

Personally I LOVE tattoos and that particular look on women.I'm also Pagan so I'm around that particular style more than most and have even been known to dress Goth a time or two myself.When I'm out clubbing with friends, NOT when I'm attending a job interview.

Unfortunately her appearance did nothing to inspire confidence when I was about to make a substantial deposit at their branch, however. Business is business and that's one area that I feel should always remain conservative, much like funeral directors, because both are dealing with things that should be somber, serious and respectful.

Im also not so sure Id like to see my doctor or my police officer "thugged out" with baggy jeans, gold chains and a fitted cap for the same reasons.That's just one example...insert any other ridiculous looking profession/stereotype combination here like a redneck /judge or a bouncer dressed as a nerd, and they all work just as well to give you that visual. I'd be willing to bet that more than a few would share my concerns in this regard.

Sometimes you need to take the time and effort to dress the part.

 

[Ansah]

I tend to take an opposite view of this one Ansah.

LOL. Yes, after reading your post, it does appear that our respective views on this are about as diametrically oppositional as they can be. To wit:

I can appreciate the hockey players desire to participate with the rest of the team especially for a childrens charity, I can also understand the need to keep certain professions "professional" though. I recently went into a bank and the teller had her nose pierced, her hair dyed two tone (still conservative red and blonde as opposed to hot pink or blue) and had visible tattoos on her hands.

My first thought was "Is she sleeping with the bank manager to get away with this?" because everyone else was dressed at least semi-formally/conservative in a state that has always been more traditionally conservative than not. My second thought was even worse and I actually walked out and got into my car to drive to another bank.

So you don't believe that people who dress in conservative corporate attire sleep with their bosses to get ahead in their world? Whatever thoughts you had about the teller and her appearance are just that: Your thoughts. Whenever I am in an institution that apparently allows more than average personal expression in attire, I only feel slightly more at home. But neither of our responses say anything whatsoever about the person with the dyed hair. They are just manifestations of our own prejudices, our own thoughts.

Personally I LOVE tattoos and that particular look on women.I'm also Pagan so I'm around that particular style more than most and have even been known to dress Goth a time or two myself.When I'm out clubbing with friends, NOT when I'm attending a job interview.

Personally, I dislike tattoos and those sorts particular looks on most woman. I'm essentially an orthodox Christian (though I believe all of the great religions have a similar narrative and point us toward The One, if we're open to spiritual growth). Though I hardly look conservative (since I am male, and have not had a haircut in many years), I never dress "Goth", or, for that matter, ever dress up at all, either in the "non-professional" attire of hipster party class, nor in the corporate uniform of the business class. Furthermore, I believe that it's a symptom of cultural alienation and unacceptable political oppression for working people to be compelled to dress in conformity to an aesthetic that is not their own. I just wear the simple, practical clothes that I wear ever single day, and to every place I go. If a chance to make a dollar somehow involves a dress code or a uniform, I say "no thanks.", and don't participate.

But in no way does my personal dislike of tattoos and body piercing lead me to the conclusion that anyone else ought not dress in this fashion. Why would I have a right to dictate the aesthetic sense of others?

Unfortunately her appearance did nothing to inspire confidence when I was about to make a substantial deposit at their branch, however. Business is business and that's one area that I feel should always remain conservative, much like funeral directors, because both are dealing with things that should be somber, serious and respectful.

Unfortunately, the conservative attire of the corporate uniform does nothing to inspire confidence in the integrity of the business being transacted, as all it tells me about the person is that they're presenting a visual image that is most likely is not from their own heart, one that they are quite possibly alienated from. I'm not unaware that the greatest crimes against humanity committed in the last 100+ years have been committed by people and institutions who hide behind the masks and facades of "respectability", including everything from immoral imperial wars and genocide to multibillion dollar financial rip-offs. Why would I trust a banker who looks like Bernie Madoff more than one who looks like Johnny Rotton? IMHO, it's all just part of the hype, as well as a useful coercive social mechanism to ensure that people conform to, rather than attempt to change the decrepit power structure of capitalist oligarchy.

Im also not so sure Id like to see my doctor or my police officer "thugged out" with baggy jeans, gold chains and a fitted cap for the same reasons.That's just one example...insert any other ridiculous looking profession/stereotype combination here like a redneck /judge or a bouncer dressed as a nerd, and they all work just as well to give you that visual. I'd be willing to bet that more than a few would share my concerns in this regard.

Undercover cops already wear all manner of clothing... And the standard police uniform already makes it abundantly clear that they have an authority to use physical force that the average citizen does not. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just that the particulars of the clothes are pretty much irrelevant. And I'm not necessarily against uniforms that ID various public servants such as police and firefighters. Maybe Congress should be required to wear bright red uniforms and funny hats like they do at Burger King.

