Do I smell a FDA conspiracy?
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OK, went back to the materials and methods. The researchers did not report or restrict the e cigarette the individuals tested were using. Could have been a cigalike, could have been a Dicode with a Squape tank, or it could have been a 200W mod with a cloud chasing tank and build on it. The methods chosen were to try and get a cross sampling of "typical" users independent of gear. In the same way folks were using different cigarette brands and NRT users could have been using gum, patches, or sprays.
As everyone had about the same amount of nicotine in them, they were considered to be exposed "at risk" to all the toxins they measured for. NRT users and vapers showed significantly lower toxins than smokers. NRT and vaping were about the same, so no apparent downside to vaping over patching. The "losers" in the study were the dual users, whether smoking with a patch or smoking with a vape. Dual use did not lower toxins measured as compared to just smoking.
241 years ago, ECF was sooo laid back. It was before sub ohming became a thing...
We used Mammoth fur for wicks.
Back then the only way to get current into the coil was hooking it up to a lightening rod and only vaping during thunderstorms. And there was no way to know the resistance of the coil either, so who knew if it was safe with the lightening bolt used?
I read it. I understood it. I still stand by my response.
The purpose for vaping doesn't line up with isolating it.
And isolating it to study and show harm defeats the purpose of vaping itself.
That's not to say it shouldn't be done.
Just that proper observation should include harm vs. harm reduction done properly.
This would include several data sets.
The control would be never tobacco users.
The variables would be the many forms of tobacco use.
A proper data set for each.
We could show the harm produced by vaping vs. the harm produced by all the other data sets AKA variables.
As well, the last variables should be the health benefit of quitting combustible tobacco by the various means.
There are plenty trying. Even here.
I'll give it 2 weeks before the next thread where someone insists they're going to die from vaping or that nicotine is an addictive killer.
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Oh....gotcha. Kinda felt like I had a finger pointed at me for repeating an intelligent statement.
241 years ago, ECF was sooo laid back. It was before sub ohming became a thing...
We used Mammoth fur for wicks.
No, no.
Just talking points.
Same with Duane.
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Well, I enjoy a good anecdote as well as, if not more than the next person. So, I'm happy to become one. If I didn't already have established *77 year old* lung function, I likely wouldn't repeat it, but I most certainly will in a bit and my docs are going to want me to. At that time I was like, "I must be in pretty good shape for a 77 year old doing yoga everyday," but really, that's absurd, I'm 43. So, I'll be interested in that number. But, my wheeze went away in about 3 weeks, and that's objective data I can hear myself, so I'm good with it, not to mention what my doctors are saying already.
My main beef was with *some* of the studies done (wasteful) rather than total lack of any science. I'm not looking for some gigantic reasurrance here, it's obviously not available, I just wish the fairly insignificant number of studies were better in their design so that money spent on vaping studies was less.... wasteful. That was my main point, I guess.
Oh well, it is what it is!
Happy Independence, USA! I know all that constitution stuff came slighly later, maybe it's time for another amendment, though I kind of think it's covered already under the "life, liberty pursuit of happiness," bit? I think that might have been the declaration, but I was up late watching Native Fireworks last night (a tribe around here does a 3rd of July, "We were here first," set of fireworks,) and they're pretty millitant about it, so it's usually a lot of fun, but I'm not about to look it up....
Anna
My main beef was with *some* of the studies done (wasteful) rather than total lack of any science. I'm not looking for some gigantic reasurrance here, it's obviously not available, I just wish the fairly insignificant number of studies were better in their design so that money spent on vaping studies was less.... wasteful. That was my main point, I guess.
Oh well, it is what it is!
Happy Independence, USA! I know all that constitution stuff came slighly later, maybe it's time for another amendment, though I kind of think it's covered already under the "life, liberty pursuit of happiness," bit? I think that might have been the declaration, but I was up late watching Native Fireworks last night (a tribe around here does a 3rd of July, "We were here first," set of fireworks,) and they're pretty millitant about it, so it's usually a lot of fun, but I'm not about to look it up....
Anna
I remember those days................shearing the Mammoth for wicks......great part time job.........mostly weekends...........241 years ago, ECF was sooo laid back. It was before sub ohming became a thing...
We used Mammoth fur for wicks.
That was what I saw after Another read of this Study. But was wondering if Somehow I Missed It?
And that was Discouraging.
Because it is hard to assess Individual Applicability of an e-Cigarette study when the type of e-Cigarette and e-Liquids evaluated are Not stated.
Come to think of it, I think we might have an ultra cheap lung function "blow into this" thing for my kid laying around somewhere. We used it to determine how he was doing when he had attacks to figure out our next move, therapy wise. His asthma cleared up after we did 6 years of allergy injections (he was allergic to 19 things! Allergy testing is hellish, expensive, but I was not about to NOT do it *19 things!*) They say adherance to shot routine is the most important thing as far as getting rid of allergies permanently, so we didn't miss a shot, including travel, one summer I had to locate 4 different allergists in 4 different states, thank god they are willing to be all "courtesy shot" about it, rather than being established as a new patient. Hell in San Francisco, the receptionist told me it would be fine, gave me my date, and then the allergist said he didn't *do that.* He ended up doing it, more out of pity than anything else, I think, but it was some hard work.
I'm not going to look for it now, I'd probably disappoint myself as to my understanding lung function takes about 6 mo to a year to register any changes, but if I do find it, I'm happy to send it on a rotating basis to *whomever* might want it.
The device my doctor handed me looked just about as flimsy and awful as the one my son had, but they charged my insurance boucoup bucks for it...
Anna
I'm not going to look for it now, I'd probably disappoint myself as to my understanding lung function takes about 6 mo to a year to register any changes, but if I do find it, I'm happy to send it on a rotating basis to *whomever* might want it.
The device my doctor handed me looked just about as flimsy and awful as the one my son had, but they charged my insurance boucoup bucks for it...
Anna
Well, I don't think that we're at the point where testing all devices and liquids individually is going to be remotely affordable by researchers. As yes, the PMTA will help, at like, a million bucks a pop, right? So, for a study to accurately assess all devices, they'd be needing some serious funding. I do like the fact that even without restricting devices, the overall outcome for vapers was more positive. I don't see how anyone could accurately do a test of that nature with *every* device and liquid out there, it's a bit unreasonable at this point, IMO. I mean, we all think the FDA is being unreasonable with that, as they're dumping the costs onto the e-cig sellers and makers, and us, ultimately, the consumer. 
Anna
Anna
I can't publicly like that even though I understand it and found it amusing.
Then painful
Then amusing again
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And with Kat's help (in finding just this one clip):
Cigarette smoke vs e-cigarette vapour: whats the damage?, E-Cigarettes: Miracle or Menace?, 2016, Horizon - BBC Two
Grazie, bellissima.
Cigarette smoke vs e-cigarette vapour: whats the damage?, E-Cigarettes: Miracle or Menace?, 2016, Horizon - BBC Two
Grazie, bellissima.
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