Sometimes you need to take the time and effort to dress the part.

Perhaps sometimes we need to take the time and effort to examine the obstacles inherent in changing the society for the better, and assess what it means to wear costumes for the purpose of subsuming our individual selves into the ever-expanding array of officious, bureaucratically-defined roles in the conduct of our relationships with one another.

 

[thejeff]

Professionalism always has been, and always will be, the same single tradition: pay to play. A professional image does not revolve around attractiveness or fashion, but rather the tradition of conforming to certain standards; not for the sake of conformity, or even the loftiness of the standards, but for the sake of demonstrating the effort invested. The professional image is chaste, and the use of indulgence is direct and purposeful. The association between smoking and indulgent attitudes is traditional, as are the arts of the tobacconer and tobacconist- derivative and possibly superficial as those assumptions may be. I know for certain that I cannot deny the indulgent nature of my vaping habit, not with the variety of flavored e-liquid I keep. In a professional setting, whether I use my PV, and when, communicate discrete messages. How I dress and groom myself describe my level of investment in what I do, my attitude toward my work. My personal conduct not only communicates to my peers, but also provides feedback to my superiors. These things, taken together, are a language; Professionalism is a formal grammar with constricting rules that, by its very employment, communicates a great deal, and is a tool for communication to those educated in its use. That is why openly visible tattoos, excessive piercings, multicolored hair, and casual clothes are considered unprofessional: because you don't sit down at the table of Business to discuss what a special little flower you are.

That last sentence was rude and unfair. I won't apologize for it.

 

[Ansah]

Professionalism always has been, and always will be, the same single tradition: pay to play. A professional image does not revolve around attractiveness or fashion, but rather the tradition of conforming to certain standards; not for the sake of conformity, or even the loftiness of the standards, but for the sake of demonstrating the effort invested. The professional image is chaste, and the use of indulgence is direct and purposeful. The association between smoking and indulgent attitudes is traditional, as are the arts of the tobacconer and tobacconist- derivative and possibly superficial as those assumptions may be. I know for certain that I cannot deny the indulgent nature of my vaping habit, not with the variety of flavored e-liquid I keep. In a professional setting, whether I use my PV, and when, communicate discrete messages. How I dress and groom myself describe my level of investment in what I do, my attitude toward my work. My personal conduct not only communicates to my peers, but also provides feedback to my superiors. These things, taken together, are a language; Professionalism is a formal grammar with constricting rules that, by its very employment, communicates a great deal, and is a tool for communication to those educated in its use. That is why openly visible tattoos, excessive piercings, multicolored hair, and casual clothes are considered unprofessional: because you don't sit down at the table of Business to discuss what a special little flower you are.

That last sentence was rude and unfair. I won't apologize for it.

This is a well-written post, and I agree with every word of it, insofar as is describes exactly that language, that code of behavior that underlies and fosters the pseudo-legitimacy of the ethic of institutional money and power, which is then exploited for the furtherance of dominance via the exploitation and oppression of both each other and of others, who due to either lack of ability, opportunity or disinclination are not at the table to "pay to play."

That the world is in a state of perpetual war, sociopathic architecture and impending environmental catastrophe is in no small part due to the conduct of business as usual by self-important, smart people in self-important, smart business suits compartmentalizing their souls and surrendering themselves to the cult of this pursuit, conducting themselves by the ethical norms of the structures they inhabit, and navigating upwardly through the hierarchical levels as best they can.

There is much wisdom in the old, hyperbolic slogan: Turn on, tune in, and drop out, if we would take the time and trouble to understand what this means, and I would proffer that every business table in every corner of the world would do well to suspend business as usual for the purpose of discussing what special little flowers we are, and begin the task of changing and dismantling the control mechanisms that currently serve the false gods of capital, rather than the water and sunlight in which we flourish.

 

[cowboy6591]

This brings up my sentiments here;
I don't think I have an entitlement attitude, What I do have is an " I Am not going to coddle to ignorance stupidity and Political Correctness attitude". Excuse me for exorcising my right to think freely for myself and not allow others or oppressive government PC(political correct) slobs to do that job for me.
That's not entitlement it is freedom of thought, freedom from ...... and wusses that refuse to read up on any of this stuff.

My only health concern is the possibility of metal ferrous particles that burn off the heating element building up in my liver or lungs over a period of 20 years. We need to change the way we heat the fluids in my opinion. That could be the sleeping gorilla waiting to wake. Ceramic coated elements would be a good start, but ultrasonics would be a 100% ferrous free answer.


Sorry but I live on a planet that consists of 98% ...... that take orders and rely on external authorities religion government schools etc... to do our own thinking because most people are too lazy and aloof/lethargic to think for themselves; and damned if I am going to coddle to that SHEEPLE syndrome that Kings rely on from their villagers to tax and control and jail.
If I say it's not bad for anyone, If I say it's out of sight and not an impolite time I VAPE ON. TUFF!!

I agree one cannot feel or exorcise entitlement when he or she is standing on someone elses real estate or property. Respect comes into play, no I don't puff on elevators, sterile environments out in the open. Like hospitals, the mens room locked in a stall, vape on, but standing at the urinal with a crowd of people? restraint prevails, I also agree that a total punk attitude when cornered or questioned will get these PV's banned in a heartbeat. But I don't like the mousy look and feel some of these conversations end up being. Sorry for my Liberal musings. Liberty , Freedom and Justice for all radar in full tilt here. Respect = YES, Oppression from fake Sappington Political Correct elite = NO!!
Fascism= NO OK you get it now.

 

[thejeff]

This brings up my sentiments here;
I don't think I have an entitlement attitude, What I do have is an " I Am not going to coddle to ignorance stupidity and Political Correctness attitude". Excuse me for exorcising my right to think freely for myself and not allow others or oppressive government PC(political correct) slobs to do that job for me.
That's not entitlement it is freedom of thought, freedom from ...... and wusses that refuse to read up on any of this stuff.

My only health concern is the possibility of metal ferrous particles that burn off the heating element building up in my liver or lungs over a period of 20 years. We need to change the way we heat the fluids in my opinion. That could be the sleeping gorilla waiting to wake. Ceramic coated elements would be a good start, but ultrasonics would be a 100% ferrous free answer.


Sorry but I live on a planet that consists of 98% ...... that take orders and rely on external authorities religion government schools etc... to do our own thinking because most people are too lazy and aloof/lethargic to think for themselves; and damned if I am going to coddle to that SHEEPLE syndrome that Kings rely on from their villagers to tax and control and jail.
If I say it's not bad for anyone, If I say it's out of sight and not an impolite time I VAPE ON. TUFF!!

I agree one cannot feel or exorcise entitlement when he or she is standing on someone elses real estate or property. Respect comes into play, no I don't puff on elevators, sterile environments out in the open. Like hospitals, the mens room locked in a stall, vape on, but standing at the urinal with a crowd of people? restraint prevails, I also agree that a total punk attitude when cornered or questioned will get these PV's banned in a heartbeat. But I don't like the mousy look and feel some of these conversations end up being. Sorry for my Liberal musings. Liberty , Freedom and Justice for all radar in full tilt here. Respect = YES, Oppression from fake Sappington Political Correct elite = NO!!
Fascism= NO OK you get it now.

xkcd: Sheeple

 

[sam12six]

Damn, this has been a good discussion to read. I want to jump in and argue, but (1) everyone's been pretty respectful about disagreements and (2) I agree with at least part of everyone's arguments.

Also, I'm pretty shocked. I've been away from the forum for a while and one of the reasons I left was that the mere implication that our knowledge of what long term health effects heating PG+VG+Flavoring+nicotine and deliberately inhaling the vapor all day every day didn't exist yet and that telling people it is completely harmless is irresponsible would be met with droves of angry people acting like you showed up and suggested that vaping be banned everywhere. It is a relief to see no such responses have appeared in this discussion. I guess the vaping killed all those angry people (relax, joke).

Anyway, I'm completely in agreement that we should be courteous. I believe one of the reasons sweeping smoking bans have been so easily passed everywhere is that everyone has experienced in some way incredibly discourteous smokers. One of the most memorable examples for me was heading out on a lark to an isolated and pristine lake with a buddy to fish for some bass. He's looking around in awe at the beauty of the place and says something along the lines of, "Man, it's so awesome to be in a place people haven't screwed up yet.", then 3 seconds later, he flicked his cigarette .... into the water. This was a good friend of mine but hearing that sizzle immediately after what he said, I gave very serious consideration to breaking his jaw. I was able maintain control and let him know I was going to break his jaw if he didn't fish the .... out immediately, which he did, so all was good, but that attitude and the casualness of it - that I believe was the most powerful weapon the antis had at their disposal.

All that said, I'm also completely in agreement with the idea that we should have the right to smoke or vape or anything else and that the person who owns (or rents) the place we're doing it should have the final say on whether it's permitted and that if we act like vaping is some shameful habit, it'll be far easier to ban.

I don't have any real practical input to the discussion. I was mostly prompted to post by the absence of officious ...... telling the OP he didn't have a right to exist and to thank everyone for having a discussion that's been civil and thought provoking on a subject that concerns everyone on the forum.